Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #12 *Arrest*

[MaxDecimus13]

This confused me too. I’m not sure if she is saying “I still believe he is not a decent person” or “still believes that he is a decent person”

I initially read it that she still believes he isn't a decent person, but now I'm really not sure.

In fact it probably reads that he is decent, which is weird considering everything she's claimed about him.

 

[mamamama9873]

When the trial started, this was the key evidence to me and I don't feel it was adequately addressed. I had some key questions about whether the cooked beef would be infused with the toxins, or whether it was possible to only get as ill as Erin did. For me, this was the absolute key factor in determining her guilt. If it was possible, then she was likely just lucky/unlucky, the reality being if she had been one of the 3 who had died we wouldn't know about the case nearly as well.

This is why I was surprised she took the stand. Instead of vague notions of guilt that they hadn't proved, we now have Erin's accounts to decide if we find them credible and often we don't. Take explanations like the bulimia, the not realising she'd used foraged mushrooms, the pooing by the side of the road, the admittance that she was making up the cancer to get them to help with childcare etc These have made me less likely to believe her, because she is clearly editing her version to make it look better which raises doubt about the whole thing.

The mad thing is, I still think there's a chance she's innocent but has handled it in such a way that there's a real chance she'll go down.

I agree, that’s why I also think the whole case hangs on - whether it can be accepted that she did not get sick from the lunch as opposed to her lunch guests who died or came very close to it!!

Is bulimia and throwing up a reasonable explanation or is it a convenient story that came to Erin’s mind quite late. Same as the alleged road side poo stop which seems to have now been brought up to fit with the evidence presented (and opposes what her son had stated).

I am trying to keep an open mind but whichever way I twist it, I don’t believe in her innocence based on the evidence that has been presented.

 

[CuriousDetective]

I initially read it that she still believes he isn't a decent person, but now I'm really not sure.

In fact it probably reads that he is decent, which is weird considering everything she's claimed about him.

That’s how I think I am reading it too. Mainly because of what she states before the confusing part:

Dr Rogers puts to her that how she truly felt about Simon Patterson was how she expressed it to Facebook friends.

"Incorrect," Erin says.

 

[Jake18]

The conversation on this thread has made it clear that the prosecution did not do a good job clarifying how many mushrooms would be needed to poison the guests, how much would be deadly, how quickly it would be deadly, etc

I suspect there are too many variables for anyone to know.

It’s a rare form of poisoning, there won’t be enough information about dose and effects of co-morbid illnesses or age or weight. It’s not like a clinical drug trial where all of this information is collected to determine safety profile. No one is going to ingest a tiny bit of death caps on purpose to see what happens. Ethics would never approve it!

It’s probably just safer for the prosecution to say : but she should have been much sicker than she was.

The hospital toxicology doctor worked out it could be death cap mushrooms form the illness course - gastro symptoms to start with then increasing signs of liver damage and cell death. I feel like the medical testimony about the 4 guests outlined the progression course quite well.

It’s thanks to that toxicology doctor that EP is even on trial. He was the one who realised the clinical course could be consistent with Death Cap poisoning. Without him, there would have been 3, nearly 4, mysterious deaths, No meat-based pathogens were identified, no one would have known why they were so sick and died.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

'Two faces': Online posts show mushroom cook's duality, say prosecution​

'Two faces': Online posts show mushroom cook's duality, say prosecution

Prosecutors will continue questioning mushroom cook Erin Patterson as she returns for a fifth day in the wi...

www.9news.com.au

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I agree, that’s why I also think the whole case hangs on - whether it can be accepted that she did not get sick from the lunch as opposed to her lunch guests who died or came very close to it!!

Is bulimia and throwing up a reasonable explanation or is it a convenient story that came to Erin’s mind quite late. Same as the alleged road side poo stop which seems to have now been brought up to fit with the evidence presented (and opposes what her son had stated).

I am trying to keep an open mind but whichever way I twist it, I don’t believe in her innocence based on the evidence that has been presented.

That's how I read it, she has twisted the facts to make it seem like a plausible story but has actually made more problems for herself.

There are a couple of key reasons that point to a possible innocence. First a real lack of motive for murder and second her actions after the fact pointing to a panicked cover up rather than a planned murder.

However, in trying to make herself look better, she has inserted more doubt into her story and increased the possibility of guilt.

