2011.03.24 Frye Hearing - Afternoon portion

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OK. I am no lawyer, but to borrow a phrase, I cannot stipulate to sexual abuse absent evidence proving same. I do think there is ample evidence of CA emotionally abusing KC ("forcing" her to bear Caylee tops this list).

So OK. We have a KC who has been emotionally abused to the point where she can no longer distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate demonstrations of her true emotional state. Danziger will likely support this construct. And then the defense will say that Caylee's death was an accident? And KC covered up emotionally by mimicking emotions she never really felt?

But what about the three strips of duct tape? How do they fit in--and ok, one strip maybe if you are emotionally abused and trying to mask a negligent death as a kidnapping, but three strips? And what about the extremely high levels of chloroform in that trunk?

Argh. For all of us, argh. Especially for Caylee. I think I do see where the defense might be headed and I do.not.like.it.one.bit.
 
I know we have a thread about it...but something just keeps bringing me back to that parlor.

ITA...the tattoo parlor referred to ICA as a regular. She's not covered in ink, so she must either shoot the breeze (where was Caylee?) while someone else does???? Anyhow..........maybe these guys/gals at the parlor participated in some of the chloroform "games" that were popular amongst ICA's "new friends"....................??? Or maybe they use common elements that make-up chloroform??? That parlor has always stuck out but I don't know why either..........:banghead:
 
I just loved Dr. Vass's analogy when describing how one would recognize an odour..Decomp. is unique and once smelled you will always recognize it..just like once you smell a skunk spray..you dont need to be a rocket scientist to recognize it...So So true...Odours are enblazened into your brain once experienced..and that memory is triggered immediately when you smell it again..I can attest to that sadly:sick:
 
Yes, that's why everyone was so shocked when they mentioned the new expert on Casey's "state of mind" today in court.





In my version of the "ugly coping" theory, Casey had been mentally ill for a lengthy period of time due to sexual and emotional abuse by her family, and was, because of that, able to dissociate herself from reality and seem "happy" when really horrible things happened to her (like her daughter dying in a terrible accident). So her behavior before and after wouldn't have been any different, really.
Much better than what Baez will come up with, but I still don't buy it for a hot minute. Because from my POV, it's the other way about.

KC has, according to records, lied to and abused her mother's trust via theft, and lying to CA about working so KC could go party without having to mind Caylee.

If anything, KC and CA are much the same and responded to each other in kind. But I still don't believe KC was abused.
All my own opinions.
 
That is exactly one of the things I see wrong with JB's questioning. He needs to direct attention to other explanations for those high levels. He shouldn't be giving the idea that if it wasn't from ICA drugging Caylee it was from her dead body. He may not have meant to do that but that was my impression. JA is going for both and considering how massively high those levels were I think most will understand and agree.

Yeah? And his highlighting of THC found in the grave wax on the paper towels really does nothing to get the whole "Caylee was subjected to drugs" thing out of the juries mind. The whole "hey we found marijuana chemicals in what is in all likelihood the decaying remains of your 2 year old daughters fatty tissue" is not something that the jury is going to miss or forgive.
 
Thank you for this Beach! I appreciate the Summary thread as well. I find the actual hearing thread is just a gong show and Fuster Cluck. There are WAY too many people in there, many many of the posts are repeat posts as EVERYONE is trying to keep updates coming at the same time, everyone tripping over them selves and such and it is extremely difficult to make sense of all the posts. Additionally, it's rather difficult to either KEEP up with those day of threads or go Through them to catch up. I was wondering if we will have a better more organized posting method for the actual trial?

Is there anyway we can restrict EXCESSIVE posting to keep the threads more fluid and easier to follow. I ADORE the One liners and Quips but I suspect we will have a VERY mess WS come may.

Back to reading and TRYING to catch up

I understand what you are saying, and I even agree with it.

However, having sat through some, but not all, of these hearings, I have nothing but respect for every single person who dedicates themselves to sitting through these hearings in real-time to provide a service for those of us who can't.

I can say after the last two days of doing my utmost best to not only attach myself to my computer all day, only leaving when there are recesses called, but also try to post on what is going on, I was a dismal failure. This is hard work, and I don't think it can be done without the occasional off-topic remarks and of course everyone is going to want to comment when something interesting happens. I suggest someone try this themselves for a day or two before they are so quick to critique what others are doing, not only for themselves, but for the benefit of those who want to know what is going on but are unable to take the day off and sit through it themselves.
 
I totally agree. I have been a lurker and not able to get the live feeds and wanted "just the facts jack". I also have been posting for 2 days and I have been guilty of the 1 liners, myself. Sitting there hanging on each and every word as it happens in real time makes for a stressful day and for myself, the one liners are just a stress relief and my way of coping. It is also another way for me to not say something that would get me banned. I appreciate everyone's take on things and I do attempt to keep notes from what I hear them say. I cannot be 100% accurate while this is going on and rely on someone else posting in the highlight threads the "just the facts jack sort of stuff". Hopefully that makes sense - just wanted to validate that both threads are needed (IMO).

