UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #3

[su5ie]

Yes, sorry, I skim the thread when not logged in and sometimes can't find the correct post to respond to.

Again, the following comment is just a general observation and not a specific reply to what you've said. I can understand that people are angry and want to try to understand what made them do this, but some of the insinuations being made seem like imaginations running wild. I'm thinking specifically of speculation about child marriage (based on a photo) and some implied suggestion that Urfan may be a paedophile (if Batool had been a teenager). I don't think there's any evidentiary basis or likelihood of either of those things being true.

Also, just to highlight the difference in narrative and perception. When the origin of the make-up photo was debated, people responded that it was just a child playing "dress-up" when they thought Olga had taken it, but the reason for the photo became more nefarious when they thought it originated from Urfan/Beinash. Even in households where there's abuse, there can be times when it seems like happy families (e.g. the abuser is in a good mood or just using some form of love-bombing), so it's plausible that there were times when Sara was skipping around the garden (seemingly happy) or playing dress-up.

I was the one who inferred that bienash may have been a teen when she met urfan it is a giant leap to assume I was thinking urfan was a paedophile based on my enquiry . I had wondered prehaps if she was late teens 18 /19 and was she easily coerced and manipulated by an experienced man not sexually but mentally. AFAIK bienash was 22 when she met urfan I thought she was younger .

There is a lot of focus on the photo of Sara in the green dress I agree and I can only explain my opinion on that . The photo seems out of place in comparison to other photos of Sara . The location of the photo on an unmade bed gives connotations of staging or a suggestion of a sexualization of her appearance. Thus creating cultural appropriation ideas in people's minds of a child being advertised for marriage .

Some people of all backgrounds although mostly from deprived areas dress young girls from 7/8 years of age in make up and fancy clothes abet it is usually in a party setting (this is why I think the photo seems strange as it is not) or communion (Catholic sacrament) we also see kids do this kind of thing on tiktok .make up sales to young girls has exploded because of this trend . But and it is only my opinion the photo seems OFF .in light of what happened to Sara . People are going to read into it as its a falsification of her actual life .

I highly doubt in at least the previous 2 years Sara was skipping anywhere happily . Jumping through hoops to please more like but it never being good enough .

You mention perception and narrative. People feel olga is a victim in all this too and I feel she is ,so peoples perception will definitely be different when being presented with an idea the photo was taken by olga .

The narrative around the case is created because the behaviour of urfan ,bienash and the uncle is nefarious there is no getting away from that when presented with the evidence . I personally am not interested in changing my perception of them and my personal narrative is they are beyond redemption and are evil and cruel in ways I find hard to comprehend.

They should recieve the harshest sentences available in the uk and tbh if the death penalty was available i wouldnt blink an eye electrocuting them This wasn't a quick killing this was a slow demeaning ,degrading tortured murder of an innocent child

 

[Charlot123]

@Charlot123 IIRC BB mentions the children’s ages in her telephone call to the travel agents.

Video:Beinash Batool's call to flight agent hours after Sara's killing | Daily Mail Online

Sara Sharif's stepmother makes a 'calm' call to flight agent mere hours after the killing, to book tickets. Beinash Batool, who is married to Urfan Sharif, has also been charged in the killing of the 10-year-old.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Twins 7, a 4 year old and a one year old.

So twins born in 2016 probably, a 4-year-old in 2019 when Sara and her brother were moved into Urfan’s house, and a baby in 2022.
One can understand how overwhelmed the mom might feel. This is not to exculpate her (she very well understands what she is doing and is calm and collected on the phone).
I wonder how sadistic the three of them were in the days before Sara died?

 

[Dotta]

I wonder how sadistic the three of them were in the days before Sara died?

In the link I posted upthread
a neighbour said that
5 days before Police came to the house
she didn't see the family outside,
which, according to the witness
was "strange".

Well,
It might mean Sara was comatose and in agony then.

Let's not forget brain trauma, bleeding in brain.
This brain injury might have been ultimate,
resulting in death.

As an Expert also said.

Although,
another witness testified that
she heard unusual scream 2 days before the death.

But what kept family at home for 5 days?

JMO

The link (I found it again)
And quote:

"In the five days before police attended I did not see the family at all which is unusual.”

