UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Sweeper2000]

Apart from the facts, am I right in recalling that the prosecution did not make a great deal of these notes - certainly did not depend on them?

not particularly. they did go over the process of how those notes ended in her new house though. did involve being shuttled to and from work and from her old place to the new, also how those notes were not disposed of despite having a shredder in the house of which lucy said she didn't know she had one.

I have to admit, I felt bloody sorry for that shredder. I even went on ebay and looked to see if her parents were selling it for legal funds. I did not find it, i looked on gumtree and did not find it I even went on fb marketplace and did not find it. I even named it "shreddy". tis with much regret i let that love be lost.

 

[May72031]

They were not.
She never mentioned any therapist in court and neither did her counsel.
This was a lie spun by Sarah Knapton ( amongst others ) at the Telegraph.

A lie that Letbyists just can't stop repeating.

 

[Tortoise]

Apart from the facts, am I right in recalling that the prosecution did not make a great deal of these notes - certainly did not depend on them?

A few minutes in cross-examination (based on the live updates that were coming through) and same in closing speech.

 

[marynnu]

on what planet is ‘i am evil, i did this’ written in a notebook alongside something along the lines of ‘i am innocent, i never did this’, both of which were written after she has been investigated and accused of committing the crimes and has been advised by a psychologist to write down her feelings as a way of venting… how is that a remotely compelling piece of evidence, one way or the other?

It’s not. If anything, it actually points to her innocence if you think about it logically. Why on earth would a cold-hearted killer write down ‘I am guilty’ etc in a fit of guilt-tripping?

Was she beginning to regret her decision to kill so many babies? I’m sorry, but I don’t believe the type of person who has it in them to commit such crimes suddenly starts to feel sorry for themselves privately. I know when we think someone is an evil person, it’s easy to twist any circumstantial evidence to confirm their monstrousness, but it just doesn’t sound remotely plausible, on its own as a standalone piece of evidence.

Perhaps you can gloss over it as simply yet another abomination once you’ve decided she’s guilty. But I personally can’t imagine Harold Shipman or Jeffrey Dahmer keeping a journal in which they seem personally conflicted over their own moral rectitude and culpability.

On the other hand, I can totally imagine this being the confused and dissociated thoughts of a strung out person wrongly accused of the worst crime imaginable.

She did not write anything like 'I am innocent, I never did this'. 'I've done nothing wrong' is as near as it got.

 

[Moll]

not particularly. they did go over the process of how those notes ended in her new house though. did involve being shuttled to and from work and from her old place to the new, also how those notes were not disposed of despite having a shredder in the house of which lucy said she didn't know she had one.

I have to admit, I felt bloody sorry for that shredder. I even went on ebay and looked to see if her parents were selling it for legal funds. I did not find it, i looked on gumtree and did not find it I even went on fb marketplace and did not find it. I even named it "shreddy". tis with much regret i let that love be lost.

Sorry, Sweeper, I wasn't clear, I meant her writings on notes 'I am evil' etc. I think the handover notes took up more time.

 

[crespo29]

Reading through the comments, there are strong opinions. I do not have any strong opinions, I am not a so called 'Letbyist' but I am questioning the doubts that have been reported after the trial. How can anyone be certain given the doubts and the unwarrented jail sentences given to innocent people. There doesn't seem to have been any evidence that has been directly linked to LL, that is the reason I have doubts. There are people who seem certain that LL has been unjustly convicted. Has she?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I get where u r coming from. We did in the trial go through and see other potentials so they were always there, however for me and imo it was the collective nature of the charges and events that made it seem criminal. other explanations yes maybe but other explanations for the series of events and things I really doubt it.

