UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #3

[PoirotPink]

Someone mentioned Batool's accent earlier. I've listened to clip of her enquiring about plane tickets and she sounds like she has a UK accent to me, specifically, a Luton accent.

The UK has lots of regional accents (and even lots of variations of the same regional accent). In Manchester, for example, you can get people who sound like Noel and Liam Gallagher and also people who sound like Sarah Lancashire or Maxine Peake. In London, you will hear cockney, something closer to RP English, and also accents with influences from other cultures and youth speak. I've heard a lot of young people saying "aks" instead of ask in some regions, which sounds like they can't speak properly, but it's actually a regional dialect (with cultural influences from long ago). I find accent, in the UK, tends to be determined by class as well as region.

 

[PoirotPink]

To be fair, Batool might have met Urfan before he and Olga separated. (My post was in response to somebody else's who was querying when they met iirc.)

Yes, sorry, I skim the thread when not logged in and sometimes can't find the correct post to respond to.

Again, the following comment is just a general observation and not a specific reply to what you've said. I can understand that people are angry and want to try to understand what made them do this, but some of the insinuations being made seem like imaginations running wild. I'm thinking specifically of speculation about child marriage (based on a photo) and some implied suggestion that Urfan may be a paedophile (if Batool had been a teenager). I don't think there's any evidentiary basis or likelihood of either of those things being true.

Also, just to highlight the difference in narrative and perception. When the origin of the make-up photo was debated, people responded that it was just a child playing "dress-up" when they thought Olga had taken it, but the reason for the photo became more nefarious when they thought it originated from Urfan/Beinash. Even in households where there's abuse, there can be times when it seems like happy families (e.g. the abuser is in a good mood or just using some form of love-bombing), so it's plausible that there were times when Sara was skipping around the garden (seemingly happy) or playing dress-up.

 

[Dotta]

Someone mentioned Batool's accent earlier. I've listened to clip of her enquiring about plane tickets and she sounds like she has a UK accent to me, specifically, a Luton accent.

The UK has lots of regional accents (and even lots of variations of the same regional accent). In Manchester, for example, you can get people who sound like Noel and Liam Gallagher and also people who sound like Sarah Lancashire or Maxine Peake. In London, you will hear cockney, something closer to RP English, and also accents with influences from other cultures and youth speak. I've heard a lot of young people saying "aks" instead of ask in some regions, which sounds like they can't speak properly, but it's actually a regional dialect (with cultural influences from long ago). I find accent, in the UK, tends to be determined by class as well as region.

Hmmm...

You might be right, as foreigners - me
are taught
Received Pronunciation, also known as "RP,"
which is a British accent known as the "Standard British" accent,
the accent most often used in formal education and the media
(such as news broadcasts - BBC for example).

I remember listening to video with Wayne Couzens speaking,
and I couldn't understand most of what was talked about
(I even thought he was drunk hehe,
although, mind you, I didn't have problems understanding Police Officers questioning him)

Oh well,
So...
She was speaking with Luton accent?

Hmmm...

 

[PoirotPink]

Re B.
Language situation seems to me very interesting and very telling.

Is that why she escaped Luton and possibly restrictive family life?
To start living more freely?
To integrate more?

Eloped to London to marry much older,
seemingly "liberated" man?

Even if it meant cutting ties with parents?

But she got stuck with a brutal and temperamental husband who used to belittle her in front of others.

Before turning 30 she got 6 kids to take care of,
including (hated?) step kids.

And not seemingly coping
as neighbour noticed she
"needed support".

Was she demanding of Sara what was demanded of her as a child?

Was her education sacrificed as it happened with Sara?

Her mental state seemingly wasn't in good condition
judging by bursts of aggression.

Frustration began with verbal abuse.
Abuse of vulnerable children
who couldn't fight back.
Was it "displaced aggression"?

Which, in time, escalated and turned lethal.

Turned into deadly violence.

Because it wasn't put in check.
Unfortunately

JMO

<modsnip: off topic>

Interesting take. I persdonally don't buy the downtrodden wife scenario when it comes to Beinash. I've never met anyone with a nice personaity who swears like she does, especially at a child.

