Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[EllaMinnowP]

Is this the perhaps the article you remembered reading? It doesn't cover Rozzi clarifying during his cross examination about RA being already on his way to the store when Dulin called vs. randomly asking to meet there like the one you already posted but they do reference the note being written before Rozzi's cross.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-tip-marked-cleared-found-while-cleaning-out-desk-put-richard-allen-on-the-radar-in-2022/

On Feb. 18 2017— four days after the girls were found— Dulin was given the Richard Allen lead sheet. Dulin testified that he prefers to meet with people at their home or at a law enforcement office. He said, however, that Allen wanted to meet in a grocery store parking lot.
While Dulin was explaining this, Allen emphatically wrote a note to defense attorney Andrew Baldwin. Baldwin showed his partner Bradley Rozzi.
Dulin testified that Allen met him in the parking lot and they spoke for around ten minutes. He did not record the interview, but took notes on the back of the lead sheet.

Eta: here's another article that mentions Rozzi clarifying that RA "suggested meeting at the store because he was already on his way there".

My own opinion: Who's to say whether RA was really "on his way" to the store or not, no way to prove that one way or another now of course. Could've just as easily been a bit of quick thinking on his part to keep law enforcement away from his house & wife. (The fact that RA was apparently so "emphatic" in remembering and making sure everyone knew this only furthers my thinking)

THANK YOU so very much for finding those links. I’ve been trying to look still when I have had chances, but also trying to delve into all this unspent cartridge testimony coverage, too, also having to do stuff IRL… I appreciate you! & Yes, the one from WANE for sure was what I remember…. “emphatically”, not vehemently. & I stand corrected that the cross examination question was in the same article. I must have read the WISH piece soon after, and meshed them together in my brain. If I created any confusion, please accept my apology because it wasn’t intended.

Having another look at the WANE article jogged my memory about other things I learned from Dulin’s testimony. I really am curious how well he was received by the jury. Seems to me that at least a few major mistakes can be attributed to him: Parked at “Farm Bureau”, NAME, Address…. But I am tainted, and they are not. So, when I hear that he’s implying that it wasn’t normal practice to meet in the grocery store parking lot & that Allen “refused” to meet at the usual interview spots, it makes me wonder why he never spoke to any of his comrades about this out of the ordinary encounter. It seems like it would stand out for him, and maybe bug him as the investigation continued foooorrrrevvver. I just wish I could see and hear Dulin on the stand for myself.

Thanks again for getting my homework done for me, and for sharing your opinion. Now you can deduce mine of DD. As far as RA, imo, things aren’t looking too good for him just being an innocent man who was trying to be a good citizen by coming forward. I’m still evaluating what I’ve seen about the unspent cartridge. I’m not a juror, but if I were, I would definitely need something that made me certain BARD, before I could be okay with putting the man in prison for the rest of his life. I am looking forward to the content of his confessions.

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849988459034722652

 

[Megnut]

Quote the Murder Sheet, of today's expert who they described as unflappable.

"She stuck to her guns."

I only report it. I didn't say it.

 

[Spartygirl]

IANAL, and I hate preformative tricks from either side, but a tiny part of me wishes that the last witness on Saturday introduces just ONE of the handwritten confessions, maybe from March.

That way the Jurors have almost 48 hrs to contemplate. Ok, it is just one confession. Without details. It doesn't change my mind, not really. And then Monday comes, and the confessions and their details build and build and build, hopefully over the course of one or two days.

That would be effective.

All musings, and MOO

Agree !!..
Give the jurors something to think about over the weekend.

 

[MassGuy]

Quote the Murder Sheet, of today's expert who they described as unflappable.

"She stuck to her guns."

I only report it. I didn't say it.

That was certainly the impression I got, just from the brief back and forth that was quoted.

 

[iamshadow21]

Quote the Murder Sheet, of today's expert who they described as unflappable.

"She stuck to her guns."

I only report it. I didn't say it.

Isn't that the perk of being a forensic scientist? Dad jokes and puns about your specialist subject?

Or has CSI been lying to me my whole adult life?

MOO

 

[technicallymissing]

THANK YOU so very much for finding those links. I’ve been trying to look still when I have had chances, but also trying to delve into all this unspent cartridge testimony coverage, too, also having to do stuff IRL… I appreciate you! & Yes, the one from WANE for sure was what I remember…. “emphatically”, not vehemently. & I stand corrected that the cross examination question was in the same article. I must have read the WISH piece soon after, and meshed them together in my brain. If I created any confusion, please accept my apology because it wasn’t intended.

