Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*

[katydid23]

Yeah, that’s a fair point.

Although, to play devil’s advocate, there’s a huge gulf between being infuriated by someone’s behaviour and wanting them dead. My MIL drives me utterly crazy but I still love her and want the best for her.

True. But reading the posts she shared where she is livid with them, says they are a 'lost cause' and so "F$#!*# THEM"---that could just be someone angry. Except for the traces of Death Caps on the tipped dehydrator and in the leftovers. It adds a critical element to that question of accidental or intentional, IMO.

It would be a very odd person who announced “actually I’d been really annoyed with them lately so I’m fine with this” in response to their deaths lol

Right, but she had the opportunity to tell the messy truth immediately, so the doctors would know exactly what to do. And she didn't take that opportunity.

 

[Scuffy35]

Semantics though. In Victoria you are considered separated (for divorce purposes) if you have lived apart for at least 12 months.

Simon's accountant was right to put separated on his tax return in 2022.

The finances seem a tangled mess even after separating in 2015, not with just the mother's inheritance, but moving Simons name from one title to another and the interest free loans (but indexed to inflation) that she (or was it she and Simon) made to two of Simon's sibling families of around $400K each.

I remember there was also media report somewhere that the siblings were making the repayments to Simon, though they were supposed to be separated. Maybe these agreements went south and is a contributing factor of her anger against Simon and his family.

In wonder if the prosecution will delve into the financial situation, as depending what the financial situation is and particularly the loans, it could add another layer to demonstrate resentment against Simon and the family above what the court has seen so far from text and facebook messages.

 

[LinasK]

Erin is an atheist.

If she was an atheist, why marry a religious person/into a religious family? That's bound to cause problems.

 

[SouthAussie]

I remember there was also media report somewhere that the siblings were making the repayments to Simon, though they were supposed to be separated. Maybe these agreements went south and is a contributing factor of her anger against Simon and his family.

One was making repayments to Simon, one was making repayments to Erin.


Ms Terrington confirmed that after Erin and Simon’s separation, future repayments went to Simon only.

Matthew said that after Erin and Simon separated in 2015, he continued to make repayments to Erin.

Court sees footage of Erin Patterson leaving hospital against medical advice — as it happened

A Supreme Court murder trial hears Erin Patterson was initially "reluctant" to have her children brought to hospital for medical checks after they allegedly ate leftovers from a lunch contaminated with death cap mushrooms. Look back on how the day's hearing unfolded in our blog.

www.abc.net.au

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-murder-trial-live-mushroom-cook-faces-court-for-day-7-of-trial/live-coverage/0cabfb869d16b78826ed092fcfc59102

 

[katydid23]

May I ask which parts of the evidence in particular you found helpful in sketching her character as this? I’m super curious because for me, there’s been frustratingly little provided by the prosecution for me to form any real opinion. I confess I was hoping we’d get more, if only because I sleep better at night when I can believe the killers amongst us are easily identifiable!

But with the exception of the events around the crimes she’s accused of, everything I’ve seen of EP seems fairly ordinary. Yes, there are examples of her bitching about her husband and in laws, but nothing particularly unusual, or wildly vitriolic.
It all seems like things ordinary, reasonable and non-murderous people might do or say too, during life’s stresses and strains.

If we take the exchanges about the husband and child support as an example; what *should* EP have done in this situation, if she genuinely believed their father was skirting his responsibilities to their kids?

I’m sure we can agree there are circumstances where ‘not taking no for an answer’ and pushing would be the *right* thing to do, and not an indication of any great character flaw or pathology. If you imagine for a moment she’s absolutely in the right on this, the messages just seem like her fighting for her kids.

We haven’t really had enough evidence to determine whose claim was more credible here, but we do know SP was paying a very small amount of Child maintenance, so we know her claims were not totally without basis.

I’ve certainly known ppl very much like who you’re describing, and IME they usually leave a trail of social transgressions in their wake. Conflict with the kids’ school, with other parents, with neighbours, and heaps of scathing reviews for businesses etc. Refusing her barrister’s advice and insisting on self representation, or taking the stand. All of this may be true for EP too, but afaik we haven’t seen any of it to date. I guess I’m just hungry for something tangible lol

Poison is a secretive, undercover type of weapon. Not the type used by volatile, physically aggressive people who have loud arguments and fights with kids teachers or their neighbours etc.