For instance, I think it's extremely likely that she knew she was including foraged mushrooms in the meal. Not only did she lie about this at the time for whatever reason, she has now concocted an unlikely version where she didn't realise until days later that she might have included them. This is an obvious attempt to account for her initial lies at the time.

This is hard to believe IMO, and simply increases the question of foul play. If she'd simply owned up to having included them and not knowing what they were, it would ironically be better for her.

 

[MissTilly]

while binge eating is symptomatic of bulima, it is also often present in borderline personality disorder along with:

• fear of abandonment
• chaotic love/hate personal relationships
• distorted self-image
• emotional and anger dysregulation

just saying
moo - not a psychologist

 

[dothetime]

Of course it's a big price to pay in a way but taking the stand herself was the only chance she has/ had to be found not guilty.

I do agree that even if she is found to be not guilty, she would have a very hard time fitting back into society and will likely have to move far away to reestablish herself.

I think she's still secretly an atheist, but it would go down better in court if she says that she's a Christian...

I wonder if she was ever actually baptised as this is an essential part of being a Christian . . . ? If SP is baptised and EP is not, perhaps theirs is not a true Christian marriage, only in Australian law?

 

[CuriousDetective]

while binge eating is symptomatic of bulima, it is also often present in borderline personality disorder along with:

• fear of abandonment
• chaotic love/hate personal relationships
• distorted self-image
• emotional and anger dysregulation

just saying
moo - not a psychologist

Very good point. This is true. Same with purging. And dietary restriction. In BPD they often present as either forms of self-harm, or displays of emotional dysregulation (or both). They can also be used to try to prevent abandonment. Bulimia nervosa and BPD are common co-morbid diagnoses too.

I am a psychologist. There is data supporting this. I would have to find it to link it though.

 

[katydid23]

Not so far, I am hoping they will!

I feel the case will come down to this particular fact of why she wasn't sick and if it can be accepted that throwing up would negate the effects of the poison.

I think if a simple act of vomiting after eating death caps could mean you do not experience any illness, that would be one of the important recommendations.

Erin would not have been able to throw up for a few or several hours, as she ate around 1pm, they talked awhile, served dessert and then the kids arrived home and sat and talked together, and then later, she said she ate several servings of orange cake and THEN she felt stuffed and brought it back up/

By that time, the toxins were already in her blood stream and her gastro-intestinal tract and soon the liver.


Q: does vomiting immediately after ingesting death caps prevent illness?

While vomiting can expel some stomach contents,
it's highly unlikely to prevent severe illness from death cap mushroom poisoning.
Here's why:

• Delayed Symptom Onset: Symptoms like nausea and vomiting usually don't begin until 6 to 24 hours after ingestion, which is too late to effectively remove the absorbed amatoxins.
• Rapid Absorption: Amatoxins are quickly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and transported to the liver, where they begin causing damage, even if you vomit soon after eating the mushroom.
• Persistent Damage: Even if you vomit, the toxins already absorbed continue to harm your liver and other organs.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I think if a simple act of vomiting after eating death caps could mean you do not experience any illness, that would be one of the important recommendations.

Erin would not have been able to throw up for at least a couple of hours, as she ate around 1pm, they talked awhile, served dessert and then the kids arrived home and sat and talked together, and then later, she said she ate several servings of orange cake and THEN she felt stuffed and brought it back up/

By that time, the toxins were already in her blood stream and her gastro-intestinal tract and soon the liver.


Q: does vomiting immediately after ingesting death caps prevent illness?

While vomiting can expel some stomach contents,
it's highly unlikely to prevent severe illness from death cap mushroom poisoning.
Here's why:

• Delayed Symptom Onset: Symptoms like nausea and vomiting usually don't begin until 6 to 24 hours after ingestion, which is too late to effectively remove the absorbed amatoxins.
• Rapid Absorption: Amatoxins are quickly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and transported to the liver, where they begin causing damage, even if you vomit soon after eating the mushroom.
• Persistent Damage: Even if you vomit, the toxins already absorbed continue to harm your liver and other organs.

I was reading around this last night, it is pretty clear that the vomiting would have only helped her in a very small way.

 

[CuriousDetective]

I wonder if she was ever actually baptised as this is an essential part of being a Christian . . . ? If SP is baptised and EP is not, perhaps theirs is not a true Christian marriage, only in Australian law?

This is interesting. I myself am a Christian. I think this would depend upon one’s personal beliefs within their Faith. One can be a Christian without being baptised (people interpret scripture around this individually though). I think I did read somewhere on here that she had been baptised though? Not sure.

