UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #2

[Amonet]

They could have been arguing over the girl, or they could be arguing about money. I believe the two males were wearing hoodies, but Corrie's white jeans should show clearly on CCTV if one of the males was him, even if Corrie had got hold of a jacket or hoodie from somewhere.

As a generality, three teens hanging around on the street are less likely to have access to a car.

I have been wondering if these teens saw something and have been frightened to say. But it's hard to really get a good impression as we can't see the CCTV or exactly when they turned up/when they left?

Something isn't right with this, it doesn't lay easy with me. Why would three 'teenagers' be arguing at 0400 in the morning? 0100 outside a loud pub/club but 0400 in the morning....in a quiet residential area...? Could one of them be Corrie? It smack of another potential sighting to me!

 

[MidsummersDay]

@Midsummer

Yep, I get all that.
But (there's always a but) can I question a couple of things.
I don't know the bloomin answer, so it could be anyone's guess.

If he is waiting for a "lift" or "not a local taxi" then I ask, how special is that "lift" ?

If he is waiting. He waits for two hours !
He doesn't call anyone or text anyone. He doesn't ask to be collected earlier. Nothing.
That must be one hell of a "special lift".

If he is heading instead for a local taxi, he is slightly "off route".
But not massively off route. Not at all if he is going for a pee. And in the CCTV it "looks" like he is going for a pee.
If that is so, then we are back to being bemused..... because of that "two hour wait".

So, concentrating on the fact he might be going for a pee....and gets mugged.
When you go for a pee, you check that "the coast is clear". Especially in the place you're about to pee.
But lets say "a mugger was hiding there".
What for, to mug someone having a pee, then incapacitate then. And then kidnap them !
That's one hell of a "random mugger". And the mugger drove there !

So, in a vain attempt to "fit the jigsaw" together, I try to fit "the wait" with his later actions in cctv #2.
If he was meeting someone in the loading bay area at "half three", then that could explain his wait.
It could also explain why he walked that way when entering Short Brackland.
It may also explain how Corrie's phone got into the bin. That bin being the closet to the incident.

But.... that scenario would be "more likely" if the phone was discovered in the "refuse sorting area". And it wasn't !
This is where it gets very tricky.

We are told the refuse was "recyclable". And that it went to a "refuse sorting site".
But the refuse was neither sorted or indeed not searched by the police. So the phone is not found.
A simple answer could be, "that refuse was always destined for the incinerator. And went that weekend".

But I don't know if all this talk of "landfill" and so on, is "mis-direction".

Saying "the phone was in the refuse" would immediately indicate several things....

1. The incident likely happened in the loading area, next to the bins.
2. Corrie was separated from his phone and therefore it is highly likely he was abducted.
3. Corrie could have departed Bury in any direction, tacking his phone is useless.
4. He didn't go for a pee, he wouldn't pee next to a car parked in the loading area with a person in it

And that is why "where the phone was, is massively important" !

So what do we know, that supports ANY of that assumption ?

There was much talk of "landfill". But the refuse was incinerated.
There has been no "large scale General Public search" of the Barton Mills areas. Why risk the public.
There has been no public acceptance by the police of "third party involvement".
There is no public acceptance by the police of the possibility of "abduction".
There is "media suppression" of the story. No "investigatory reporter" has written an article.

The other "crucial" bit about "the phone in the bin" scenario is, it would add weight to the possibility that Corrie was not heading to the bin area for a pee, but instead meeting a person and a vehicle....
....and therefore his meeting was "pre-arranged". And what does that mean ? It could mean he was ambushed.

I have knowledge of the inside. I know that a transport system can be called upon to collect service personnel either;
1. Prior to an event (possibly available if arranged in advance),
2. Immediately during an event (unlikely but if it's an emergency),
3. or after an event has taken place (very unlikely but possible).

I know this to be fact. So that is why I am suggesting that Corrie MAY have rung up the base just after he was ejected from the nightclub to arrange a collection at '0330' when transport FROM the base was available and able to collect him discretely. Alternatively he could have arranged the transport on 'the old boys network' as a favour prior to leaving camp. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours....nod, nod, wink, wink. It's at taxpayers expense which is why it's not advertised!!! I am stating FACTS as I know the workings of the system!

 

[MidsummersDay]

Here is the Streetview from 2009, James which shows two interesting things. 1, an actual bin lorry going up to the bins and 2, the camera turned away to the Well street exit (we need to know if these cameras are manually operated or fixed at night)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2...4!1saO-hdU6w-0L1cwei34c4wg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But if this camera was pointing at the Short Brackland exit then it should/would capture all people and vehicles going in/out of there. The problem would still be that at best the vehicle colour/make is probably all they would get.

