Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*

[CityKid]

Good pick up. Thanks for that.

I went to the podcast to hear that part. For anyone else who is interested, it is at about the 8:42 mark in the podcast episode linked below.

They state that the photo of the dried mushrooms was also shown to Dr May last week. He said the mushrooms in the picture had an appearance consistent with death cap mushrooms. The defence asked him if it was possible that these mushrooms had characteristics that were consistent with other types of mushrooms. He said yes.

Which is smart wording by the defence because it seems to me that all mushrooms have some consistent characteristics.
Hope the jury see past that one.

And this photo was posted by Erin (they think using a tablet, if they recall correctly) two months prior to the poisonings.

"I want nothing to do with them" - Erin’s messages about lunch guests - ABC listen

Facebook messages Erin Patterson sent to friends reveal frustration and anger towards her estranged husband Simon, and two of her lunch guests, Don and Gail Patterson. Kristian Silva and Stephen Stockwell break down more findings from digital forensics officer Shamen Fox Henry, as well as a...

www.abc.net.au

BBM. IMO so many unforced errors by EP. If she hadn't gone the lying route (as her defence admits), and admitting to foraging instead, she could have gone with "I'm only an amateur forager. I went on the mushroom ID website to try to ensure I avoided the areas where death caps had been spotted. I feel absolutely horrified that my mistake has sickened my family."

 

[Two SCents]

As a legal question, if the definite facts of the matter were that she had made a genuine mistake, but then realised what must had happened, and decided not to tell the doctors and so 3 people died, what would be the legal position? I daresay there may have been such cases. Would there still be murder charges?

The Dr's were instructed to start treatment for death cap toxicity 6.30am Monday the 31st. Erin arrived at the hospital at 8.00am Monday the 31st. The cause of the 4 patient's illness was already known and treatment had begun so Erin telling them once she knew would have made no difference.

 

[SouthAussie]

The Dr's were instructed to start treatment for death cap toxicity 6.30am Monday the 31st. Erin arrived at the hospital at 8.00am Monday the 31st. The cause of the 4 patient's illness was already known and treatment had begun so Erin telling them once she knew would have made no difference.

But Erin knew on Sunday that they were all very ill. She told the Child Protection person, Katrina Cripp. I posted the link a bit earlier.

Minutes and hours count in a poisoning. imo


Regarding the conversation on Sunday, Stafford tells Cripps that Patterson “did not tell you that Simon had told her that the others were unwell at that time”.

Cripps replies: You can suggest it but I’m certain.

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Four factory resets of one device, mushroom photos on another and a third containing angry messages about a "gaslighting" and "deadbeat" estranged husband, whose family she wanted nothing to do with.

This was among some of the evidence prosecutors allege had been found on phones, tablets and other devices seized from Erin Patterson's home, her triple murder trial was told on Thursday.

The trial will resume on Friday after an intense day of evidence, where Victoria Police digital forensics officer Shamen Fox-Henry showed the jury his analysis of devices seized from Patterson's home.

These included messages prosecutors allege Patterson sent, under the Facebook username of Erin Erin Erin, to her friends on Messenger about seven months before the fatal lunch.

"This family I swear to *ing god," said one message sent by Erin Erin Erin, on December 6, 2022.

Another message the following day, said "I'm sick of this , I want nothing to do with them".

Mushroom murder trial: Factory reset devices, messages in focus

Erin Patterson, 50, has reached the end of her fourth week on trial before a Supreme Court jury.

www.1news.co.nz

 

[Two SCents]

But Erin knew on Sunday that they were all very ill. She told the Child Protection person, Katrina Cripp. I posted the link a bit earlier.

Minutes and hours count in a poisoning. imo


Regarding the conversation on Sunday, Stafford tells Cripps that Patterson “did not tell you that Simon had told her that the others were unwell at that time”.

Cripps replies: You can suggest it but I’m certain.

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Absolutely minutes and hours count - I was replying to Kemug's legal question and I believe the answer would be dependent on timing of when Erin knew it was the mushrooms which caused the poisoning and resultant deaths.

On the Sunday they all initially believed they had a gastro bug. It wasn't until the hospital started running tests that it was realised they were dealing with something else - a toxic poison.