Having another look at the WANE article jogged my memory about other things I learned from Dulin’s testimony. I really am curious how well he was received by the jury. Seems to me that at least a few major mistakes can be attributed to him: Parked at “Farm Bureau”, NAME, Address…. But I am tainted, and they are not. So, when I hear that he’s implying that it wasn’t normal practice to meet in the grocery store parking lot & that Allen “refused” to meet at the usual interview spots, it makes me wonder why he never spoke to any of his comrades about this out of the ordinary encounter. It seems like it would stand out for him, and maybe bug him as the investigation continued foooorrrrevvver. I just wish I could see and hear Dulin on the stand for myself.

Thanks again for getting my homework done for me, and for sharing your opinion. Now you can deduce mine of DD. As far as RA, imo, things aren’t looking too good for him just being an innocent man who was trying to be a good citizen by coming forward. I’m still evaluating what I’ve seen about the unspent cartridge. I’m not a juror, but if I were, I would definitely need something that made me certain BARD, before I could be okay with putting the man in prison for the rest of his life. I am looking forward to the content of his confessions.

You didn't create any confusion at all, I think all of us on these threads have been essentially constantly overstimulating ourselves since the trial began with watching, listening, and reading any bit of information we can get our hands on (and probably at least two of those things at once if we're being honest). This no cameras/audio thing really is crazy trying to keep up with! I actually hadn't seen anywhere the bit about RA "vehemently/emphatically"/insert-third-synonym-here writing a note so that piqued my interest and I went looking. I know how infuriating it is to not be able to scrounge up a specific scrap of info you remember coming across at some point so I'm happy I could find what you were thinking of.

I don't disagree with you about some of your thoughts on Dulin. Particularly when contrasted with someone like Kathy Shank who had SUCH a close attention to detail and went so above and beyond for something that was simply a volunteer position (not to diminish how much she & the rest of the town care about justice for the girls, but you know what I mean), it is a bit hard for me to not raise my eyebrows a hair wondering why some of the RA stuff wasn't followed up on more thoroughly in the beginning, or, as you said, as it dragged on year after year after year unsolved. None of that changes my opinion on RA's guilt, however, I don't think it is relevant in that sense.

I know many people don't enjoy The Murder Sheet as a source and that's completely fine- but they have been pretty thorough and consistent about covering jury questions for each witness and both they and this WishTV article mention that the jury asked Dulin what Allen's hair was like during the grocery store interview only (he didn't remember). No other questions reported. It seems odd to me that the jury didn't have anything else for him, but I have seen nothing else anywhere I've looked or listened so I am tentatively assuming that was indeed the only question they had.

 

[rez125]

Good discussion on AB's live tonight re: the bullet testing that was mentioned in court today.

About 1:09:00 onwards.

 

[ClearAhead]

Quote the Murder Sheet, of today's expert who they described as unflappable.

"She stuck to her guns."

I only report it. I didn't say it.

KW mentioned recording bullet points <groan>

 

[m00c0w]

Good discussion on AB's live tonight re: the bullet testing that was mentioned in court today.

About 1:09:00 onwards.

I thought I’d give it a shot. The first thing she talks about is the forensic firearm expert noting orange discoloration on the breechface… and I guess AB did some googling and came to the conclusion that the orange might be from him having replaced the extractor spring with an orange one?

Certainly not off to a good start.

JMO

 

[technicallymissing]

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Seven: The Forensic Firearms Examiner

We discuss the seventh day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a whole day of testimony from former forensic firearms examiner, Melissa Oberg. Support The Murder...

murdersheetpodcast.com

43:39 timestamp above, regarding Brad Rozzi's cross-examination of Melissa Oberg today: Áine from TMS says "Frankly, watching juries is a fool's errand because you never know what they're thinking. But this is the absolute most annoyed I ever have seen them. It was not subtle." Kevin agreed "very, very annoyed".

Kevin also says Rozzi "seemed to lose the interest of the jury relatively early on".

 

[rez125]

I thought I’d give it a shot. The first thing she talks about is the forensic firearm expert noting orange discoloration on the breechface… and I guess AB did some googling and came to the conclusion that the orange might be from him having replaced the extractor spring with an orange one?