I reckon the key to all this is the teenagers and the bin lorry driver. If he could identify where exactly he saw the teenagers arguing that would be interesting as it would suggest THEY could have been involved AFTER the possible crime was committed.

Im going to suggest a model that doesn't involve the side of the bins theory...
Corrie relieves himself by the bins and evades the CCTV in the loading bay. It's possible looking at the pictures. Corrie exits the bin area and makes his way up Shortbrackland. A bin lorry travels DOWN Shortbrackland and passes three teenagers. The three teenagers obviously notice this and the driver does also. Corrie passes the teenagers and they mug him out of sight of everyone. The bin lorry passes the teenagers as it travels BACK UP Shortbrackland and the phone is lobbed in the back of it. (The wallet?) goes with the teenagers and Corrie ends up in an unknown place.

 

[hermes&&]

I reckon the key to all this is the teenagers and the bin lorry driver. If he could identify where exactly he saw the teenagers arguing that would be interesting as it would suggest THEY could have been involved AFTER the possible crime was committed.

Im going to suggest a model that doesn't involve the side of the bins theory...
Corrie relieves himself by the bins and evades the CCTV in the loading bay. It's possible looking at the pictures. Corrie exits the bin area and makes his way up Shortbrackland. A bin lorry travels DOWN Shortbrackland and passes three teenagers. The three teenagers obviously notice this and the driver does also. Corrie passes the teenagers and they mug him out of sight of everyone. The bin lorry passes the teenagers as it travels BACK UP Shortbrackland and the phone is lobbed in the back of it. (The wallet?) goes with the teenagers and Corrie ends up in an unknown place.

But uncle Tony had seen static camera footage that he says rules out corrie exiting on foot without being filmed.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Amonet]

For me, it's not that I am discounting it entirely at this time. It's more that I find it not high probability, if you're targeting a serviceman, to take someone in civvies from the city centre, waiting for them to have a 2-hour nap in a doorway and to then wander down to this particular place where you happen to have parked your van. I'm hesitant to say some things, as I don't want to teach criminals their trade, and I don't want to give tips to terrorists who want to attack a serviceperson...all I know is that if Corrie disappeared in the town centre it's not ideal circumstances for grabbing a serviceman. I'm trying to be mysterious on purpose, I live in an area with a base, and I live amonst service personnel, they are my neighbours and friends, and I don't want to give terrorists tips on how to kidnap one of them...but there are much more effective ways to ambush and kidnap a service person if that's your plan.

IF that's what's happened, even though I rate it as low probability, I am scared of it because it's such a horrible scenario and we've taken Corrie and his family to our hearts. But I also feel it's unhealthy for the whole country to be warned on national TV or papers that that's probably happened when 1) we don't know that it has, and 2) it leaves everyone in the nation not in a cautious state of mind but in a paranoid and terrified state of mind, and also some people would be out for revenge even before we know what's happened, and that revenge is likely to be on innocent people. Corrie's innocent, but I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't think it's healthy for 60 million people to be waiting on edge for confirmation...that would be giving terrorists the upper hand.

I know many here have pretty well discounted terrorism as a threat to individual service personnel, but it IS something which is being taken seriously. This appeared in the Express (yes, I know) yesterday:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...kill-British-soldier-live-TV-extremism-terror

But it's not the first report of this nature to have appeared in the press in recent months.

Capturing and publicly killing a serviceman on TV in the Middle East is probably less of a propaganda coup than doing so here in the UK.

Also in the Express (yes, I know) is this:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/729354/Islamic-State-German-army-Bundeswehr-terrorist-recruits

Can we be absolutely sure there are none in our own forces passing on inside information to Islamists outside?

 

[JamesKing]

I have knowledge of the inside. I know that a transport system can be called upon to collect service personnel either;
1. Prior to an event (possibly available if arranged in advance),
2. Immediately during an event (unlikely but if it's an emergency),
3. or after an event has taken place (very unlikely but possible).

I know this to be fact. So that is why I am suggesting that Corrie MAY have rung up the base just after he was ejected from the nightclub to arrange a collection at '0330' when transport FROM the base was available and able to collect him discretely. Alternatively he could have arranged the transport on 'the old boys network' as a favour prior to leaving camp. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours....nod, nod, wink, wink. It's at taxpayers expense which is why it's not advertised!!! I am stating FACTS as I know the workings of the system!

Me too ! And from inside knowledge.
And from "those three services" And from the civilian ones (getting a lift in the back of a marked Range Rover after a club is included in my experience !).

But the flaw is, he didn't make a call.
Someone else might have of course. And it's a pre planned "E egress point" for a Rock Ape that's have had "a bit too much". But the Provie would still mark down a vehicle leaving and entering. But maybe even that was their custom and was "overlooked". And if no one made the call (Corrie didn't), they'll have to be doing nightly trips for no reason whatsoever.