Scream ‘in pain’ alarmed neighbour two days before Sara Sharif, 10, died, court hears

Father Urfan Sharif, stepmother Beinash Batool and uncle Faisal Malik are accused of carrying out a campaign of abuse against the 10-year-old

www.standard.co.uk

 

[su5ie]

Do we know for sure that they haven’t bought the brother back to give evidence? Bearing in mind several days went quiet due to possibly minors in court

Children are usually afforded a great deal of protection in regard to court cases . I have always assumed if a child can be saved from the formalities and pressure of the witness box alternatives are available such as statements read out on their behalf that have been taken in a less intimidating environment or via video link . I would say if Saras brother had to be present possibly with the defendants in the Dock this would be known to the Prosecution and defence to cause too much stress to the boy and the child would not give a true testimony imo I could be wrong

 

[su5ie]

In the link I posted upthread
a neighbour said that
5 days before Police came to the house
she didn't see the family outside,
which, according to the witness
was "strange".

Well,
It might mean Sara was comatose and in agony then.

Let's not forget brain trauma, bleeding in brain.
This brain injury might have been ultimate,
resulting in death.

As an Expert also said.

Although,
another witness testified that
she heard unusual scream 2 days before the death.

But what kept family at home for 5 days?

JMO

The link (I found it again)
And quote:

"In the five days before police attended I did not see the family at all which is unusual.”

Scream ‘in pain’ alarmed neighbour two days before Sara Sharif, 10, died, court hears

Father Urfan Sharif, stepmother Beinash Batool and uncle Faisal Malik are accused of carrying out a campaign of abuse against the 10-year-old

www.standard.co.uk

Unfortunately I think Sara was in the process of dying and it was clear it would be in a matter of days. During the 5 days there was probably intial selfish panic ' how do we save our own skin " and the idea came to the three to go to Pakistan moo

 

[VioletLilac]

I think the heavy make up was to cover bruises before sending the photo to Olga.
I agree that it's possible Sara's brother is testifying by video link.

 

[Charlot123]

Children are usually afforded a great deal of protection in regard to court cases . I have always assumed if a child can be saved from the formalities and pressure of the witness box alternatives are available such as statements read out on their behalf that have been taken in a less intimidating environment or via video link . I would say if Saras brother had to be present possibly with the defendants in the Dock this would be known to the Prosecution and defence to cause too much stress to the boy and the child would not give a true testimony imo I could be wrong

He absolutely should not be subjected to the stress of cross-examination, IMHO, because the lawyers would put pressure on him. Any statement of him has to be read in court. But where is the boy? I understand that the Sharifs lost the custody of him. So he should probably be the ward of the UK, not Pakistan. In therapy, and probably, considering future parental reconciliation with the mother?

 

[Dotta]

But where is the boy? I understand that the Sharifs lost the custody of him. So he should probably be the ward of the UK, not Pakistan. In therapy, and probably, considering future parental reconciliation with the mother?

All children are with grandfather in Pakistan.

December 2023:

"After speaking to all parties in his chamber,
the judge gave interim custody to the grandfather of the children.
The case has been heard several times in Pakistan since October and for now the children remain with Muhammad Sharif.

The case to decide their permanent custody is still pending."

Sara Sharif: UK and Pakistan courts tussle over siblings' future - BBC News

Legal cases are examining where the siblings of the 10 year old found dead at her home in Surrey will live.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Kittypoo]

I agree; the situation is less culture- or religion-specific and more people-specific. However, what makes is culture-specific is all Urfan’s doing. He said he “legally” punished his daughter and killed her (WTH? It is not “honor killing”, it is sadism! In Pakistan it was seen the same way). Urfan and Batool were pretty secular but they made Sara wear hijab because she “wanted to be close to her Muslim roots” (IRL, to cover the bruises) and then pulled her out of school telling that she was bullied for hijab (no way! People just noticed the bruises). Then they escaped to Pakistan. So these two, while being secular and Westernized, nodded to their roots to cover very ugly and very cross-cultural behavior, torture of a child. And now other people, who are good Muslims, and hard-working, and contributing to charity, are being viewed through the prism of these two, because of how Urfan twisted it. BTW, no normal and fair person would mind people dressing the way they see appropriate and praying the way they feel right. But the truth is, the Sharif’s neighbors didn’t mention quiet praying in namaz time. Everyone spoke about blows, slaps, kids being locked in the bedroom, and constant noise. I doubt the Sharifs were devout Muslims, tbh. It is not for me to tell the UK Muslims how to view them, but IMHO, they are a shame to any community.