ETA
Kemug said:
As a legal question, if the definite facts of the matter were that she had made a genuine mistake, but then realised what must had happened, and decided not to tell the doctors and so 3 people died, what would be the legal position? I daresay there may have been such cases. Would there still be murder charges?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

They said Ian was misremembering the conversation about EP having cancer---he misunderstand that she was merely saying she feared she might have cancer.

But but but -- if she was merely *afraid* she might have cancer, then why plan a gathering of family to ask advice about telling the children? Surely one would wait to know for sure before telling the children, no need to frighten them unnecessarily. MOO

 

[Little Jack]

Don and Gail went to the hospital late Saturday night, and were thought to have food poisoning. It took until Tuesday morning 6:50 am to began the antidote process. It was hours later before Ian and Heather received theirs]

If Erin told the truth the antidote could have been given earlier.


On SUNDAY @10:30 pm:

Dr Morgan says she texted the toxicology department, who ordered her to find out more about what was served at lunch.
Dr Morgan says the toxicologist on call told her that if it was a toxin poisoning, it was most likely due to the ingestion of the amanita phalloides (death cap mushroom) toxin
[SO SUN NIGHT 10:30 PM---FIRST REFERENCE TO DEATH CAPS]


MONDAY MORNING:

Hospital refrains from administering antidote

As advised by toxicologists, Don was put onto a range of treatments including N-acetylcysteine (NAC), a liver-protecting drug used in cases of paracetemol overdose.

However, the hospital did not immediately administer silibinin, an antidote to death cap mushrooms.

"At that time we had no evidence that anyone else was unwell, or that anyone else was experiencing the metabolic acidosis," she tells the court.

Due to her symptoms and normal readings on VBG tests, Gail was not given as intensive medical care as Don, with doctors believing her illness to be food poisoning.

In the early hours of the morning, Dr Morgan contacted Leongatha Hospital and asked them to conduct VBG tests on Ian and Heather Wilkinson.

[SO THEY HELD OFF FROM GIVING THE DEATH CAP ANTIDOTE BECAUSE THEY HAD NO PROOF YET IT WAS POISONING FROM DEATH CAPS]----THIS IS 2 DAYS AFTER THE LUNCH]

They had no proof because Erin was still lying and misleading them.


The toxologists were trying hard to verify that the patients ate death caps. They asked Erin if she picked wild mushrooms and she denied it. She kept saying they were store bought. It delayed the process of getting the right antidote to her victims in time.

​

Hours later, when the liver tests results for Don and Gail showed deep declines, they decided to start the antidotes:

At 6.50am the next morning, after conversations with the toxicology department, it was suggested that doctors begin administering the antidote silibinin and the antibiotic rifampicin.

1. Don Patterson had extremely abnormal test readings when admitted to hospital, while Gail initially showed much milder signs of illness. The couple were put on treatments to protect their liver, but medical staff initially held back from administering a special antidote for death cap poisoning due to lack of evidence.

Dying lunch guest's 'extremely abnormal' blood test results raised hospital alarm, court hears — as it happened

Ms Patterson is accused of murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington laced with poisonous death cap mushrooms. Follow the trial in our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

Bringing this forward as the discussion keeps coming up if Erin's dishonesty delayed possibly life saving treatment.

I am reasonably confident that if she had uttered the words "foraged mushrooms" they would immediately have administered the antidote to deathcap poisoning in an abundance of caution regardless of testing.

It would be nice if prosecution had confirmed that with a doctor. But maybe they were afraid it would make it look like they were allowing for the possibility that this wasn't intentional on Erin's part and so didn't want to pursue that line at all.

 

[Little Jack]

I will add that when my friend reported that he'd taken many pills while drunk and it was POSSIBLE they were Tylenol they immediately administered the liver protective medication in an abundance of caution. Because by the time tests would show it was necessary it would be too late.

It turned out it was Tylenol and he still almost died. If they hadn't acted without definitive proof he would likely not have survived. So I do believe that doctors in this case with reasonable assumption that a foraged mushroom could be toxic would not delay treatment pending further testing.

 

[MsMarple]

I know some are thinking that these large loans with no interest indicate that EP was really generous and caring. But I do wonder if there was another element to it as well?

In a weird way, it is also kind of a power move/ a flex? Like look what I've done for you, now you owe me, you are indebted, etc. Maybe it is unfair for me to look at it that way. IDK?