I found the witness evidence about her being belittled to be quite a subjective and vague. Did the witness even decsribe what constituted belittlement? Or was it just about impressions. Same applies to the witness ascribing an emotion to Beinash based simply on her reading of a facial expression. Also, I've known plenty of manipulative people who are good at playing the victim when they have an audience.

 

[PoirotPink]

Hmmm...

You might be right as
foreigners - me
are taught
Received Pronunciation, also known as "RP,"
which is a British accent known as the "Standard British" accent,
the accent most often used in formal education and the media
(such as news broadcasts - BBC for example).

I remember listening to video with Wayne Couzens speaking,
and I couldn't understand most of what was talked about
(I even thought he was drunk hehe,
although, mind you, I didn't have problems understanding Police Officer's questioning him)

Oh well,
So...
She was speaking with Luton accent?

Hmmm...

Yes, this goes back to the class determination of accent. In some professional settings, people often "lose" or soften their regional accent (usually subconsciously). This is why you'll rarely hear a lawyer with a strong regional accent.

 

[porkypies]

Also, just to highlight the difference in narrative and perception. When the origin of the make-up photo was debated, people responded that it was just a child playing "dress-up" when they thought Olga had taken it, but the reason for the photo became more nefarious when they thought it originated from Urfan/Beinash. Even in households where there's abuse, there can be times when it seems like happy families (e.g. the abuser is in a good mood or just using some form of love-bombing), so it's plausible that there were times when Sara was skipping around the garden (seemingly happy) or playing dress-up.

 

[Charlot123]

Pakistani family was eager to get rid of these criminals

From last year:

"The family of Urfan Sharif, who is on the run in Pakistan with his wife and brother,
are negotiating with local politicians for the fugitives to hand themselves in to the authorities.

A police official and Sharif’s father, Muhammad Sharif,
confirmed that negotiations have been taking place for his relatives to come out of hiding and be handed over to the British authorities.

They are said to be
frightened of ill treatment
if they are dealt with by police in Pakistan.

( That's rich coming from them )

Muhammad Sharif, 68, said his son sent him a voice note earlier this week asking for advice and that he was persuading him to come forward.

'He contacted me through voice message.

I urged him to surrender as we [the family] are unable to bear this pressure now.

I asked him to defend your case in court of law and relieve us
and we cannot bear the police pressure and more arrests'.

A police official close to the case said:
'They are afraid of the police and we, with the help of influential and notable people, a few politicians,
are persuading them to surrender and that they will not be harmed and will be presented before the court of the law'.

Ten of their relatives have been taken into custody for questioning and several of these have been held in secret locations for extended periods by police in Jhelum
in order to
force the runaways to come forward.

Police are understood to have now made further threats
to go after the women in the family in order to try
to increase the pressure."

Phew!

I bet these criminals never contemplated such determination of authorities.

BBM

Sara Sharif: father’s family negotiating fugitives’ surrender with Pakistan police | UK news | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Their biggest fear was to be put through trial in Pakistan. In Pakistan, child-murderers are disliked either so they’d get much worse treatment in Pakistani prisons than in Old Bailey. What really surprised me is that Beinash complained in her statement that the police stole her jewelry. The police said that they had no interest in her jewelry and all that they hoped would be that Urfan’s family would return to London and deal with the police in the UK.
I suspected for a long time that “non-extradition treaty” is applicable to political figures but nor for regular criminals.

 

[porkypies]

I don't agree with this summary about the photo of Sarah.
I don't recall any debate about its origins, just a few differing opinions.
My own opinion was and is based on the photo itself, because to my personal way of thinking there is something unsettling about it, regardless of who took it.
I don't think you can shoehorn this situation into the heading of 'narrative and perception' because it does not fit, and I think our posters, of either opinion, are more discerning than this post suggests.

Judging by her reported injuries, I doubt that Sarah had been capable of playing Happy Families for a very long time.