I'm glad you made the summary about needing both threads because from someone who sets aside work and life for the duration of the hearings because of how much I care about this case - and I actually sit through the hearings and hang onto each word as carefully as I can - I just don't see the point of a summary thread.
What I would like to see is a summary thread where each section of the hearings is posted and organized, so those who do not care to wend their way through the comment thread can sit and listen for themselves, when they choose to take the time at their leisure. For me the summary thread, while I deeply appreciate the effort and dedication of a few posters who actually post in it make- is a waste of time. IMO of course.
 
I just don't get how chloroform levels could be that high after the car sat in a tow lot for weeks. The chloroform had to have been introduced into the trunk right before the state took possesion of it, IMO. So that goes back to Cindy and her cleaning.
 
Yes, that's why everyone was so shocked when they mentioned the new expert on Casey's "state of mind" today in court.





In my version of the "ugly coping" theory, Casey had been mentally ill for a lengthy period of time due to sexual and emotional abuse by her family, and was, because of that, able to dissociate herself from reality and seem "happy" when really horrible things happened to her (like her daughter dying in a terrible accident). So her behavior before and after wouldn't have been any different, really.

Thanks! Not sure how I missed that "bombshell" at today's hearing. They are just coming up with this now-right before trial, sheesh!
 
1st BBM ~ Did everyone catch when HJP told JB to keep his voice down and then added something about not having anyone who is deaf in court today?
I thought, 'oh, isn't CM there?'. I'm not saying it's funny that anybody is deaf, but it's funny in this context imo.

JB was getting louder by the minute. It was starting to give me a headache. I kept turning my speakers down then I couldn't hear the witness. He screamed so loud at one point I think it affected his voice. I really hope he is not allowed to do that during a trial.
 
OK. I am no lawyer, but to borrow a phrase, I cannot stipulate to sexual abuse absent evidence proving same. I do think there is ample evidence of CA emotionally abusing KC ("forcing" her to bear Caylee tops this list).

So OK. We have a KC who has been emotionally abused to the point where she can no longer distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate demonstrations of her true emotional state. Danziger will likely support this construct. And then the defense will say that Caylee's death was an accident? And KC covered up emotionally by mimicking emotions she never really felt?

But what about the three strips of duct tape? How do they fit in--and ok, one strip maybe if you are emotionally abused and trying to mask a negligent death as a kidnapping, but three strips? And what about the extremely high levels of chloroform in that trunk?

Argh. For all of us, argh. Especially for Caylee. I think I do see where the defense might be headed and I do.not.like.it.one.bit.

This is some evidence I will really look forward to seeing. The evidence may point in just the opposite direction. Plus, ICA was an adult when she was pregnant with Caylee, and there are many options available even to non-adults besides being "forced" by your mother to do something.

Have we heard anyone besides ICA say her mother "forced her" to carry Caylee full term and give birth to her? I keep looking for this information but I haven't found it yet.
 
Not trying to be a smart aleck here Beach - but I keep reading these warnings or requests and am not clear about what your intent is.
I thought today was a particularly civil thread on the board so am just not understanding what the heck the problem is. Obviously my intent, and I imagine that of others on the board, to follow your instructions but can you elaborate please?

Can you expand for the sake of myself and others on the board so we understand? Or else is it a request to just watch live and read only? Cause I don't get it at all.

She's talking about the one-liners like "JB just got schooled" or things like that. When we have them one after another, it makes the threads zoom and people have problems keeping up. I know a couple of times today I stepped away for a VERY short time and came back to three more pages and half were one-liners. They were funny, true, but if you are trying to get information and can't watch the screen constantly, it is annoying for many

The chat room will be a great way to solve the problem. Here's a link to how it works:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68121"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]



Let's not continue to be OT here though. If you have questions, contact the mod of your choice privately.

:tyou:
 
Ssejors, I have to apologize one WSer to another, as I am one who sometimes can follow the hearings live and who does lean to the smart-a$$ side.

First off, I am sorry for any of my specific posts that may have impeded your (or others'!) ability to follow along.

Second, I think you're on to something here. Maybe during the trial we can have both a "real-time updates" thread and a "chat" thread running side by side? Maybe this would just be a moderators' worst nightmare. IDK. Either way, thanks for the nudge that I might think my smarta$$ comment is hysterical but not every reader will. :blowkiss:

I personally find you hilarious and a real tension breaker.