Never the less, it is possible. And wouldn't be made public.
But at the "exact time" a snatch is rolling up.... Corrie is being "taken" ? And by a mugger ?
As I say, anything is possible.

 

[hermes&&]

Me too ! And from inside knowledge.
And from "those three services" And from the civilian ones (getting a lift in the back of a marked Range Rover after a club is included in my experience !).

But the flaw is, he didn't make a call.
Someone else might have of course. And it's a pre planned "E egress point" for a Rock Ape that's have had "a bit too much". But the Provie would still mark down a vehicle leaving and entering. But maybe even that was their custom and was "overlooked". And if no one made the call (Corrie didn't), they'll have to be doing nightly trips for no reason whatsoever.

Never the less, it is possible. And wouldn't be made public.
But at the "exact time" a snatch is rolling up.... Corrie is being "taken" ? And by a mugger ?
As I say, anything is possible.

If uncle Tony is correct the only way out of that area is in the unaccounted for car. That rules out the teenagers on foot who uncle Tony would have seen on the CCTV had they been there.



Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 178385]

I have transcribed the radio/podcast interview with Tony here, as it's a bit easier to scan through text than to skip through an audio file to confirm details.

 

[MidsummersDay]

Me too ! And from inside knowledge.
And from "those three services" And from the civilian ones (getting a lift in the back of a marked Range Rover after a club is included in my experience !).

But the flaw is, he didn't make a call.
Someone else might have of course. And it's a pre planned "E egress point" for a Rock Ape that's have had "a bit too much". But the Provie would still mark down a vehicle leaving and entering. But maybe even that was their custom and was "overlooked". And if no one made the call (Corrie didn't), they'll have to be doing nightly trips for no reason whatsoever.

Never the less, it is possible. And wouldn't be made public.
But at the "exact time" a snatch is rolling up.... Corrie is being "taken" ? And by a mugger ?
As I say, anything is possible.

An ad hoc collection from a local airfield can always be considered as a E egress. There's your advance booking straightaway...and not on paper until the last minute (or not as this case could be). Additionally to that, that could be the unaccounted for car? It couldn't find Corrie so RTBd. You wouldn't publicly release details of a mil-plate now would you??

 

[JamesKing]

An ad hoc collection from a local airfield can always be considered as a E egress. There's your advance booking straightaway...and not on paper until the last minute (or not as this case could be). Additionally to that, that could be the unaccounted for car? It couldn't find Corrie so RTBd. You wouldn't publicly release details of a mil-plate now would you??

In that case.... it's scarier than we think !

If it's known that there is a "courtesy bus" arriving at a certain time. And a bunch of half cut Rock Apes get on it.
Then that location has already been "compromised" !

A lone Rocky turns up. Sees what he thinks is "transport". And he's tagged and bagged ....and he's gone.

P.S. I use the term "compromised" in the military sense, because what you are "speculating" would point even more to that conclusion !

 

[Amonet]

To work through a possible abduction scenario, I thought about this the other night.

What I envisage is grabbing someone, bundling them into the back of a van. As soon as the van doors are almost closed, the driver starts driving. Inside the back of the van, the abductee is slapped around to subdue him, then his hands and feet are tied, then check pockets for phone and wallet (for ID), then dump the phone. So the phone gets dumped maybe ten minutes traveling time post-ambush. I would just hand the phone to the driver, or someone in the passenger seat and have them throw the phone out the window into bushes at the side of the road, and then I'd keep driving.

Does this sound reasonable? How does it fit with what we do know?

 

[suzyjackson]

]But they stated very early on that no third party was involved and that this was nothing to do with his job[/B]. In the light of Marham neither statement should have been made without good reason. And the family have taken issue with those statements.

So early on they should have taken all CCTV, alerted mi5. Put an alert out to ports, accepted more help from other agencies, and told the public we are not ruling out a link to Marham so every body be careful especially military guys out by themselves.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

I know Uncle Tony said this but as far as I can see it's not in the official police updates. Does anyone know when it was publically said that the police had dismissed 3rd party involvement

 

[Amonet]

The police didn't publically rule out 3rd party involvement. That was in Tony's update one day, but then a day or two later Nicola did an interview where she was sitting with a police officer and Nicola retracted that allegation and said it was best forgotten about.

I know Uncle Tony said this but as far as I can see it's not in the official police updates. Does anyone know when it was publically said that the police had dismissed 3rd party involvement

 

[OrlandoJames]

I know Uncle Tony said this but as far as I can see it's not in the official police updates. Does anyone know when it was publically said that the police had dismissed 3rd party involvement

They never completely dismissed 3rd party involvement. They just said that there was no evidence to back it up. The phrasing of their statement did imply that they considered 3rd party involvement to be a low probability, but as far as I'm aware they never actually dismissed the idea completely.