 

[Dotta]

Their biggest fear was to be put through trial in Pakistan. In Pakistan, child-murderers are disliked either so they’d get much worse treatment in Pakistani prisons than in Old Bailey. What really surprised me is that Beinash complained in her statement that the police stole her jewelry. The police said that they had no interest in her jewelry and all that they hoped would be that Urfan’s family would return to London and deal with the police in the UK.
I suspected for a long time that “non-extradition treaty” is applicable to political figures but nor for regular criminals.

Wow!
I must have missed this "jewellery" bit.
I would not shed a tear even if it was true.
I'm not a crocodile.
If you get my drift.

JMO

 

[VioletLilac]

Their biggest fear was to be put through trial in Pakistan. In Pakistan, child-murderers are disliked either so they’d get much worse treatment in Pakistani prisons than in Old Bailey. What really surprised me is that Beinash complained in her statement that the police stole her jewelry. The police said that they had no interest in her jewelry and all that they hoped would be that Urfan’s family would return to London and deal with the police in the UK.
I suspected for a long time that “non-extradition treaty” is applicable to political figures but nor for regular criminals.

I think the Pakistani police were getting fed up with the pressure/spotlight on them as much as the family. I wonder if the family and police over there are following what's coming out in the trial. If so they should be as appalled by what they did to Sara as any decent person would be. That's if they believe what they're reading.

 

[Dotta]

Their biggest fear was to be put through trial in Pakistan. In Pakistan, child-murderers are disliked either so they’d get much worse treatment in Pakistani prisons than in Old Bailey. What really surprised me is that Beinash complained in her statement that the police stole her jewelry. The police said that they had no interest in her jewelry and all that they hoped would be that Urfan’s family would return to London and deal with the police in the UK.
I suspected for a long time that “non-extradition treaty” is applicable to political figures but nor for regular criminals.

Re the video which I watched last year

I remember that both defendants looked somehow estranged from each other:
sitting apart, not touching.

"Father" was silent.
So why did he appear there at all?

Step"mother" was reading from a piece of paper.
Were they her own words?
Why didn't she talk directly to the camera?

There was complete lack of emotions
despite
these individuals being "parental figures" to the child who died.

The tragedy was called "an incident".
Who would call the death of a loved person in this indifferent way?

Nothing was told about Sara,
what kind of girl she was,
how pretty,
how helpful with the siblings,
how helpful in the house.

Olga - the bio Mother, on the other hand,
spoke of her daughter with deep emotions,
(through MSM)
showing Sara's pictures, reminiscing about times she lived with her.
Showing her despair, loss and suffering.

What a contrast!

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I don't agree with this summary about the photo of Sarah.
I don't recall any debate about its origins, just a few differing opinions.
My own opinion was and is based on the photo itself, because to my personal way of thinking there is something unsettling about it, regardless of who took it.
I don't think you can shoehorn this situation into the heading of 'narrative and perception' because it does not fit, and I think our posters, of either opinion, are more discerning than this post suggests.

Judging by her reported injuries, I doubt that Sarah had been capable of playing Happy Families for a very long time.

The most unsettling part about the photo is that we constantly see it in the articles about Sara. There should be other photos in the family.
About the photo itself; it is my understanding that it was sent to Olga because in 2019 she was told by Beinash that the children refused to see her. As the proof that Sara was doing well, if I understand.

Seeing how Batool herself looks in regular photos as opposed to the more “glamorous” ones, I assume that she is good with makeup. So she probably could apply a lot of makeup on Sara and tell her to smile.

 

[Charlot123]

Sorry for a long-winded post. Thinking how it all happened. Perhaps if we have a better timeline of the birth of his kids, divorce, moving in with Batool, we can understand things better.

Urfan got custody of the kids in 2017, I assume? In 2019, the Urfans cut off the relationship with Olga. In 2020-21, with Covid and kids not going to schools, there could be more potential for abuse at home (likewise, more real stress on any parent what with the wages dropping, stores closed, less people using taxis, etc). And then they were pulling her out from school. Twice.

