Was the carpet removed from Lisa's room?

[beach]

Drop the front/rear facing carseat debate on this thread. Completely off topic.

I have strong feelings about it too, but I know it has NOTHING to do with WHY Lisa is missing. I also know others have strong feelings that oppose my own. Therefore, it serves no purpose to debate it here.

Talk about the carpet. Please and thank you.


Was the carpet removed from Lisa's room?

 

[norest4thewicked]

<modsnip>

Back to topic now though....

If carpet was not cut out by the bed, why did they move the furniture there? Any ideas? Why is the picture of the baby's room, from Cindy Short's video, in black and white? IMO, there's something there.

<modsnip>

Back on topic. I agree with you that it does seem strange. But, often simple things seem really complicated. My guess would be that they moved everything out of the room for the luminol testing and then when they put it back in, they just put it wherever. Nothing nefarious here, but that's my take on it.

I have no clue why CS has a black and white video. It could be something as simple as the person operating the video camera was not familiar with it and it somehow was on the black and white setting accidentally. You can change color into black and white, but not black and white into color.

I generally lean toward the simplest scenarios...so that's just my thoughts on this.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

Per the B&W portion of the video, it seems to be the new "in thing" with some journalists too, especially when showing clips of the past (although that's not really the case here) but I think it was done as a wow factor by the camera operator more than anything. Just like a few years ago movies were shown in B&W with only colour being the reds. Was cool when it first came out in a movie about WWII if I remember correctly but soon became an over used technique. I'm guessing that's all this was for as well.

 

[hambirg]

By Federal law they can only be delayed for up to 10 days (link provided upstream). Even if the warrants were sealed, the filings would be public and they would be able to see the address and/or name of where it was served. I am pretty sure we have local reporters that would have sought out this info.

BBM1

What can only be delayed for 10 days?

From Rule41.

(A) Warrant to Search for and Seize a Person or Property. Except for a tracking-device warrant, the warrant must identify the person or property to be searched, identify any person or property to be seized, and designate the magistrate judge to whom it must be returned. The warrant must command the officer to:

(i) execute the warrant within a specified time no longer than 14 days;. . . .

(3) Delayed Notice. Upon the government's request, a magistrate judge&#8212;or if authorized by Rule 41(b), a judge of a state court of record&#8212;may delay any notice required by this rule if the delay is authorized by statute.]
http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_41


Link to a 2008 reporting of delayed-notice warrants and extensions:

The periods of delay specified ranged from 3 days to 365 days. The most frequently reported period of delay was 90 days. . .Extensions to the period of delay numbered from 1 to 21, with 1 being the most frequently reported number of extensions.
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/SneakAndPeakReport.pdf


BBM2

Not always the case:

In other cases the index may just be numerically arranged by a number the court assigns for each warrant.

Search warrants are not indexed according to the names of the people whose property is being searched or seized, which can make it difficult for a reporter to track down the files.

Thus you&#8217;ll often need to ask a law enforcement officer or a prosecutor for the search warrant file number, or for the date a search was approved by a judge and a description of what was searched, in order to dig the search warrant records out of the court clerk's files.
http://multimedia.journalism.berkeley.edu/tutorials/police-records/search-warrants/


ETA- Now did the FBI do all that, idk. But they CAN. I would not be surprised if they had an early warrant for electronic surveillance of those phones. They can amend that warrant before it is executed or they can simply file for an additional one.

Back to the carpet. . .there are many things that LE can gather that don't have to be listed as inventory. . . fingerprints, blood, photographs (taken by LE), swabs, and fibers. So just because the entire carpet wasn't listed in the inventory does not suggest that there was no evidence related to it.

MOO

 

[In da Middle]

Even IF a delay was granted, it would be a public filing of such action (see link below) and it is past the date for doing this. But yes, there are some things they can do with listing it on the inventory. The above (swabs, etc) do not involve taking items from the property. The carpet itself would have to be listed.
And even if some filings are "difficult" to find, a good reporter will take that challenge and a LOT of them have friends in the court clerks offices to help them out.
From the Cornell link quoted above
View attachment 21070

 

[DeAnn]

Even IF a delay was granted, it would be a public filing of such action (see link below) and it is past the date for doing this. But yes, there are some things they can do with listing it on the inventory. The above (swabs, etc) do not involve taking items from the property. The carpet itself would have to be listed.
And even if some filings are "difficult" to find, a good reporter will take that challenge and a LOT of them have friends in the court clerks offices to help them out.
From the Cornell link quoted above
View attachment 21070

Several Kansas City news organizations literally were making daily if not twice daily trips to the Clay County courthouse in Liberty to physically look for any search warrant applications or search warrant returns in the Lisa Irwin case. This went on for weeks.

You can look through casenet yourself for search warrants. It's not easy and it's best to know a property description. I did it daily for weeks when my friend was murdered. But if have the motivation you can do it from your home.

But ultimately it's best to go physically to the courthouse and as In Da Middle said have sources.

Plus there were news organizations in town such as Inside Edition and People who were willing quite openly to pay for information. I'd eat my purse if there were a hidden state warrant. I won't say no to FBI because I don't know enough about that system but I have a hard time believing that wouldn't have leaked to a local or national reporter or blogger.

A lot of things have been leaked that haven't been made public and it wasn't always by the defense team. Some things can be checked out. (for example, DB on surveillance video.) Some can't. And some things can't be said publicly because law enforcement fears it will compromise their investigation.

 

[hambirg]

Even IF a delay was granted, it would be a public filing of such action (see link below) and it is past the date for doing this. But yes, there are some things they can do with listing it on the inventory. The above (swabs, etc) do not involve taking items from the property. The carpet itself would have to be listed.
And even if some filings are "difficult" to find, a good reporter will take that challenge and a LOT of them have friends in the court clerks offices to help them out.
From the Cornell link quoted above
View attachment 21070

Again. . .if it was sealed a federal warrant may not say anything other than. . 9--sealed.

How would the media know if they weren't given the file number or what day it was granted, and what would they have to report if the warrant is sealed?

"Breaking news! The feds filed sealed warrant #9-!"

We don't know what happened, but we do know the FBI was present and actively participating in the search that day per their spokesperson. We also know that there were lots of items tagged and bagged leaving that house. There are only 7 items listed on the non-sealed KCPD warrant inventory. What do you suggest is the case with all those other items? KCPD and the FBI seized them illegally? They just forgot to list them in the inventory? They tagged and bagged all that stuff only to turn around and put it back?

I don't believe any of those. JMHO.

MOO and all that.

 

[hambirg]

Several Kansas City news organizations literally were making daily if not twice daily trips to the Clay County courthouse in Liberty to physically look for any search warrant applications or search warrant returns in the Lisa Irwin case. This went on for weeks.

You can look through casenet yourself for search warrants. It's not easy and it's best to know a property description. I did it daily for weeks when my friend was murdered. But if have the motivation you can do it from your home.

But ultimately it's best to go physically to the courthouse and as In Da Middle said have sources.

Plus there were news organizations in town such as Inside Edition and People who were willing quite openly to pay for information. I'd eat my purse if there were a hidden state warrant. I won't say no to FBI because I don't know enough about that system but I have a hard time believing that wouldn't have leaked to a local or national reporter or blogger.

A lot of things have been leaked that haven't been made public and it wasn't always by the defense team. Some things can be checked out. (for example, DB on surveillance video.) Some can't. And some things can't be said publicly because law enforcement fears it will compromise their investigation.

District court is in Wyandotte county. A federal warrant would be filed there.

How would you account for all of those things that left the house that day?

ETA- the point is, the argument is that only those things listed on that specific warrant were the things seized. That simply can't be stated as fact. My "friend" said it is not uncommon at all to have multiple warrants executed on the same day. . .even by the same agency. Just as a hypothetical. If LE had an informant say they saw a deceased BL laying on the floor in her room, LE could seek a warrant specifically for her room or the carpet and ask to have it sealed to protect the informant's identity. The judge has the authority to grant that. Then LE discovers something else, let's say the dog hit in the bedroom, so they seek another warrant on the rest of the house and grounds, cars etc. The judge grants the warrant, but doesn't find cause to seal it. Hypothetical I know, but not impossible and from the sounds of it, not that unheard of.

 

[vlpate]

Several Kansas City news organizations literally were making daily if not twice daily trips to the Clay County courthouse in Liberty to physically look for any search warrant applications or search warrant returns in the Lisa Irwin case. This went on for weeks.

You can look through casenet yourself for search warrants. It's not easy and it's best to know a property description. I did it daily for weeks when my friend was murdered. But if have the motivation you can do it from your home.

But ultimately it's best to go physically to the courthouse and as In Da Middle said have sources.

Plus there were news organizations in town such as Inside Edition and People who were willing quite openly to pay for information. I'd eat my purse if there were a hidden state warrant. I won't say no to FBI because I don't know enough about that system but I have a hard time believing that wouldn't have leaked to a local or national reporter or blogger.

A lot of things have been leaked that haven't been made public and it wasn't always by the defense team. Some things can be checked out. (for example, DB on surveillance video.) Some can't. And some things can't be said publicly because law enforcement fears it will compromise their investigation.

Entire Search Warrant files can be sealed, including the application and affidavit. Partial SW files can be sealed as well if there's an ongoing investigation or if revealing those pages would reveal sources, etc. They were taking things out of the house before the SW, I don't know where one would find a list for those things.

Would you happen to know who went into the house first to do their tour during the weekend of 10/22-10/23, Peter Alexander or Cindy Short?

 

[DeAnn]

District court is in Wyandotte county. A federal warrant would be filed there.

How would you account for all of those things that left the house that day?

I'm sorry but what?! Wyandotte County is in Kansas. Specifically, Kansas City, Kan. Why would a case in which a girl goes missing from her Kansas City MO, home be filed in Kansas????

I can't imagine under any circumstances a search for a residence in Missouri would be filed in Kansas.

Which day? That's very important in this case.

 

[hambirg]

I'm sorry but what?! Wyandotte County is in Kansas. Specifically, Kansas City, Kan. Why would a case in which a girl goes missing from her Kansas City MO, home be filed in Kansas????

I can't imagine under any circumstances a search for a residence in Missouri would be filed in Kansas.

Which day? That's very important in this case.

:doh:

You're right. It's in Jackson County. I'm not local and Googled. I'm not sure why it gave me the Wyandotte County address. The federal district court is in Jackson County. Sorry.

We don't know which day. . .that's kind of the point. I suspect there could have been a federal warrant very early on because of the phones. Any thing having to do with those phones would fall under federal jurisdiction. I suspect that LE believes a crime was committed involving those phones.

 

[DeAnn]

Entire Search Warrant files can be sealed, including the application and affidavit.

I know and have dealt with returns being sealed. I have never ever heard of an application being sealed in Missouri. Because it's frustrating to know there's a search warrant there but you can't get your hands on it.

Do you have any specific details to share to back up that search warrant applications can be sealed in Missouri? I know returns can be sealed. That's not my question.

 

[DeAnn]

:doh:

You're right. It's in Jackson County. I'm not local and Googled. I'm not sure why it gave me the Wyandotte County address. The federal district court is in Jackson County. Sorry.

We don't know which day. . .that's kind of the point. I suspect there could have been a federal warrant very early on because of the phones. Any thing having to do with those phones would fall under federal jurisdiction. I suspect that they believe a crime was committed involving those phones.

A federal warrant for phones is completely different than a search warrant for physical property or in this specific case a residence. And I thought the supposition on this thread was there was a secret federal search warrant for the residence as opposed to any ole federal search warrant for the phones or whatever.

 

[hambirg]

A federal warrant for phones is completely different than a search warrant for physical property or in this specific case a residence. And I thought the supposition on this thread was there was a secret federal search warrant for the residence as opposed to any ole federal search warrant for the phones or whatever.

There's no hard and fast rule of law that says the physical property can't be included on the SW with the phones. A crime involving the phones could include a search on the property. As long as it follows the federal laws to search and seizure, the judge is free to grant it as he sees fit.

ETA-We know vice was there that day. Why?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

:doh:

You're right. It's in Jackson County. I'm not local and Googled. I'm not sure why it gave me the Wyandotte County address. The federal district court is in Jackson County. Sorry.

We don't know which day. . .that's kind of the point. I suspect there could have been a federal warrant very early on because of the phones. Any thing having to do with those phones would fall under federal jurisdiction. I suspect that LE believes a crime was committed involving those phones.

BBM.
Does this mean that only Federal LE agency's can get search warrants in regards to phones? I would hope that local LE could get the same information or wire taps as the Feds.

 

[highflyer]

There's no hard and fast rule of law that says the physical property can't be included on the SW with the phones. A crime involving the phones could include a search on the property. As long as it follows the federal laws to search and seizure, the judge is free to grant it as he sees fit.

ETA-We know vice was there that day. Why?

Good question. I've wondered that too.

 

[DeAnn]

There's no hard and fast rule of law that says the physical property can't be included on the SW with the phones. A crime involving the phones could include a search on the property. As long as it follows the federal laws to search and seizure, the judge is free to grant it as he sees fit.

ETA-We know vice was there that day. Why?

Because there was a baby missing and literally hundreds of officers were involved in the search for her?

I don't know. Why were homicide detectives there? Why were assault squad detectives there? I could go on and on. There were a lot of officers there those first days. They weren't undercover officers that much is for sure.

I do know that there was grousing about all the resources being put into finding a missing white baby when some African-American leaders complained about why similar resources weren't put to solve black on black crime in the inner city. That was a simmering issue that first week when an unprecedented amount of officers, FBI agents and KCFD folks were swarming the Northland for a single missing baby. Upwards of 500 officers were involved. Let me repeat. 500. There were jokes that if you wanted to commit a crime south of the river that that was the time to do it because no one was around to investigate.

Someone can start a thread on why was vice there that day and the speculation can begin. But the lead detectives remain crimes against children.

But here's my question...if the feds executed a search warrant on the home, why are Picerno and Tacopina going out of their way repeatedly to praise the FBI's handling of this case???

 

[Deleted member 39678]

[/B]
Good question. I've wondered that too.

Are you talking about the one LE officer who was seen wearing a "vice" T-shirt? I just thought that she was there to help search and that was her only Police shirt. If an officer had a "Bomb Squad" T-shirt on during a search, would it mean they were looking for a bomb?

 

[askfornina]

There's no hard and fast rule of law that says the physical property can't be included on the SW with the phones. A crime involving the phones could include a search on the property. As long as it follows the federal laws to search and seizure, the judge is free to grant it as he sees fit.

ETA-We know vice was there that day. Why?

BBM. Here is a quote re: VICE. http://www.kmbc.com/r-video/29386705/detail.html

At about :27 into this video from Oct 4th, SY says "Right now we're getting help from FBI, the ATF, the Marshal's office, ICE, Clay County. Uh, we have all of our narcotics and VICE division out here...<snipped>...So we are just expanding and doing everything we can."

 

[DeAnn]

BBM. Here is a quote re: VICE. http://www.kmbc.com/r-video/29386705/detail.html

At about :27 into this video from Oct 4th, SY says "Right now we're getting help from FBI, the ATF, the Marshal's office, ICE, Clay County. Uh, we have all of our narcotics and VICE division out here...<snipped>...So we are just expanding and doing everything we can."

Thank you. I had forgotten about the Clay County Sheriff's Office involvement.

500 officers. Not just vice. Homicide, you name it. They threw everything out that they could to find Lisa who has just disappeared into the night.