Certainly not off to a good start.

JMO

Did you get to the part when she brings a guest on, maybe I was a few minutes behind with my timestamp.

 

[Vern]

@Niner

18/10/24: DENIIED - Defense Motion To Use Composite Sketches

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/24/Order-prohibiting-defense-use-of-sketches.pdf

/10/24: GRANTED - Motion To Transport Kegan Kline

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/24/Kegan-Kline-transport-order-1.pdf

 

[m00c0w]

Did you get to the part when she brings a guest on, maybe I was a few minutes behind with my timestamp.

Yes, and I am unimpressed. I'm not sure if they just haven't thought this through, or they're being deliberately misleading, but we're talking about the extractor and ejector. Neither of these come into play until the cartridge is fired. It's not like we're talking about comparing breechface deformations on fired versus unfired rounds - the pressure and expansion of the brass should have zero impact on the ejector/extractor markings, because the markings are made after the expansion takes place. It's not like they make marks, the bullet then expands, and the marks are then deformed with the bullet. The bullet expands, and the ejector and extractor make marks on the expanded bullet. It should be a 1:1 comparison; the items of interest are the markings, not the bullet as a whole.

The entire argument I'm seeing on AB is a complete red herring.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

Yes, and I am unimpressed. I'm not sure if they just haven't thought this through, or they're being deliberately misleading, but we're talking about the extractor and ejector. Neither of these come into play until the cartridge is fired. It's not like we're talking about comparing breechface deformations on fired versus unfired rounds - the pressure and expansion of the brass should have zero impact on the ejector/extractor markings, because the markings are made after the expansion takes place. It's not like they make marks, the bullet then expands, and the marks are then deformed with the bullet. The bullet expands, and the ejector and extractor make marks on the expanded bullet. It should be a 1:1 comparison; the items of interest are the markings, not the bullet as a whole.

The entire argument I'm seeing on AB is a complete red herring.

JMO

I turned it off around that point. I honestly felt like throwing my computer. Just utter nonsense from a couple people who somehow think they know more than a firearms expert who has made a career out of her expertise.

They reminded me of those people who suddenly became structural engineers after that Baltimore bridge collapse.

 

[technicallymissing]

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Seven: The Forensic Firearms Examiner

We discuss the seventh day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a whole day of testimony from former forensic firearms examiner, Melissa Oberg. Support The Murder...

murdersheetpodcast.com

50:50 timestamp above

Apparently the defense handed out some pictures to the jurors as specific exhibits but forgot to label them (Exhibit A, B, C, etc). Rozzi had to go up to the jury and was holding up a copy of each picture he was trying to reference and telling the jury to take out the corresponding one in the bundle of pictures they had. Judge Gull suggested the defense redo the pictures for tomorrow with labels.

 

[MassGuy]

Don’t like to hear this. Evidence is pointless if the jury can’t understand it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850005008059650334

 

[rez125]

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Seven: The Forensic Firearms Examiner

We discuss the seventh day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a whole day of testimony from former forensic firearms examiner, Melissa Oberg. Support The Murder...

murdersheetpodcast.com

43:39 timestamp above, regarding Brad Rozzi's cross-examination of Melissa Oberg today: Áine from TMS says "Frankly, watching juries is a fool's errand because you never know what they're thinking. But this is the absolute most annoyed I ever have seen them. It was not subtle." Kevin agreed "very, very annoyed".

Kevin also says Rozzi "seemed to lose the interest of the jury relatively early on".

Funny Kevin didn't say the Jury was lost already during the State's witness direct.

 

[m00c0w]

The jury asked 13 questions including if there was a way to tell if the Winchester 40 S&W found at the scene was from the same lot as the Winchester 40 S&W found at the crime scene. Oberg said there wasn’t a way to tell.

The jury is really asking some good questions.

I'm also curious what exactly happened here:

During the cycling discussion, Rozzi said he’d demonstrate again and put on blue gloves by the defense table and walked up to the small table below the judge’s bench where Allen’s gun was sitting in the evidence box. As he started to touch the top of the box, he said something to Judge Gull and Prosecuting Attorney James Luttrell joined them. After some discussion at the bench, Rozzi just turned around and took the blue gloves off.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-gun-expert-testimony-on-magic-bullet/

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850010521849741461