 

[mamamama9873]

Simon absolutely could be a bit of a right one, he could be coercive and abusive for all we know.

However, all we have is Erin's word on this and the knowledge that his relationship with his son wasn't great.

His character has basically been assassinated with no right to reply. There are two sides to every story, and I've known plenty of examples where somebody has had a warped view of who was the problem in a relationship.

I wonder how he must be feeling in all this.

If you look at the communication between Erin and himself that has been presented, I always found it nothing short of patient, kind and softly worded.

As for not getting on with the son, the son is a teenager. They often have conflict with their parents; in particular the one of the same sex. I could also see that religion could be a point of conflict; Simon is very religious and a teenager might not be keen on bible study and the like. This is all pure speculation and not basing this on actual evidence just what we know about the circumstances.

But regardless even if Simon was coercive, it would give zero excuse to (allegedly) poison him or his family.

 

[brisbanemum]

while binge eating is symptomatic of bulima, it is also often present in borderline personality disorder along with:

• fear of abandonment
• chaotic love/hate personal relationships
• distorted self-image
• emotional and anger dysregulation

just saying
moo - not a psychologist

Yes! “The stare” is a BPD thing too. She has been reported as ‘staring intently’ at the prosecutor in the trial coverage a few times now.

I wonder if the whole thing was just a big BPD episode triggered by Simon putting himself as separated on the tax return and Gail and Don distancing themselves. That would certainly trigger the intense fear of abandonment that BPD is known for. All MOO.

 

[mamamama9873]

I was reading around this last night, it is pretty clear that the vomiting would have only helped her in a very small way.

Unless this is clarified as part of the trial and presented as evidence, the jury cannot assume this and her stating that she vomited might give some jurors reasonable doubt IMO

 

[JBowie]

Garbage disposals never became popular in Australia.
I actually have never known anyone who has one.

Horrible noisy smelly things. I removed the one that was already installed in my house when I bought it.

 

[CuriousDetective]

Yes! “The stare” is a BPD thing too. She has been reported as ‘staring intently’ at the prosecutor in the trial coverage a few times now.

I wonder if the whole thing was just a big BPD episode triggered by Simon putting himself as separated on the tax return and Gail and Don distancing themselves. That would certainly trigger the intense fear of abandonment that BPD is known for. All MOO.

I think you are onto something here. The stare can also be a narcissistic PD thing too.

No diagnosing, just IMO, but I’m thinking BPD, NPD and BN are possibly a big part of how this played out .

 

[juliajjj]

I don't believe the vomiting. Why didn't she tell any of the doctors she threw up the lunch? She only told them she had diarrhea. She didn't have to tell them she had an eating disorder, as a former bulimic myself, one of the advantages is you can get away with it at first - she just had to say she felt sick and threw up.

If she hated hospitals so much and wanted to leave it would have been a good thing to say.

 

[mamamama9873]

I don't believe the vomiting. Why didn't she tell any of the doctors she threw up the lunch? She only told them she had diarrhea. She didn't have to tell them she had an eating disorder, as a former bulimic myself, one of the advantages is you can get away with it at first - she just had to say she felt sick and threw up.

If she hated hospitals so much and wanted to leave it would have been a good thing to say.

I’m with you. Why does she only think of mentioning this almost 2 years after the lunch. It didn’t seem like she felt shame with the nurse when she pointed out her wee had stool matter in it..
It sure does point to the vomiting being an afterthought and a convenient story to tell..

 

[Deleted member 363451]

When the trial started, this was the key evidence to me and I don't feel it was adequately addressed. I had some key questions about whether the cooked beef would be infused with the toxins, or whether it was possible to only get as ill as Erin did. For me, this was the absolute key factor in determining her guilt. If it was possible, then she was likely just lucky/unlucky, the reality being if she had been one of the 3 who had died we wouldn't know about the case nearly as well.

This is why I was surprised she took the stand. Instead of vague notions of guilt that they hadn't proved, we now have Erin's accounts to decide if we find them credible and often we don't. Take explanations like the bulimia, the not realising she'd used foraged mushrooms, the pooing by the side of the road, the admittance that she was making up the cancer to get them to help with childcare etc These have made me less likely to believe her, because she is clearly editing her version to make it look better which raises doubt about the whole thing.

The mad thing is, I still think there's a chance she's innocent but has handled it in such a way that there's a real chance she'll go down.

Wow.