I agree, IMO Erin’s generosity may have come with emotional strings. The loans may also have tax benefits although we don’t know the particulars.

Also interesting is one of her messages that was posted in court the other day mentioned how Don and Gail’s daughter would receive better treatment if she had asked her parents to intervene in marital woes. In part:

5. His parents sent me a message yesterday afternoon and Simon sent me one last night, but I've read neither and I don't think I will. I don't want to hear it. Simon's will just be horrible and be gaslighting and abusive and it will ruin my day and his parents will be more weasel words about not getting involved. So I think I'm going to just move on. I don't need anything from these people. Simon's parents say they don't want to take sides, but by the very actions they have.

[If] Daughter came to them, laying all the same complaints about her husband that I did about Simon. They would never say to her, ‘Oh well, we can't believe you until we hear (his) side’ right now it's your word against his’. No, they would just believe that if their daughter's husband just walked away and refused to support her kids, they would have things to say to him. But by refusing to hold Simon to account, they've made it clear his word means more than mine. So that speaks volumes, even if they claim they haven't taken sides.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It’s not overt but still interesting and maybe telling about Erin feelings of not being accepted by the family as blood, like Simon’s sister. To me it smacks of anger and even a little jealousy.

She and Simon were together about 10+ years so the hurt might be understandable. Still, they were separated and I’m not convinced his parents were eager to become involved in their fights.

And there was some baggage that may have impacted Simon’s parents’ feelings towards Erin, like that vacation where she got mad and left Simon and their baby:

The court in Morwell, regional Victoria, heard that between the couple's marriage in 2007 and separation in 2015, there were a number of periods of separation and reconciliation - including Erin Patterson leaving her husband and their baby son in the middle of a road trip across Australia in 2009.

Mr Patterson had to drive from Townsville to Perth - a distance of about 5,000 km (3,100 miles) - alone with the child, he told the court.

Mushroom trial: 'very rare' for accused to hold gatherings, says husband

Three people died in hospital after being poisoned with death cap mushrooms.

www.bbc.com

As a grandmother I’d be pissed over either one of my grandchild’s parents abandoning their baby and partner in the middle of vacation and maybe Simon’s parents felt similarly.

Anyway, it appears that Erin was harboring some very negative feelings towards her in-laws and maybe they weren’t as enamored of her as we’ve been told.. JMO

 

[Megnut]

Sometimes free money is the most expensive kind.

JMO

 

[Lisa4]

I’m in Australia too and it certainly strikes me as odd - she went to the trouble of making a complex and expensive meal like Beef Wellington, only to serve it on mismatching plates. Very odd.
The fact that Heather noted it is to be considered as she certainly found it odd too.
Anyways as a stand alone fact, it could be easily explained away, with all the other evidence it does paint a clear picture.

That point struck me too. All that effort, invited them two weeks in advance, and yet didn't bother about anything else - the beef wellingtons *alone* were clearly front and centre of her dinner party.

 

[Lisa4]

Here's yet another curious point. She discussed RecipeTinEats with her FB friends. The first cookbook came out in Oct 2022. It has very detailed instructions for Beef Wellington - three pages no less, plus another page of step-by-step photos (and 2 pages of hero shots of the finished product).

However - the recipe is for ONE big, beautiful Beef Wellington to serve 6-8. She was expecting 6 people to attend, including 3 males (more likely to go for second servings).

Why go to all the effort of individual servings then???

Ah - but of course - individual servings allows careful portioning out of "special" dried mushroom powder - well worth the extra trouble then - in a sad, deranged mind.

MOO.

 

[Lisa4]

If you are on a jury, are you supposed to forget the saying "If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck"?

That sums up this whole case IMO.

I can't imagine how I'd fare trying to keep an open mind with this case... I assume that's what is expected. I have never served on a jury.

 

[Lisa4]

Furthermore, IMO not only does this case "quack like a duck etc" , but it lays duck eggs and hatches ducklings.

Might we say it all points very clearly to being a... foul.

 

[SouthAussie]

I will add that when my friend reported that he'd taken many pills while drunk and it was POSSIBLE they were Tylenol they immediately administered the liver protective medication in an abundance of caution. Because by the time tests would show it was necessary it would be too late.