A lot of the issues are now coming about due to the bias reporting of the trial as well. It’s been thrown in our faces with this case that all media outlets potentially push their own angle. The press reporting was not impartial and excluded lots of information, who you read and followed mattered. We then have the opposite with the inquiry sharing the majority of documents and testimony to make comparisons and note discrepancies.
ETA: whilst not also discussing things specific to LL’s trial eg the notes

 

[Ruthbullock]

is that the report from the new panel? in which case i would refer to my earlier post that the highest levels of nursing authority hve checked it and it seems sounds, and on its way there was checked by inbetweens as well. I am cofident the treating doctors knew what they were doing as they have not been cririticised by our quhtorities have they? with a few exceptions raised by dr bohin.

They have been criticised in the parents closing statements

 

[Ruthbullock]

I’m glad both sets of closing statements from the parents have mentioned the consultants should have reported to LADO. I still struggle to comprehend how they had that many concerns, yet failed to make a simple phone call which would have removed the burden of accountability.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m glad both sets of closing statements from the parents have mentioned the consultants should have reported to LADO. I still struggle to comprehend how they had that many concerns, yet failed to make a simple phone call which would have removed the burden of accountability.

is it a question of self preservation though? we have heard of other people in this case that made preparations in regards to potentially losing their jobs. I can certainly see them perceiving a threat by calling the police, having the police swoop in and close everything down at the unit, then perhaps the police not finding anything as I don't think it was ever partoculalry clear that she was indeed murdering and ahrming babies. maybe the docs thought that if they pushed for the action to take root at the hospital they would be relatively safer in their jobs.

 

[Furore]

Tbh I’m not sure anyone except a safeguarding lead or specialist paediatrician would even know the role of LADO. JMOO but most healthcare professionals with regular child contact would complete safeguarding children level 2, in which LADO does not feature as a concept or thing to contact.

I am not clear who was safeguarding lead at CoCh; I do indeed think procedures were not followed formally.

MOO but clinicians were so gaslit and intimidated into not contacting external agencies, they didn’t feel anyone believed them, and it’s not like they had cctv - indeed this thread alone shows even with convictions they are not believed - in his Thirlwell evidence the detective said how evident it was the paediatricians were emotionally relieved to have someone take them seriously - important to recognise traditional treatment of whistleblowers in NHS. I think without any experience of it directly it probably doesn’t make much sense. Plus Letby was off duty for long periods, and under investigation - it was indeed her threatened return to work that pushed the clinicians into it.

I think we have been here before though. Either way, police were contacted late and the reasons have been explored in the Thirlwell Inquiry. I have no doubt recommendations will be made to improve training and confidence in reporting such issues for future.

 

[Ruthbullock]

is it a question of self preservation though? we have heard of other people in this case that made preparations in regards to potentially losing their jobs. I can certainly see them perceiving a threat by calling the police, having the police swoop in and close everything down at the unit, then perhaps the police not finding anything as I don't think it was ever partoculalry clear that she was indeed murdering and ahrming babies. maybe the docs thought that if they pushed for the action to take root at the hospital they would be relatively safer in their jobs.

Potentially yes a lot of their actions were self preservation, I dont necessarily believe this was intentional on their part- but more caused by their own denial that this situation was happening. The annoying thing about not informing the LADO is they are impartial, they may have taken no action based on what they were told, but also would have removed their individual culpability for informing the police and it would not have been a personal referral.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Tbh I’m not sure anyone except a safeguarding lead or specialist paediatrician would even know the role of LADO. JMOO but most healthcare professionals with regular child contact would complete safeguarding children level 2, in which LADO does not feature as a concept or thing to contact.

I am not clear who was safeguarding lead at CoCh; I do indeed think procedures were not followed formally.

MOO but clinicians were so gaslit and intimidated into not contacting external agencies, they didn’t feel anyone believed them, and it’s not like they had cctv - indeed this thread alone shows even with convictions they are not believed - in his Thirlwell evidence the detective said how evident it was the paediatricians were emotionally relieved to have someone take them seriously - important to recognise traditional treatment of whistleblowers in NHS. I think without any experience of it directly it probably doesn’t make much sense. Plus Letby was off duty for long periods, and under investigation - it was indeed her threatened return to work that pushed the clinicians into it.