 

[suzyjackson]

If you look back through this dialogue, I came up with a potential model that would explain it. Yes it was based on speculation but looking at this walkway video it seems to fit even more (it still may not be the definitive answer):

1. Corrie refuses a lift from the American as he's already arranged a lift. The collection point is behind SUPERDRUG near the bins as this gives easy access DOWN Shortbrackland and back UP Shortbrackland (work out a possible destination from here).

2. He CAN'T be heading towards McDonalds for a burger as he's just eaten.

3. He could have spotted someone in the little alley adjacent to the Nailbar which would explain why he turned around. It would also explain the possible movement in the second video.

4. 0330 seems an easy, throw away time for a collection by vehicle. So does 0315 but 'half three' trips off the tongue easier.

5. If he is mugged behind the bins its out of sight of the CCTV camera. That suggests that the 'perp' is aware of the movements and location of said CCTV camera.

6. If he was meeting work friends from the nightclub which he left, that suggests to me that the location he was last seen in is 'off route' for the taxi to collect him from as the nightclub is in a different routing network. Possible but not probable in my mind.

7. This leaves me to think he's NOT being collected by a local taxi. That he's NOT heading anywhere other than back to base. That his phone is SEPERATE to him.

My comments (although contentious) are designed to stimulate different thought processes we can ask ourselves positive questions and promote healthy critique.

I do agree that this is a possible scenario but imo if Corrie was offered a lift "now" as opposed to at 3.30am which involves over 2 hours hanging about in the street without a coat or shelter he's accept the lift "now" and message the other person to say he no longer needed a lift. The only reason to wait imo would be if the 3.30 left was from a girl he really wanted to hang around for and, if this is the case, why hasn't she come forward?

JMO

 

[suzyjackson]

Something isn't right with this, it doesn't lay easy with me. Why would three 'teenagers' be arguing at 0400 in the morning? 0100 outside a loud pub/club but 0400 in the morning....in a quiet residential area...? Could one of them be Corrie? It smack of another potential sighting to me!

Something drug related maybe, might explain why they didn't come forward. That said it wouldn't be an unusual thing for drunk teens at a house party to spill onto the road where I live and too much drink would often lead to loud shouting or arguements.

BSE town centre may be a nicer area though

 

[suzyjackson]

The police didn't publically rule out 3rd party involvement. That was in Tony's update one day, but then a day or two later Nicola did an interview where she was sitting with a police officer and Nicola retracted that allegation and said it was best forgotten about.

Thank you, I hadn't remembered Nicola saying that.

IMO Uncle Tony should publically make that clear too

 

[suzyjackson]

I have knowledge of the inside. I know that a transport system can be called upon to collect service personnel either;
1. Prior to an event (possibly available if arranged in advance),
2. Immediately during an event (unlikely but if it's an emergency),
3. or after an event has taken place (very unlikely but possible).

I know this to be fact. So that is why I am suggesting that Corrie MAY have rung up the base just after he was ejected from the nightclub to arrange a collection at '0330' when transport FROM the base was available and able to collect him discretely. Alternatively he could have arranged the transport on 'the old boys network' as a favour prior to leaving camp. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours....nod, nod, wink, wink. It's at taxpayers expense which is why it's not advertised!!! I am stating FACTS as I know the workings of the system!

Thanks for the inside perspective, one question if I may, would the base let the police and family know that this had happened, if it had?

 

[suzyjackson]

To work through a possible abduction scenario, I thought about this the other night.

What I envisage is grabbing someone, bundling them into the back of a van. As soon as the van doors are almost closed, the driver starts driving. Inside the back of the van, the abductee is slapped around to subdue him, then his hands and feet are tied, then check pockets for phone and wallet (for ID), then dump the phone. So the phone gets dumped maybe ten minutes traveling time post-ambush. I would just hand the phone to the driver, or someone in the passenger seat and have them throw the phone out the window into bushes at the side of the road, and then I'd keep driving.

Does this sound reasonable? How does it fit with what we do know?

It does sound reasonable but wouldn't that vehicle have shown up on the CCTV somewhere along the escape route as the bin lorry ddi?

 

[c4nd1_83]

Thanks for the inside perspective, one question if I may, would the base let the police and family know that this had happened, if it had?

Inside information? With 20 years in the Armed forces, I have never heard of this. Unless your at a military function on camp and they are taking you home after. And even then the last pickups are around 2:30. Normally carried out by junior ranks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk