Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #11 *Arrest*

[Cartie]

One of the things EP said she liked about mushrooms was the healthy benefits so throwing them back up defeats that.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She told the jury she felt confident enough about her research that she began feeding wild mushrooms to her children, cutting them up really small so they couldn't pick them out.

This statement of hers, it comes off as totally abusive and bizarre. To secretly hide a disguised substance inside a meal... erm, sounds like the mindset and actions of a poisoner.

Can she / her defence not see that? This is a terrible thing to say. Why not, for the sake of a reasonable defence, skip that part altogether and stick with defending against the proven facts that suggest EP has murdered several people?

It also comes off as an unlikely story the whole thing, cutting a bit off a mushroom and cooking it in butter and eating it etc. It sounds like the sort of thing a narcissistic, narrative controlling, delusional, word-salad, mind-bending, gas-lighting story teller would come up with.

Whole thing is coming off as indefensible. JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What's scary to me is that Erin comes across as a truly fixated individual. Fixated on perceived slights. Fixated on specific incidents that Simon and his family forgot long ago. Fixated on people like Simon and his family when they don't react the way she wants them to. Fixated on the relationship, even when they're separated. It's terrifying.

I think it's one of the diagnostic criteria of Narcissistic Personality Disorder - holding onto grudges. JMO MOO

 

[Cedars]

I'm starting to see the direction this story is likely heading. She's laying the groundwork by talking about her low self-esteem due to her weight, plans for gastric reduction surgery, and secret bulimia, something she claims no one knew about. That part is probably going to be used to explain why she didn't get as sick as the others because she secretly purged after the meal.

Looks like she will claim she used some of the Tupperware container of dehydrated mushroom mix on the beef Wellingtons, not knowing it contained death cap mushrooms.

But I see some big problems with her story. She threw out the dehydrator and denied ever owning one or foraging for mushrooms when questioned by the police - those actions don’t exactly scream innocence!

She also fed the leftover beef to her kids, claiming she scraped off the mushrooms. But death cap toxins are incredibly potent and can't just be "scraped off, they soak into the food. The kids would have been exposed and incredibly unwell if not worse!

And, if she truly suffers from extreme health anxiety, as she claims, why would she not be in a panic and rush them to the hospital asap? That part makes absolutely no sense to me.

Then there's the issue of her cancer lie. Maybe she’ll try to spin that as the result of health anxiety and self-diagnosis via Google, but it’s a much bigger leap to explain fabricated hospital visits and test results. That's not anxiety that's plain old deliberate deception.

At this point, she's had a couple of years to work on her version of events. It’ll be very interesting to see how she tries to explain away these clear inconsistencies, especially when her story doesn’t match her behavior.

All IMO.

I wonder whether the defense might trying to demonstrate that she was too muddled up to ever do something deliberately harmful, and that also explains her evasions afterwords. She was just such a hot mess of misery, she can't be held responsible for anything...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don’t think it’s the feeling sorry for her - I will say it again, she is extremely privileged - a wealthy heiress with a man that once loved her and two healthy children she’s close to. She just made extremely poor choices well before the lunch.

But are they starting to create reasonable doubt - a crazy mix of foraged and non foraged mushroom and her belief that exotic mushrooms had so much more taste.

Her prelude to bulimia, will she say she made herself throw up after the meal hence never getting really sick?

Will the dumping of the dehydrator, the lies to the police and reset of phones all be blamed on panic?

It is possible her family of origin and childhood was dysfunctional and painful.
It is possible her marriage was dysfunctional and painful.
Privilege doesn't remove these possibilities, it just means everyone has more money and scope.

However, nobody should ever murder a whole bunch of people no matter what on earth struggles they have.

Is it possible EP is highly intelligent academically but emotionally disregulated? Looks that way.
Is it possible EP is volatile, moody, passive aggressive? Looks that way to me.
Is it possible EP is obsessed with food / controlling food and 'feeding others' in the way that many anorectics and bulimics are? Maybe IMO, highly likely now we've heard it.
Is it possible EP is passive aggressive, covertly vengeful, and has the hallmarks of a poisoner? I think so!