Yes definitely Westernised so no sign of Batool wearing a hijab an adult woman and a mother. Yet Sara 10 years old was conveniently required to cover herself. Hypocrisy at its finest JMO

 

[su5ie]

Murder of Shafilea Ahmed - Wikipedia

I seen this case when looking up Sara's on Wikipedia very sad and I know this poor girl was older she was 17 but Shafilea didn't conform to her families ideal and was murdered for refusing an arranged marriage at 15

 

[su5ie]

I was just lying awake thinking about Sara and the fear she would have felt . And I was thinking there had to be times she was beaten even when she was already injured maybe even incapacitated from broken bones .
I was trying to figure out what angered them so much to continue breaking her little body even though I'm sure her spirit had well been broken a long time before her death and she would not have dared not comply with orders .
I wonder even if she cried in pain was she beaten more to stiffle her tears and moans of pain . I remember an abusive ex of mine would go into a fit of rage if I disturbed his sleep I'm wondering did urfan do the same if Sara woke him with her crying .

Sadly because the 3 defendants have pleaded not guilty I don't think the truth will ever be known unless one of two things happen .
The uncle looks like a deer caught in the headlights and I'm wondering will he break if faced with a long sentence and sort of enter into a plea bargin to get a reduced sentence or secondly if the oldest child reveals all in his testimony, the only way I think that can happen is if he knows he will go back to olga and her family or into Foster care in UK. When he text his friend that Sarah had died I wonder did he confide anything else in his friend over the 2 years that can be used in court

 

[Charlot123]

Murder of Shafilea Ahmed - Wikipedia

I seen this case when looking up Sara's on Wikipedia very sad and I know this poor girl was older she was 17 but Shafilea didn't conform to her families ideal and was murdered for refusing an arranged marriage at 15

Yes, very sad. Shafilea could have had a bright future, poor girl.

But again… “The services were seen as having been slow to help Shafilea.”

It is sad that there is no good place harboring young people with the future who want to escape the traditions.

 

[Luna*]

Don’t know if anyone else noticed that during the 999 call the operator asked who’s car he was in, Urfan replied my son’s, it’s my son’s car.

If Urfan has a much older son in Pakistan that could be another reason for Sara’s siblings to stay there.

 

[PKFS]

Yes.

But why does she speak sooo heavily accented English though?
One would think that living in England and attending English schools a person should sound like a native, no?

Was she home schooled?

Is she only the first generation born in the UK and parents don't speak English well?

This is very interesting,
as even my pupils in Primary School speak English nearly without an accent.
Well, "nearly" is a key word hehe
But still!
(They start learning 2 foreign languages in Primary School,
usually English and German)

But to obtain such good pronunciation,
one must start learning/speaking a foreign language early,
when throat muscles are still flexible.

It seems to me it didn't happen in her case.
But education starts early in the UK, no?
From the age of 5 as far as I know.

Sorry,
but it is really baffling to me

JMO

Batool has a heavy Luton accent which is also a mixed with MLE (multi-cultural english). MLE is a working-class accent that's a mix of Jamaican, traditional London "cockney", and other accents such as her cultural one of Pakistani.

 

[PKFS]

Don’t know if anyone else noticed that during the 999 call the operator asked who’s car he was in, Urfan replied my son’s, it’s my son’s car.

If Urfan has a much older son in Pakistan that could be another reason for Sara’s siblings to stay there.

Nothing has been mentioned about Batool's background, her family etc, nor about Sharif's background. Probably because of relevance to the case.
Sharif must be having children from his 1st wife in Pakistan. They would probably be late teen/20s.

 

[Nikynoo]

Less comparing, rather interested if there is a system like the CPS in the UK. I definitely agree that CPS is not above criticism, and usually the problems can be explained by the same reasons everywhere. Where I see its benefit: it is connected neither to school nor to the police, although police may get involved if a crime has been committed. A neighbor or a concerned person who is not a mandatory reporter can call CPS anonymously. (So if a neighbor is hearing loud noises and kids crying, they can call the CPS or child abuse hotline without mentioning their name).