They and to hide and stay in the shadows. And I think that's kind of how she was living her life. IMO

<modsnip: Removed due to sub judice>

I don't think you can look at a person, talk to their friends and family, and get a clear idea if they are really capable of murder or not. Many people hide behind 'masks' in their daily interactions.

If there is strong circumstantial evidence pointing towards a possible murder, you can't always see video or audio or written evidence, that they were threatening to kill their family, etc. Usually it's the opposite.

Many women who have been convicted of murder, had hidden their actions very well. They would act like loving wives and mothers, but then feeding toxins, like antifreeze, arsenic, nightshade, in meals or coffees each day.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

It sounds as though Simon's parents were allegedly called on by EP to get involved in her disputes with Simon.

I know, right? Most grown adults, who are middle aged and share 2 kids nonetheless, can usually work everyday matters out between themselves. If things get too far gone, or become large issues, isn't that what counselling and mediation are for, by professionals skilled in this area? I mean they aren't dirt poor, and it would probably be a good investment for them, as a couple and individually. Maybe certain parties didn't want to be seen as wrong by the experts?

It just seems to me that it's airing dirty laundry and trying to get the family elders on your side, so you can be right and get your way. I don't think anyone's parents need to know all the ins and outs of their adult child's relationship. Just MOO of course.

 

[katydid23]

They said to both Simon and to Ian that they may be misremembering.

They said Ian was misremembering the conversation about EP having cancer---he misunderstand that she was merely saying she feared she might have cancer.

And they said he misremembered the color of the plates and whether they served themselves, as EP had earlier said in her statement.

They said to the Child Protection person - Katrina Cripps - that she may be misremembering. I recall that one easily, because she came back with a terse (and very good) response.

It is pretty hard to say that doctors may be misremembering because they have actual documented records.

imo

They said Simon was misremembering what the victims had told him about the luncheon.

And he was mistaken about whether EP had asked about his parent's condition, and how they were doing.

 

[SouthAussie]

They said Ian was misremembering the conversation about EP having cancer---he misunderstand that she was merely saying she feared she might have cancer.

And they said he misremembered the color of the plates and whether they served themselves, as EP had earlier said in her statement.

They said Simon was misremembering what the victims had told him about the luncheon.

And he was mistaken about whether EP had asked about his parent's condition, and how they were doing.

That's right. Thanks for remembering. The defence also had this exchange with Katrina Cripps, the Child Protection witness ...


Erin Patterson’s defence lawyer, Sophie Stafford, is cross-examining Cripps.

Regarding the conversation on Sunday, Stafford tells Cripps that Patterson “did not tell you that Simon had told her that the others were unwell at that time”.

Cripps replies: You can suggest it but I’m certain.

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I wonder if Erin decided to invite Ian and Heather because she saw them as part of the problem as far as the negative effects of religion she was experiencing from the family eg "just pray for the children together". With them out of the picture (as well as Don, Gail and Simon), she would be truly free of the religious constraints and attitudes she was battling....

Did she ever consider moving interstate?

 

[Jake18]

Did she ever consider moving interstate?

I think she had a small life and a small social circle. We haven’t heard from any real life friends but her Facebook vents are over sharing, IMO, to people she hasn’t met in person. Hence why her relationship with Simon’s parents was important - I don’t think she had many people in her life.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I know, right? Most grown adults, who are middle aged and share 2 kids nonetheless, can usually work everyday matters out between themselves. If things get too far gone, or become large issues, isn't that what counselling and mediation are for, by professionals skilled in this area? I mean they aren't dirt poor, and it would probably be a good investment for them, as a couple and individually. Maybe certain parties didn't want to be seen as wrong by the experts?

It just seems to me that it's airing dirty laundry and trying to get the family elders on your side, so you can be right and get your way. I don't think anyone's parents need to know all the ins and outs of their adult child's relationship. Just MOO of course.

Yes, I thought it was odd that they had a group chat on Signal, probably initiated by Erin. If they had have divorced, they could have done family mediation.

 

[katydid23]

That's right. Thanks for remembering. The defence also had this exchange with Katrina Cripps, the Child Protection witness ...


Erin Patterson’s defence lawyer, Sophie Stafford, is cross-examining Cripps.

Regarding the conversation on Sunday, Stafford tells Cripps that Patterson “did not tell you that Simon had told her that the others were unwell at that time”.

Cripps replies: You can suggest it but I’m certain.

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

YES, and that is super important, imo.

I think it is critical to know if EP knew on Sunday, that her luncheon guests were hospitalised and unwell.

I am relatively certain Simon would have told her as a way to protect his kids from eating any leftovers.

But the defense attorney tried to suggest that was not the case, and EP did not know about them being unwell. The defense needs her to deny knowing about the illnesses, because she did not rush her kids to the hospital to be checked out. And she went ahead and served them leftovers.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Was it reported that the patient said stomach issues became a problem on the night of the lunch (Sat)? Then on the following day, there were no obvious stomach issues for the gas station stop and drive to the cancelled pilot lesson. Yet, on the Monday morning, after the patient returns to the hospital from an absence, the nurse is able to record five events on a “bowel chart” for her patient. Quite unusual.

Seems quite convenient that the stomach issues only seem to appear as required, and can be held at bay when required to leave the house.

Cespon said Patterson told her she had felt sick on the evening of 29 July, then had diarrhoea all day on Sunday 30 July.

“She was distressed and emotional including the thought of her kids (having to go to hospital),” Cespon said.

“She was saying she feels unwell, that she has this pain, that she has been having these loose bowel motions, (and) she was emotional about feeling unwell.”

Shortened and bold by me.

Is that the same Sunday that she took her son to the flying lesson that ended up being cancelled just before they arrived? The trip that takes an hour or so each way, along with the lesson time? Lesson time itself could be an hour, and Google tells me you can actually spend 2-2 1/2 hours at the airport in total for a lesson, if the lesson had actually gone ahead. The trip she chose to wear cream pants for? The trip where she stopped at a service station and didn't use the toilet, at least not for toileting things? The service station stop that included purchasing lollies, a wrap and a sandwhich? The same trip where they stopped a second time for food, including dim sims, a hot dog and a coffee for Erin? The trip where the second stop didn't include a toilet trip, but involved remaining seated in the car so to have a "cork" effect?

To me, these are not the actions of a woman who had "diarrhoea all day". They might be the actions of a woman who had taken medication like Imodium to stop the diarrhoea, if she really wanted her son's lesson to go ahead and had nobody else willing to take him, which could be the case with Simon concerned about his parents, aunt and uncle, her inlaws were going downhill fast, and I'm not hearing of any real life friends or relatives on her side of the family to ask. However, if this were the case, she would not have told the nurse she had "diarrhoea all day", she'd say something like "Well, I did have diarrhoea in the morning, but took some Imodium just before the trip and I was OK."

Or is that just me? I wouldn't think to lie to a nurse about my condition, or the intensity of the pain, I'd tell it like it is. Why would you not just say you used medication to help stop it? Unless you didn't actually take medication to stop it and you were worried that may show up in tests somehow. But you'd surely have to know that it would come out, even if you were never accused of murder, that you were driving all over the countryside whilst you had uncontrolled diarrhoea? I mean you had your son with you, it's going to come up that she was not driving the porcelain bus all afternoon.

 

[Two SCents]

I know, right? Most grown adults, who are middle aged and share 2 kids nonetheless, can usually work everyday matters out between themselves. If things get too far gone, or become large issues, isn't that what counselling and mediation are for, by professionals skilled in this area? I mean they aren't dirt poor, and it would probably be a good investment for them, as a couple and individually. Maybe certain parties didn't want to be seen as wrong by the experts?

It just seems to me that it's airing dirty laundry and trying to get the family elders on your side, so you can be right and get your way. I don't think anyone's parents need to know all the ins and outs of their adult child's relationship. Just MOO of course.

Erin did reach out to her BIL, who is a pastor, and from his testimony it appears Erin was looking to have marriage counselling. I think there is a depth of Christianity within the family she married into which put her in a position of having to do things in ways she found frustrating. IMO

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Sorry, I'm still playing catch up, so may be repeating things others have already said here.

I think just showing photographic evidence that she sometimes dehydrated fresh mushrooms?

I don't think so. I think the prosecution are trying to paint a picture of a woman with an unusual, perhaps unhealthy, interest in mushrooms. Enough to forage them, have books on them, dehydrate them for later use, purchase a dehydrator for the purpose, measure them and take photos, take photos of mushrooms while out and about, powder dehydrated mushrooms and hide them in all sorts of food including brownies, take photos of her dehydrator, seek out a website/app that identifies mushrooms, look at a webpage that has death cap mushrooms on it etc.

Question, not to be gross, but couldn't they test her stool sample to see if it really had Ecoli in it rather than just urine?

They believed they were. They asked for stool samples, and Erin returned what appeared more like urine samples. 5 of them in the one morning I believe. She claimed they were stools, despite being the colour and consistency of urine, but with a little bit of brown matter. I would suggest that if she did not have diarrhoea, or at least not as bad as claimed, then if would be hard to create a stool sample if the need to go wasn't there. Urine is different, it's generally easier to strain some of that out. We don't know what she'd had to drink that morning to help that along either.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Erin did reach out to her BIL, who is a pastor, and from his testimony it appears Erin was looking to have marriage counselling. I think there is a depth of Christianity within the family she married into which put her in a position of having to do things in ways she found frustrating. IMO


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It's still keeping it in the family though, and being his brother, it creates another potentially biased view point. If she really wanted counselling with no ties to the family, she could have pushed for it. Simon seems like a reasonable man, one who sounds like he doesn't want to drag his parents or brother into his troubles. Even if it was faith based counselling, they could go to a town further afield to get an outsiders view.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

If she was an atheist, why marry a religious person/into a religious family? That's bound to cause problems.

Love. Love does strange things, and love can overcome everything. Allegedly.

Yes, I thought it was odd that they had a group chat on Signal, probably initiated by Erin. If they had have divorced, they could have done family mediation.

I don't necessarily see it as odd to have a group chat, especially back when things were good between Erin & Simon, or at least amicable. There are children involved too, so it's not like there weren't things worth sharing with the whole family. Our family has a group chat, but not once has anyone's relationship issues come up or have we needed to mediate anything. It's the usual sharing pics of grandkids, planning get togethers, banter etc.

 

[Ellery84]

None of them deserved any of this!

erin erin erin is so telling isn't it

It is. That’s what this is all about. Erin Erin Erin.

 

[Kemug]

I wonder if Erin decided to invite Ian and Heather because she saw them as part of the problem as far as the negative effects of religion she was experiencing from the family eg "just pray for the children together". With them out of the picture (as well as Don, Gail and Simon), she would be truly free of the religious constraints and attitudes she was battling....

Yes, but - why on earth didn't she just leave and get a divorce? Yes, she had her nice new house. But couldn't she have bought or built another one, say 30 - 40 miles away? Still close enough for the kids to see their father and grandparents, but a whole new environment. She would still have had her online friends. I'm sure she would have had plenty of money even after a divorce. It seems she just wanted to get them all out of her life, and I'm afraid that it ended up being an all-consuming hatred.

 

[Kemug]

True. But reading the posts she shared where she is livid with them, says they are a 'lost cause' and so "F$#!*# THEM"---that could just be someone angry. Except for the traces of Death Caps on the tipped dehydrator and in the leftovers. It adds a critical element to that question of accidental or intentional, IMO.

Right, but she had the opportunity to tell the messy truth immediately, so the doctors would know exactly what to do. And she didn't take that opportunity.

As a legal question, if the definite facts of the matter were that she had made a genuine mistake, but then realised what must had happened, and decided not to tell the doctors and so 3 people died, what would be the legal position? I daresay there may have been such cases. Would there still be murder charges?