I would like to know when the twins were born. I suspect by that time, Batool was realizing that she bit off too big of a piece. Many women tend do fall for the stories about “bad exes” and want to “be different”, only to realize that they fell into the same trap. Six kids that we know of! This guy is like a kids’ mill but not a responsible father at all. And then, the children bring in social security income to many families, but it is far less than what a child needs. So I believe that they tried to save on the kids and that Sara showed signs of starvation. (I suspect that all kids were somehow neglected.) This is why I wonder if Urfan was still gambling when living with Beinash, i.e., bringing home less than expected?

Batool probably felt caged. It is not the reason to be sadistic, so for the death of Sarah she has to pay in full. However, I suspect that Urfan broke the lives of three women. Olga is suicidal, left UK after Sara’s death and lives in Poland. They met in 2001 when both were working in Burger King and separated in 2015, right? Many years together... I strongly hope that Beinash goes to prison forever, but give or take, she, too, was a younger woman marrying Urfan and he brought out the worst in her. I would like to know what his first wife who was left in Pakistan would have to say. My suspicion is, “abandoned”, but I would like to know.

I think Urfan deserves the harshest penalty.

And I strongly suspect he broke Islamic laws as well. Not only because smoking and gambling is haram. Looking at it from the perspective of another religion…Islam indeed allows up to four wives, but a man has to financially support them and their kids. Women make all the decisions about the household and child-rearing, but a man has to be the provider. So, if a second wife wants her own household, he has to provide it. If I understand correctly, realistically four wives are affordable only for affluent people.

Impregnating women and not providing enough money for the household is despicable in any religion. What he did, marrying one woman and abandoning her, then marrying another unsuspecting woman in another country and having two kids with her and gambling away the money, in unacceptable. He also choked the second wife and once tried to set her on fire. Then he left her. Then he married another, much younger, woman and burdened her with kids (six) and basically, made her a household slave…just look at his face when Batool is reading this statement. He is detached! (“Not his problem, evil stepmother”). He thought he calculated it all, and that he could hide in own country, but even in shariah law, there is no legality in killing a child.

By me, he is a despicable man in any culture and any religion. If he is viewed from the point of UK laws, he is a bigamist and a man who killed his child.

If he is viewed from Islamic laws, he is a man who could not provide for any of his households, because of his gambling and other habits, and killed his child. He said, “legally” punished, but there is nothing legal in murder. He was just trying to pull an Islamic card, but I hope that any Muslim would see through it and understand how harmful his statement is for their religion, to think of. He is a user. In any society, he is a criminal. In any society, he has to pay. (And guess what? His statement still stays as admission of guilt, and so does his note. Lucy Letby’s notes were used against her, so his should be the proof of his guilt. JMO).

About the brother, I think he is guilty but maybe he could turn against these two? It may be his only way out as he got a weaker lawyer.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, sorry, I skim the thread when not logged in and sometimes can't find the correct post to respond to.

Again, the following comment is just a general observation and not a specific reply to what you've said. I can understand that people are angry and want to try to understand what made them do this, but some of the insinuations being made seem like imaginations running wild. I'm thinking specifically of speculation about child marriage (based on a photo) and some implied suggestion that Urfan may be a paedophile (if Batool had been a teenager). I don't think there's any evidentiary basis or likelihood of either of those things being true.

Also, just to highlight the difference in narrative and perception. When the origin of the make-up photo was debated, people responded that it was just a child playing "dress-up" when they thought Olga had taken it, but the reason for the photo became more nefarious when they thought it originated from Urfan/Beinash. Even in households where there's abuse, there can be times when it seems like happy families (e.g. the abuser is in a good mood or just using some form of love-bombing), so it's plausible that there were times when Sara was skipping around the garden (seemingly happy) or playing dress-up.