Also, we know EP is probably knowledgeable about mushrooms to know that when her relatives became severely sick, they weren't just a bit poorly, they were certainly going to die. That's why her cover up began immediately IMO. I think it's probable she didn't expect that, she may have used tiny quantities of DC mushroom and assumed they'd get strange ailments over time but she must have known when the severe symptoms set in, they were goners. JMO MOO

 

[MsMarple]

If I’m following the lies correctly, the current one is that she was storing the stinky dried “Asian grocery” mushrooms in a Tupperware container with a mixture of mushrooms she had previously foraged and dehydrated.
It was from this mix of dried mushrooms, plus the fresh Woolworths mushrooms, that the beef Wellingtons were made.

It does seem odd that a mushroom connoisseur would just throw all different types and flavors of mushrooms into one container….but I don’t believe a word she says….as far as I can tell she is now just trying to make some lies fit together.

It reminds me of the Oscar Pistorius trial where the prosecution accused him of constantly tailoring his testimony to fit the evidence.

 

[MsMarple]

"Erin says she recalls some oak trees at Korumburra Botanical Gardens and she believes she foraged mushrooms "near to" those trees."

So now she is admitting foraging mushrooms NEAR some Oak trees? Wouldn't she know not to pick 'shrooms near Oaks?

Even I know not to touch mushrooms that are growing near Oak trees and I have never foraged.

What a crock! She knows so much about mushrooms but oops! didn’t know to avoid foraging around oak trees? Not buying it; there’s plenty of evidence that she spent time on iNaturalist reading posts about death caps. And who knows how many searches on that reset phone?

She’s a liar, has an answer for everything no matter how far fetched or ridiculous.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It reminds me of the Oscar Pistorius trial where the prosecution accused him of constantly tailoring his testimony to fit the evidence.

Yes we saw that also with Sarah Boone in the USA - demanding that what evidence was known in order to craft a narrative and retro-fitting her account of events to proof as it emerged.

It's a sign of guilt all by itself it seems. JMO MOO

 

[ch_13]

Nothing wrong with a thirst for knowledge.

Nothing I've heard about Erin makes me think she had a real thirst for knowledge and that's why she wanted to pursue yet another degree, this time in nursing.

She strikes me as someone who—for whatever reason—could never find her path in life. How many previous jobs has she held? RSPCA admin, air traffic controller, bookshop owner, newsletter publisher, math teacher trainee, etc. I'm sure I'm missing a couple as well. Each of these seems to last a year or so. I don't know if it's tied to an emotional disorder, or she can't get along with her bosses, or whatever, but it seems that when the novelty wears off, she flits off to something else.

I know a couple of people like this in real life. Like Erin, they are fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be in situations where they don't need to work. They have romantic ideas of what a job is like, but once they have to face the actual drudgery of day-to-day working life, they quickly find an excuse to bail.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Nothing I've heard about Erin makes me think she had a real thirst for knowledge and that's why she wanted to pursue yet another degree, this time in nursing.

She strikes me as someone who—for whatever reason—could never find her path in life. How many previous jobs has she held? RSPCA admin, air traffic controller, bookshop owner, newsletter publisher, math teacher trainee, etc. I'm sure I'm missing a couple as well. Each of these seems to last a year or so. I don't know if it's tied to an emotional disorder, or she can't get along with her bosses, or whatever, but it seems that when the novelty wears off, she flits off to something else.

Some people would defined her as a 'polymath'.

Nothing wrong with lifelong learning in diverse areas unless she's costing others somehow or it causes a problem in and of itself.

If anything negative, it could be a symptom of a workaholic or an over-active compulsive mind that can't sit still and find ease and relaxation. We'd have to know more about her to know if that's the case.