Maybe there can be 2 threads, one with a couple of volunteers who type fast to do the facts, just the facts, and the other for the usual 'fuster cluck' (was that the right term?) If enough people volunteered, the day could be broken into shifts of maybe an hour or two, so there would be a concise thread, but everyone would still have a chance to hang out, discuss, and voice their opinions.
 
Yeah? And his highlighting of THC found in the grave wax on the paper towels really does nothing to get the whole "Caylee was subjected to drugs" thing out of the juries mind. The whole "hey we found marijuana chemicals in what is in all likelihood the decaying remains of your 2 year old daughters fatty tissue" is not something that the jury is going to miss or forgive.

You know, all that really says to anyone listening, or any juror, who has ever been around folks who partake of the weed, is that there might have been a paper towel in that trash bag from TL's that was at some point used to clean a bowl or wipe down a poker that was used to scrape out a bowl, and then KC used that same already-used paper towel to help clean up the mess caused by her own daughter's "decomping" body.

The defense needs to back away from the THC thing slowly and softly, IMO. The main thing it's suggesting is that paper towels from TL's place were used to mop up whatever happened in that trunk. NOT an impression that a good defense attorney would like to leave in a juror's mind IMO and :cow: and whatnot.
 
I just loved Dr. Vass's analogy when describing how one would recognize an odour..Decomp. is unique and once smelled you will always recognize it..just like once you smell a skunk spray..you dont need to be a rocket scientist to recognize it...So So true...Odours are enblazened into your brain once experienced..and that memory is triggered immediately when you smell it again..I can attest to that sadly:sick:
Respect LyndyLoo - especially that you can attest to it.....

My :twocents: It makes me wonder how long that garage had the lingering scent of Caylee in it.....or is it even possible that it still could from time to time?
 
You know, all that really says to anyone listening, or any juror, who has ever been around folks who partake of the weed, is that there might have been a paper towel in that trash bag from TL's that was at some point used to clean a bowl or wipe down a poker that was used to scrape out a bowl, and then KC used that same already-used paper towel to help clean up the mess caused by her own daughter's "decomping" body.

The defense needs to back away from the THC thing slowly and softly, IMO. The main thing it's suggesting is that paper towels from TL's place were used to mop up whatever happened in that trunk. NOT an impression that a good defense attorney would like to leave in a juror's mind IMO and :cow: and whatnot.

I think what JB meant to suggest was that TL and his friends smoked weed, ate burgers, and then wiped their mouths with the paper towels, which then contained both THC and certain fatty acids from the meat grease.

Did Dr. Vass have any response to the "hamburger-plus-weed" theory other than "a hamburger wouldn't leave a 1 1/2 foot stain in the trunk?"
 
My :twocents: after watching it all. Some semi random opservations (and I promise no... ok minimal snark :innocent:)

- Hair Banding. I think the state more than accomplished what they needed to. Their witness was positively unflappable. The hair evidence will all come in.

- Dogs. The defense spoke a lot about dogs, but somewhere failed to read what it was they were allowed to go after and what their actual goal was. They had to establish that these two individual dogs were in some way not properly trained or certified. They were not there to challenge sniffer dogs as a whole. Dogs have already been subjected to Frye and are accepted by the courts. Apparently nobody told JB this as his arguments went everywhere but on point. The prosecution managed to get both the highly detailed, precise and succinct training and certification record on bones entered in clearly, and they got Gerus's 20,800+ hours of training and experience in. This is a done manner. JB failed to even come close to his goal. The dogs will be in in my estimation. No question about it. As an added bonus JB managed to elicit the dog handler to offer his own expert opinions on the smell of human decomposition in the car and his experience with which to offer it. Way to go Defense Team!

- Dr Fairgreave. Stick a fork in him, he's done. Just a horrible witness all around. He is worthless as a defense witness testifying about dogs, having less actual expertise than a typical pet owner. Even worse his testimony regarding chloroform, his actual area of expertise as a forensic toxicologist, was rather damning for the defense. He basically supported Dr. Vass's findings that the reason the amount of chloroform could not be accurately stated was the amount was so high that it was beyond the instruments ability to determine.

- Decomposition/Dr. Vass - Dr. Vass came off as a smooth, skilled professional witness. Extremely credible. Very easy for a lay person such as a juror to understand. I am not going to predict which way the judge will go regarding Dr. Vass's tests on the trunk space air. But if he does deny these tests or this science under Frye, it will be the result of his (HHJP's) own research into the matter. The defense did not even come close to presenting any valid or comprehensible arguments regarding the sniffing tests. Perhaps the defense may yet have an expert in the wings to offer a counter opinion on this? (I lost track of what they did and did not finish today). But the defense today was continually arguing evidence instead of science. Which was not what they needed to do under Frye. Maybe if HHJP happens to stumble accriss RH's blog he may find a good argument for tossing the science. But he did not get it from the defense.

- Overall performance by lawyers. LDB is by far the strongest most competent and most compelling lawyer in the room. Every time she gets up she elicits the exact response she needs. She shoots down BS with simple easy to understand facts. JA needs to work a little on his emotional control. Although I do think a lot of his "Objection" spam was to teach DCS a lesson following her antics in the depositions. DCS herself comes accross, ummm... not well. A weird mixture of a flighty aunt with way too many cats, and someone playing gotcha over weird verbal games. There may be a method to her madness, but really she just puts everyone to sleep. She is a medical malpractice lawyer, more used to facing a similar plaintiffs attorney, then a professional prosecutor, and more used to be facing medical lay people than true professional LE experts and forensic specialists. And it really shows. HHJP quickly lost patience with her. AF is probably the best resource or hope that KC has right now, assuming she does not bail after JB's antics of today. She is warm. She is polished. She is professional. And it really shows with how the prosecutions and the judges attitude changes as soon as she steps up (and gets JB or DCS to step down). She could possibly save KC's life in all of this. I just hope KC and her other lawyers realize this. And then we come to JB...

- JB. Sigh! The most obvious thing about watching JB today is that he was only ever taught one way to present in court. It's like his whole courtroom presentation style was learned from watching lawyer TV shows, as opposed to actually taking cases the full way through a trial. He does not seem to be able to switch gears between a dramatic adversarial presentation for a lay jury, or a more directed presentation to a single expert observer, ie the judge. Notice how every time LDB questions a witness or speaks in a hearing it is very clear that it is all directed in a clear and succinct manner towards the judge. Whereas JB is playing gotcha antics without an audience. Or is arguing points that while fascinating to a jury, will immediately be dismissed as legally irrelevant by a judge. Dr. Vass's profit motive argument today was a great example of this. It might play to the jury as a reason to discount the witness, but today the judge wanted science. He didn't get it.

And this is above and beyond the very clear realization today that JB has lost, totally lost the professional trust of pretty much every one around him save his client (who probably still thinks he was fantastic today for telling that judge and mean old JA what for). It was beyond apparent to everyone that his apology at the previous hearing to get out of sanctions or contempt charges (or whatever it technically is) was made in bad faith. he never had any intention of honoring anything he said beyond the 10 minutes it would need to get him out of immediate trouble. HHJP has the patience of a saint to not take start holding the defendant responsible for he antics of her lead attorney.

-HHJP. Looked very irritated every time the camera panned to him. He wanted science and true materials pertaining to Frye. Aside from a few thankfully brief prosecution sessions, he didn't get it. Instead he got a parade of irrelevant evidentiary nonsense. He had me worried watching him on camera during the great JB smackdown. I really thought the poor man was having some sort of Hypertensive Incident. His right eye was half lidded, his left eye was wide open and spasming. And his speech seemed off with some unusual pauses until he was able to collect himself. I think JB very nearly found his breaking point today, and only the timely intervention of Ms. Finnel prevented the situation from really escalating.

All around I think this will score as a major win for the prosecutors, and stand among some of JB's worst performances to date.

Mega thanks Faefrost - IMO an outstanding summary!!!
 
Yes, agree here and I'm surprised the State hasn't shown us even a peak that they will go there and where ICA got that information. There is way too much IMO from ICA dosing Caylee during her brief life.

So the interesting bit is - where did ICA get the chloroform? Hmmm cause I pretty much doubt that lazy gal mixed it up herself. She is definitely the road of least resistance kind of a person.

BBM

One of my theories from long ago in the chloroform thread, where I was not appreciated, lol, is she happened across it somewhere (such as a tattoo shop, for example) and stole it. Like, "Oooooo, chloroform...what can I do with that?"

I don't think she made it, either, and IIRC, one of the reports stated something about it being consistent with 'commercial' grade.

And while she very well might have used it on Caylee, I don't think it's necessarily so. She might have put it in the trunk to hide it and a small amount leaked out, she could have tested it on a rag, then threw the rag in the trunk, etc.

I have a hard time coming up with a scenario that involves not only chloroform, but also duct tape over the nose and mouth, unless she made Caylee drink it or else injected Caylee with it.

MOO
 
I think what JB meant to suggest was that TL and his friends smoked weed, ate burgers, and then wiped their mouths with the paper towels, which then contained both THC and certain fatty acids from the meat grease.

Did Dr. Vass have any response to the "hamburger-plus-weed" theory other than "a hamburger wouldn't leave a 1 1/2 foot stain in the trunk?"

Nope. And IIRC, it was very shortly thereafter that we went to another HHJP-inspired 5 minute break...
 
In addition to us chatterboxes cutting down on the one-liners, when the hearing starts, go to Google and type in: Casey Anthony hearing live updates

Lots of hits with no chatting; just the facts.
 
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