I think we have been here before though. Either way, police were contacted late and the reasons have been explored in the Thirlwell Inquiry. I have no doubt recommendations will be made to improve training and confidence in reporting such issues for future.

Why do you believe they shouldn’t know about a LADO????? Apart from one person on this post saying they worked with children and had never heard of it- it’s common knowledge for anyone safeguarding children, it’s pushed in all safeguarding training and posters are displayed on work notice boards. It’s mentioned over and over again in the inquiry and I have yet to see any justification for them not being contacted, the only justification I can think of is that there concerns were reflective, rather than in the moment.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Tbh I’m not sure anyone except a safeguarding lead or specialist paediatrician would even know the role of LADO. JMOO but most healthcare professionals with regular child contact would complete safeguarding children level 2, in which LADO does not feature as a concept or thing to contact.

I am not clear who was safeguarding lead at CoCh; I do indeed think procedures were not followed formally.

MOO but clinicians were so gaslit and intimidated into not contacting external agencies, they didn’t feel anyone believed them, and it’s not like they had cctv - indeed this thread alone shows even with convictions they are not believed - in his Thirlwell evidence the detective said how evident it was the paediatricians were emotionally relieved to have someone take them seriously - important to recognise traditional treatment of whistleblowers in NHS. I think without any experience of it directly it probably doesn’t make much sense. Plus Letby was off duty for long periods, and under investigation - it was indeed her threatened return to work that pushed the clinicians into it.

I think we have been here before though. Either way, police were contacted late and the reasons have been explored in the Thirlwell Inquiry. I have no doubt recommendations will be made to improve training and confidence in reporting such issues for future.

Can we separate whistle blowing and safeguarding- they are two different avenues with two different purposes. There is some cross over, but the defence of how people acted is on the basis of whistle blowing, the inquiry and its criticism is rightly focused on their failure to safeguard.

 

[Charlot123]

Letby had plenty of time to decide what she wanted to say about the handovers, she was asked about them multiple times in police interviews and at her trial.

What you are suggesting is just nonsensical. We can only work with the evidence we have. I find it pointless inventing scenarios which Letby herself has never offered as explanation. She changed her story continuously and her narrative based on the evidence she gave ,still doesn't make sense.

That's because she was lying.

JMO

Respectfully.

You are not working with evidence. You are using it as indirect clue that she was the killer.

You say, “We can only work with the evidence we have. I find it pointless inventing scenarios which Letby herself has never offered as explanation.”

So why did the prosecution turn it into a proof of her being a killer? People hoard paper, that’s all.

But as long as you allow hoarding papers and scrolling Facebook to be used as evidence of guilt, please allow me to offer a different explanation.

Lastly, how do people arrive at a conclusion that she was lying without being there? Just because two definitely not the best doctors who physically were in the unit only twice a week, and pushed care for level 2 babies on interns (registrars) and overwhelmed nurses couldn’t understand why very sick babies were dying?

 

[Furore]

Why do you believe they shouldn’t know about a LADO????? Apart from one person on this post saying they worked with children and had never heard of it- it’s common knowledge for anyone safeguarding children, it’s pushed in all safeguarding training and posters are displayed on work notice boards. It’s mentioned over and over again in the inquiry and I have yet to see any justification for them not being contacted, the only justification I can think of is that there concerns were reflective, rather than in the moment.

Very happy to believe you in theory but I have also just been back through my safeguarding children level 2 and have just not come across it before, I’m not sure it is that widespread knowledge IMO amongst healthcare professionals, as all hospitals have safeguarding leads who would be any individual point of contact for concerns, so the average individual would never escalate themselves. If you’ve worked in hospitals where it’s part of trust induction that’s a great thing. All JMOO

 

[Charlot123]

I actually agree with you here; I think that she's a very disturbed person and I suspect that her internal reasons for keeping them were many. I think that her appreciation of reality and social norms are significantly different to 99% of the rest of the world. There probably isn't a single reason answer to why she did a lot of the things she did.