It could be a pattern. That she enjoys studying, finds it rewarding, suits her personality and academic skills, takes up a new subject intensively, then after some time moves on to the next. Studying hard can be so firmly rewarded in childhood and young adulthood that it sits inside a comfort zone and helps a person feel worthy or of value. JMO

 

[ch_13]

I've been trying to keep an open mind from the get-go, but it's become increasingly difficult.
In regards to the Asian Grocery store, I was trying to put myself in Erin's shoes, because I once bought a Sari for a party in a heavily Indian populated shopping strip in Western Sydney. I went to many Indian shops where they sold Saris until I found the one I wanted. I could remember vaguely where it was (I'm terrible with directions/geography), but because I am not familiar with the area I just couldn't remember where to tell a friend where I got it from weeks after the event. I told her the general street area I thought it was from, but I also couldn't remember the name of the particular shop because I think it was an Indian name which I couldn't read.

So I considered this for a moment when thinking about this "Asian store" tale. And I just couldn't get it across the line, because Erin GREW UP in the Glen Waverly area. Surely there were only a couple of places she could have gone to buy them that she was familiar with. Surely she could have narrowed it down to 2 or 3 places. Surely she could have remembered vaguely the streets she purchased them in. But no, she couldn't. No she didn't tell police roughly where it could have been.

Completely Unbelievable.

(Edit: This was before we all had mobiles, GPS and internet banking apps!)

I have similar stories. I used to live in New York, and the Chinatown in Manhattan is a warren of side streets filled with small shops and restaurants that can be hard to navigate.

I've bought items there, and could never name the shop where I purchased them at. But, give me 15 minutes and I could wander around the general vicinity and find it. Even years later, I have memories of the location, the shop layout, etc. E.g., It was in one of the side streets off Canal, down a flight of stairs, with a fish counter in the front and steel shelves lining the aisles. The hot sauces are in the back left corner...

Or, of course you could simply check my credit card statement and see exactly where I bought the items.

 

[ch_13]

Some people would defined her as a 'polymath'.

With all due respect, she is not a polymath.

Definition from Wikipedia...

an individual whose knowledge spans many different subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems.

Leonardo da Vinci or Benjamin Franklin were polymaths. They were amongst the foremost thinkers of their time and their myriad accomplishments across multiple fields are remembered to this day.

Erin can't even hold a job. What has she ever done in her life that qualifies her to be in that company?

 

[Megnut]

I think what is bothersome about Erin's "lifelong learning" is the load of excuses to explain her failure to advance. Simon's fault, sick child's fault, squirrel. I don't disparage anyone who is a perpetual learner. I just can't handle perpetual liars and blame layers.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Yes we saw that also with Sarah Boone in the USA - demanding that what evidence was known in order to craft a narrative and retro-fitting her account of events to proof as it emerged.

It's a sign of guilt all by itself it seems. JMO MOO

Even brought in the oak tree. The story has all the words. It just makes no sense.

JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

With all due respect, she is not a polymath.

Definition from Wikipedia...

an individual whose knowledge spans many different subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems.

Leonardo da Vinci or Benjamin Franklin were polymaths. They were amongst the foremost thinkers of their time and their myriad accomplishments across multiple fields are remembered to this day.

Erin can't even hold a job. What has she ever done in her life that qualifies her to be in that company?

I could be wrong and am in no way trying to big her up but she does seem to have qualified in various subjects, worked in a variety of fairly interesting or high flying areas and be academically sound. It's not in question that she's been a high performer and people found her clever.

I don't know if some of the greatest thinkers of our time were ever known for being a) good employees; or b) mentally stable; c) not criminally minded;

I'm not sure being a good stable employee has ever been the definition of an active creative or enquiring academic mind.

I would hazard a guess that it's more a case she had capacity to put her thinking in the wrong direction and / or it has fuelled a certain amount of arrogance or superiority plus it's maybe not backed up by emotional intelligence. Maybe it even is?

I'm waiting to find out she's been in active alcoholism as that's one of my suspicions JMO MOO

 

[tillytatler]

Omg. Her way to test mushroom toxicity was to taste them?! Eat half of one to see if it's poisonous???? Who does that???