It turned out it was Tylenol and he still almost died. If they hadn't acted without definitive proof he would likely not have survived. So I do believe that doctors in this case with reasonable assumption that a foraged mushroom could be toxic would not delay treatment pending further testing.

Yes, and I think @drsleuth also mentioned - further back in the threads - that if the doctors had known about the foraged mushrooms, giving the patients precautionary treatment for death caps wouldn't have harmed them further.

imo

 

[Kemug]

Sometimes free money is the most expensive kind.

JMO

I am reminded of a rich kid at school "buying" friends by sharing expensive treats.

 

[Neet_Mc]

But but but -- if she was merely *afraid* she might have cancer, then why plan a gathering of family to ask advice about telling the children? Surely one would wait to know for sure before telling the children, no need to frighten them unnecessarily. MOO

Given her attitude towards Simon and his family that she has revealed in message exchange with Facebook friends, inviting any of them over for a lunch (let alone one that required investment of time, money and effort) as well as their advice seems completely ridiculous….and clearly Simon though so because he declined the invite even with potential of meeting being about her health.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

If you are on a jury, are you supposed to forget the saying "If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, then it is a duck"?

That sums up this whole case IMO.

I can't imagine how I'd fare trying to keep an open mind with this case... I assume that's what is expected. I have never served on a jury.

Interestingly, I also used the duck analogy a few pages back.
Quack, quack, quack.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I agree, IMO Erin’s generosity may have come with emotional strings. The loans may also have tax benefits although we don’t know the particulars.

Also interesting is one of her messages that was posted in court the other day mentioned how Don and Gail’s daughter would receive better treatment if she had asked her parents to intervene in marital woes. In part:

5. His parents sent me a message yesterday afternoon and Simon sent me one last night, but I've read neither and I don't think I will. I don't want to hear it. Simon's will just be horrible and be gaslighting and abusive and it will ruin my day and his parents will be more weasel words about not getting involved. So I think I'm going to just move on. I don't need anything from these people. Simon's parents say they don't want to take sides, but by the very actions they have.

[If] Daughter came to them, laying all the same complaints about her husband that I did about Simon. They would never say to her, ‘Oh well, we can't believe you until we hear (his) side’ right now it's your word against his’. No, they would just believe that if their daughter's husband just walked away and refused to support her kids, they would have things to say to him. But by refusing to hold Simon to account, they've made it clear his word means more than mine. So that speaks volumes, even if they claim they haven't taken sides.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It’s not overt but still interesting and maybe telling about Erin feelings of not being accepted by the family as blood, like Simon’s sister. To me it smacks of anger and even a little jealousy.

She and Simon were together about 10+ years so the hurt might be understandable. Still, they were separated and I’m not convinced his parents were eager to become involved in their fights.

And there was some baggage that may have impacted Simon’s parents’ feelings towards Erin, like that vacation where she got mad and left Simon and their baby:

The court in Morwell, regional Victoria, heard that between the couple's marriage in 2007 and separation in 2015, there were a number of periods of separation and reconciliation - including Erin Patterson leaving her husband and their baby son in the middle of a road trip across Australia in 2009.

Mr Patterson had to drive from Townsville to Perth - a distance of about 5,000 km (3,100 miles) - alone with the child, he told the court.

Mushroom trial: 'very rare' for accused to hold gatherings, says husband

Three people died in hospital after being poisoned with death cap mushrooms.

www.bbc.com

As a grandmother I’d be pissed over either one of my grandchild’s parents abandoning their baby and partner in the middle of vacation and maybe Simon’s parents felt similarly.

Anyway, it appears that Erin was harboring some very negative feelings towards her in-laws and maybe they weren’t as enamored of her as we’ve been told.. JMO

Anyone else find it odd that Erin would leave her baby son 5,000km from home, regardless of what was going on with her partner? I can understand maybe taking the child and leaving Simon to find his own way home, or continuing the trip with her son in a different room from Simon, but to just abandon them both, and literally end up at the opposite side of the country from them? What mother does that? For the mothers amongst us, what would you do in a situation like that? I, for one, would not be abandoning my baby for love nor money.

 

[Jess D]

I am reminded of a rich kid at school "buying" friends by sharing expensive treats.

Yes, I remember one kid at my primary school doing that and also at secondary school. Sad.