Mainly, though, keeping those papers is related to her being a baby murderer.

LL is a complicated person and, like I said hundreds of messages ago, there will be people building entire careers out of this case for a very long time to come. That wouldn't be the case if the answers were easy.

The only reason I thought about “writing a romance” is that because I used to know a person, not a nurse, and working in the field very far from the medical one, but slightly of Lucy’s type. They decided to write a book about their job. Against all common sense. It backfired, and badly.

So I think if Lucy could have had such an idea because she resembles me that person. But if she ever came to writing a true book about her unit, with 29-weeks-old neonates dying without ever having been seen by the consultants, with nurses and interns/registrars being chronically overwhelmed, with nosocomial infections on the unit and sewage occasionally spilling out, with one of the doctors being so hyped about himself that he wore a watch in NICU, and with older married doctors hitting on young nurses, her book had zero chance of being published. JMO.

 

[May72031]

Reading through the comments, there are strong opinions. I do not have any strong opinions, I am not a so called 'Letbyist' but I am questioning the doubts that have been reported after the trial. How can anyone be certain given the doubts and the unwarrented jail sentences given to innocent people. There doesn't seem to have been any evidence that has been directly linked to LL, that is the reason I have doubts. There are people who seem certain that LL has been unjustly convicted. Has she?

Does this apply to everyone currently in prison? Wayne Couzens? Rose West? I mean, some people are falsely convicted, so I guess that means they must be innocent, too?

There were also people who believed Myra Hindley was unjustly convicted, and there were also people who though the planes that crashed into the WTC towers were "holograms".

The fact is, have any of these people brought ANY evidence to the table to challenge the evidence presented at court? So far, no they haven't. I'm really not interested in how many "doubts" some people have if they can't actually point to anything to back up their doubts.

 

[Charlot123]

There

There was more than one person who remarked about the unusual rash on baby

We know the baby didn't have this syndrome but let's pretend for a minute baby A did have this condition.

So In an unfortunate set of circumstances, there just happens to be some other highly unusual rashes, which are all actually related to other conditions which caused the collapses and deaths of the other babies as well.

The AE babies are also linked by sudden acute arrest and lack of response to normal resus methods but this is another coincidence.


And btw we don't just "leap" to an entirely different conclusion. We follow the evidence from multiple experts in their fields, who bring us to this conclusion.

JMO

How do we know he didn’t? His mom did. Hence, IVF and a difficult pregnancy and a scheduled delivery in a better hospital. The OBGYN hoped she’d carry to 32 weeks so she didn’t yet move closer to the other hospital, poor woman. Mom developed preeclampsia and ended up developing in COCH via a very difficult C-section.

This poor woman. The situation when the babies were not immediately transferred to another unit and not seen for a day by a senior consultant makes me very upset.

 

[Tortoise]

The parents of babies murdered and harmed by Lucy Letby have criticised the ‘misinformed circus’ of supporters backing the serial killer.

They accused Tory MP David Davis and Letby’s legal team of being disrespectful and ‘exacerbating the harm and hurt’ they have suffered.

Press conferences outlining alternative theories for their children’s murders were nothing more than ‘publicity stunts,’ designed to generate ‘public sympathy’ for the killer former nurse, they said.

‘The media PR campaign aimed to garner public sympathy for Letby demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for Letby’s crimes and the complexity of the case,’ the mother of Baby C, a premature boy murdered with an injection of air, said.

‘The misinformed and inaccurate media circus…is potentiating the distress of all of the families involved.’

Letby's supporters are 'exacerbating harm and hurt', angry parents say

The parents of babies murdered by Lucy Letby have accused Tory MP David Davis and Letby's legal team of 'exacerbating the harm and hurt' they have suffered.

www.dailymail.co.uk