I agree; the situation is less culture- or religion-specific and more people-specific. However, what makes is culture-specific is all Urfan’s doing. He said he “legally” punished his daughter and killed her (WTH? It is not “honor killing”, it is sadism! In Pakistan it was seen the same way). Urfan and Batool were pretty secular but they made Sara wear hijab because she “wanted to be close to her Muslim roots” (IRL, to cover the bruises) and then pulled her out of school telling that she was bullied for hijab (no way! People just noticed the bruises). Then they escaped to Pakistan. So these two, while being secular and Westernized, nodded to their roots to cover very ugly and very cross-cultural behavior, torture of a child. And now other people, who are good Muslims, and hard-working, and contributing to charity, are being viewed through the prism of these two, because of how Urfan twisted it. BTW, no normal and fair person would mind people dressing the way they see appropriate and praying the way they feel right. But the truth is, the Sharif’s neighbors didn’t mention quiet praying in namaz time. Everyone spoke about blows, slaps, kids being locked in the bedroom, and constant noise. I doubt the Sharifs were devout Muslims, tbh. It is not for me to tell the UK Muslims how to view them, but IMHO, they are a shame to any community.

 

[Dotta]

But these parents are a danger to anyone in any society because of aggression so they fully deserve to stay in prison forever.

U's note found in bed
and a recorded call from Islamabad
are proverbial "nails to his coffin".
He confessed.

 

[Charlot123]

U's note found in bed
and a recorded call from Islamabad
are proverbial "nails to his coffin".
He confessed.

Yes.
@Dotta , do you happen to know the ages of Batool’s children?

 

[Dotta]

Yes.
@Dotta , do you happen to know the ages of Batool’s children?

From last year:

"On 19 October, Surrey Country Council asked the High Court in Lahore to allow them to bring the children, aged between one and 13, back to Surrey."

There is no info about the kids which is understandable.
They need privacy.

Sara Sharif: UK and Pakistan courts tussle over siblings' future - BBC News

Legal cases are examining where the siblings of the 10 year old found dead at her home in Surrey will live.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Sooty]

@Charlot123 IIRC BB mentions the children’s ages in her telephone call to the travel agents.

Video:Beinash Batool's call to flight agent hours after Sara's killing | Daily Mail Online

Sara Sharif's stepmother makes a 'calm' call to flight agent mere hours after the killing, to book tickets. Beinash Batool, who is married to Urfan Sharif, has also been charged in the killing of the 10-year-old.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Twins 7, a 4 year old and a one year old.

 

[Charlot123]

"On 19 October, Surrey Country Council asked the High Court in Lahore to allow them to bring the children, aged between one and 13, back to Surrey."

There is no info about the kids which is understandable.
They need privacy.

Sara Sharif: UK and Pakistan courts tussle over siblings' future - BBC News

Legal cases are examining where the siblings of the 10 year old found dead at her home in Surrey will live.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Yes. I read somewhere (probably in Polish press) that Urfan and Olga met working in Burger King (either 2001 or 2004, I forgot). They married in 2009 and had a son in 2010. Sara was born in 2013. They were separated in 2015 (according to Olga’s family, she left him because of gambling and abuse). Sara was 2. I read elsewhere that the divorce was formalized in 2017. In 2019, per Wikipedia, the court moved the children to Urfan’s home but Olga had supervised visitation rights. Then Batool wrote to Olga that the children didn’t want to see her (I don’t remember when, but 2019 is stuck in my mind).
It is important to know when Olga last saw Sara in person.

Also, we don’t know if Urfan was the sole custodial parent or if Olga has some custody, re. medical issues, for example? It is probably not a secret since Sara died. And it is important.

So if in 2023, the younger child was 1, then they might have been born in 2022. How did pregnancy/childbirth affect Batool’s mood? And twins before. It can’t be viewed as exculpatory fact, Batool comes across as Elzbieta Batory, but at the same time, she was straddled with six kids, four of them her own, two twins, people seeing she “needed help”, and Urfan not caring, just gifting her with more kids.

 

[Kittypoo]

"A child sends a WhatsApp message to a school friend labelled “urgent”

This child has to be the 13yr old brother. All the other children would be too young to have a mobile phone and have a whatsapp account with their schoolfriends.

Again, he is a key witness! Why are they not bringing him back?!? Why is Pakistani govt and Urfan's family preventing this?

IMO

Do we know for sure that they haven’t bought the brother back to give evidence? Bearing in mind several days went quiet due to possibly minors in court