What bothers me in the situation with Sara is that somehow in the process the information did get lost, or the way it traveled was too long. An example: a teacher asked about the bruises (meaning the best I am sure), and it totally backfired. The family moved, Sara was pulled out of school. The report was made in April, and in August, the child died. If the report was entered into the system, what happened with it? Who traces it?

So as usual, can anything be done better and less bureaucratized?

You asked about CPS equivalent in the UK. We have child protection services here and they are wholly inadequate imo. Another recent case with cps involvement resulting in the death of a child. Rowley Regis mother given hospital order for stabbing daughter to death - BBC News

 

[PKFS]

Curious that Batool and Sharif kept their kids in , St Mary’s primary in West Byfleet and didnt move all of them closer to Woking when they moved from West Byfleet... it is over 5 miles away plus it is a Catholic school. So the kids didn't have many local friends? Also the 13yr old brother was at another school as would be in secondary school?

 

[Charlot123]

I was just lying awake thinking about Sara and the fear she would have felt . And I was thinking there had to be times she was beaten even when she was already injured maybe even incapacitated from broken bones .
I was trying to figure out what angered them so much to continue breaking her little body even though I'm sure her spirit had well been broken a long time before her death and she would not have dared not comply with orders .
I wonder even if she cried in pain was she beaten more to stiffle her tears and moans of pain . I remember an abusive ex of mine would go into a fit of rage if I disturbed his sleep I'm wondering did urfan do the same if Sara woke him with her crying .

Sadly because the 3 defendants have pleaded not guilty I don't think the truth will ever be known unless one of two things happen .
The uncle looks like a deer caught in the headlights and I'm wondering will he break if faced with a long sentence and sort of enter into a plea bargin to get a reduced sentence or secondly if the oldest child reveals all in his testimony, the only way I think that can happen is if he knows he will go back to olga and her family or into Foster care in UK. When he text his friend that Sarah had died I wonder did he confide anything else in his friend over the 2 years that can be used in court

About the uncle. One would hope he might enter a plea bargain, but some protection might be considered. His status in the UK is unclear, and he might be fearful of repercussions from the relatives in Pakistan. In general, one hopes.

One would hope that there might be other witnesses.

 

[Dotta]

About the uncle. One would hope he might enter a plea bargain, but some protection might be considered. His status in the UK is unclear, and he might be fearful of repercussions from the relatives in Pakistan. In general, one hopes.

One would hope that there might be other witnesses.

I'm not sure the uncle will turn against his relative.
Is U his brother? A cousin?

It might be family solidarity issue,
after all U provided him with a roof over head during his stay abroad.

Re other witnesses

But there are witnesses.
Sara's injuries.
The whole catalogue of them presented by Experts in Court.
They tell the whole sad story.

All of the adults are responsible for this situation.
All of them fled and left a dead child alone.
None of them called an ambulance.
None of them took her to the doctor.
Not even once.
Her injuries were not treated according to Experts.

Wasn't the same situation in Logan M's case?
And Arthur LH's?

All defendants were found guilty in above mentioned cases and got long prison sentences.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

.

I'm not sure the uncle will turn against his relative.
Is U his brother? A cousin?

It might be family solidarity issue,
after all U provided him with a roof over head during his stay abroad.

Re other witnesses

But there are witnesses.
Sara's injuries.
The whole catalogue of them presented by Experts in Court.
They tell the whole sad story.

All of the adults are responsible for this situation.
All of them fled and left a dead child alone.
None of them called an ambulance.
None of them took her to the doctor.
Not even once.
Her injuries were not treated according to Experts.

Wasn't the same situation in Logan M's case?
And Arthur LH's?

All defendants were found guilty in above mentioned cases and got long prison sentences.

JMO

Dad's own admission of guilt and the note in his handwriting. Lucy Letby's notes looked like a psychotherapy exercise to me, and yet, they played a significant role in her case. LL's case was very complicated, what with the whole mess in the COCH, tbh. This case, a child's body, a father's call and the note. What else?