Jmo

This is actually the standard route in foraging communities when you are dealing with a mushroom that is new to you. You get as sure of its ID as you possibly can, then if you're certain enough, you fry up a tiny bit in butter, eat it, and wait a number of hours before eating the rest. After all you are never going to be able to do DNA testing at home.

She is clearly aware of this accepted best practice here, which makes it even less likely imo that the deathcaps were accidental - as if she knew she was dealing with a mushroom that was new to her (and death caps don't really have any TASTY edible lookalikes IN THAT REGION, as we've seen, so it's unlikely she thought it was another specific mushroom), she would have run the test in advance (and would have got very ill!)

 

[Cedars]

This is actually the standard route in foraging communities when you are dealing with a mushroom that is new to you. You get as sure of its ID as you possibly can, then if you're certain enough, you fry up a tiny bit in butter, eat it, and wait a number of hours before eating the rest. After all you are never going to be able to do DNA testing at home.

She is clearly aware of this accepted best practice here, which makes it even less likely imo that the deathcaps were accidental - as if she knew she was dealing with a mushroom that was new to her (and death caps don't really have any TASTY edible lookalikes IN THAT REGION, as we've seen, so it's unlikely she thought it was another specific mushroom), she would have run the test in advance (and would have got very ill!)

Also, what's the likelihood of a cook who loves mushrooms, to not taste the beef wellington mushroom mixture after it's been sauted?

 

[southgoldengirl]

But she says she didn’t use any of her foraged mushrooms in the BW.
According to her, she used button mushrooms from Woolworths & some dried ones from the Asian Grocer - so she’s blaming the Asian Grocer ( who’s whereabouts she can’t divulge, although she often buys dried mushrooms from the / an Asian grocer down there ) for having DC in their mix. .. thank goodness EP got that packet, as someone else not as well versed in mushroom identification could have become very ill from eating them - perhaps even die.

She's blaming the Asian grocer I agree. I think she's trying to confuse the jury to create reasonable doubt. It's sure confusing me, I can't keep up with her lies!!!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She's blaming the Asian grocer I agree. I think she's trying to confuse the jury to create reasonable doubt. It's sure confusing me, I can't keep up with her lies!!!

I think she's using a scatter-gun technique, incorporating every excuse.
I would doubt her lawyers have encouraged this and did not support her to take the stand.
Maybe she said don't worry I'll explain it to the judge and jury and they didn't have much choice?

I'm particularly looking forward to the prosecution questions / cross. Especially any explanation of why she lied about ovarian cancer and imagined it could relate to a lump in her elbow.
Also as to how she is explaining the DC mushrooms if she's saying she didn't use foraged mushrooms in the BW. Is she really going to 'go there' with the asian supermarket theory!?

 

[tillytatler]

What's been implied by her testimony today, I think what they are trying to suggest is:

- she did a lot of foraging as a matter of course.

- she did a lot of dehydrating mushrooms as a matter of course.

- at some point she did pick mushrooms from near an oak tree and these were dehydrated and stored.

- she was in the habit of storing her wild dehydrated mushrooms in a tupperware box and then sprinkling them into things; that box (multiple boxes) would contain a mix of different dehydrated wild mushrooms gathered previously at a range of times.

- for the meal her intention was to use fresh mushrooms from woollies and dried mushrooms from an Asian store. And that this is also what she believed she had done.

- when she purchased the dried asian mushrooms they were smelly so she stored them in a tupperware.

- implication is that she used the fresh mushrooms from woollies as planned, went to grab the dried shop bought ones from the tupperware, confused it with one of her many other tupperwares full of dried mushrooms (or perhaps had stored them all together), inadvertently introduced death caps accidentally foraged at a previous date into the meal unbeknownst to her.

- she then vomits up her meal AND/OR as she is adding dried mushrooms randomly from multiple tuppers, she just happens not to get dosed.

Does it do enough of a job at introducing reasonable doubt? It actually does a pretty good job, imo. After that you are left with explaining her behaviour in the wake of the dinner, which is largely circumstantial actions or could be attributed to guilt.

Do i personally buy it? On balance, I don't. But it's good enough to give me pause, and that's all the defense needs.