Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #12 *Arrest*

[CityKid]

It would be interesting to know if the one whole beef Wellington and the other partly eaten portion were analyzed separately.
I wonder if it could be determined if one piece (Simon’s) contained toxins and the other (Erin’s) didn’t?
I suppose the liquids/juices had probably leeched into both portions by the time they were retrieved from the bin anyway so it is probably moot.

Since she made pasty-type individual servings, IMO her portion contained no mushrooms.

 

[CityKid]

Yes, and the sixth commandment is "Thou Shalt not kill."

Sounds like she sees the Ten Commandments as a to-do list.

 

[Megnut]

IMO she told how it happened.

She bought short cut ingredients.

She skipped 50% of the ingredients and 75% of the effort.

While making the duxelle, she taste tested it until she was satisfied. And made her individual BW.

Then, just like she said, she added from her Pandora's magic mushroom box. No more worries about how it tasted.

Cooked hers up good, set it aside.

Continued on, making up the rest.

JMO

 

[Montrealaise]

My memory is fallible. Wow.

Key Event
1m ago
Erin says Katrina Cripps is wrong for a second time

By Joseph Dunstan and Judd Boaz

Dr Rogers then moves to evidence from child protection worker Katrina Cripps, who said that after the lunch, Erin had told her she'd had a good relationship with her in-laws "until recently".

Ms Cripps told the court that Erin recounted to her feeling isolated since the relationship with Simon had deteriorated.

"I did become concerned about that, yes" Ms Patterson says.

"Did you tell Ms Cripps that you were not invited to the family events that you would normally attend?" Dr Rogers asks.

Ms Patterson says she thinks she would have phrased it more along the lines of being concerned she was not being invited to events.

"There was only one that I know I wasn't invited to," Erin says.

She says she had thought there was another event "but I was wrong about that".

Erin wants to clarify that it's possible she said what Ms Cripps had remembered her saying.

"My memory is also fallible. So I don't remember saying that so I think that she's wrong," Erin says.

Dr Rogers asks Erin if Ms Cripps was wrong, and after a pause Erin says yes.

Yesterday, Erin also told the court that parts of Ms Cripps' testimony was incorrect.

So Erin is, directly or indirectly, accusing several Crown witnesses of lying. The sole survivor of her deadly lunch, a child protection worker - what possible motive could they have for lying? Erin, on the other hand....

 

[CityKid]

I mean, the native Australian Drop Bear has been known to forage bins that are left out under trees...

As a non-Aussie who immediately googled this, thanks for the laugh!

 

[Montrealaise]

1m ago03.17 BST

Patterson didn't share realisation foraged mushrooms may have been in meal​

Rogers takes Patterson to a discussion she and Simon had on 1 August 2023 while at Monash hospital. Patterson said Simon asked her if she had used a dehydrator to poison his parents.

Patterson told the court earlier this week this conversation caused her to reflect on “what might have happened”.

Patterson agrees on this date she realised foraged mushrooms may have been in a Tupperware container storing store-bought mushrooms and used in the beef wellingtons.

Rogers says she never told a medical professional or anyone else that foraged mushrooms may have been used in the meal. Patterson agrees.

Rogers says Patterson’s realisation on 1 August 2023 was days before anyone had died.

Patterson agrees she did not tell anyone about her realisation after this date.

Rogers says after her realisation, Patterson disposed of the dehydrator. Patterson agrees.

So she admits she didn't tell anyone that the meal which made her in-laws violently ill may have contained foraged mushrooms?- And then she disposed of the dehydrator which contained the mushrooms in a site far from her home?

She says that she is afraid she would be blamed for their illness - if she had simply made a mistake, as the defense claims, she would not be facing criminal charges. Even experienced foragers make mistakes: as the expert witnesses have pointed out, the death caps look like other, harmless mushrooms. If she had told the doctors about the possibility of foraged mushrooms, they would have started the appropriate treatment earlier and could have saved lives.

 

[CityKid]

US

US, have never heard of them illegal anywhere and truly rare to be in a home without one. I have expensive city water but the usage for disposals is minimal

U.S. in NYC, they're very rare although they were made legal in 1997. I live in a century-old high-rise and we don't have them. Narrow old pipes increase the chance of clogging.

 

[Montrealaise]

It would be interesting to know if the one whole beef Wellington and the other partly eaten portion were analyzed separately.
I wonder if it could be determined if one piece (Simon’s) contained toxins and the other (Erin’s) didn’t?
I suppose the liquids/juices had probably leeched into both portions by the time they were retrieved from the bin anyway so it is probably moot.

There was no whole beef Wellington (which is how the dish is usually prepared - check out Gordon Ramsay's recipe). Instead, she made individual mini Wellingtons - so much easier, that way, to make sure the portions aren't identical and no liquid leeches from one to another.

 

[Cedars]

So she admits she didn't tell anyone that the meal which made her in-laws violently ill may have contained foraged mushrooms?- And then she disposed of the dehydrator which contained the mushrooms in a site far from her home?

She says that she is afraid she would be blamed for their illness - if she had simply made a mistake, as the defense claims, she would not be facing criminal charges. Even experienced foragers make mistakes: as the expert witnesses have pointed out, the death caps look like other, harmless mushrooms. If she had told the doctors about the possibility of foraged mushrooms, they would have started the appropriate treatment earlier and could have saved lives.

Also, innocent people would become terrified for their own heath and their children's. Googling shows dc poisoning symptoms can abate after 24 hours but the organs are deteriorating and will soon start to fail.

 

[Cedars]

IMO it's like toddlers. "Did you take the cookie?" "No." (Secretly thinking, "I ATE the cookie so I'm not lying.")

I'm not sure that toddlers even recognize that they're lying, it's pure self protection at that age...it's only when their parents point out that they lied and discuss it.that they start to see their own behaviour from an objective point of view.

Still, I think the analogy to this case applies - someone can be smart but emotionally regress to childhood.under stress. It seems to me, an example in the US was Leticia Stauch. She was quickly suspected by everyone but just stubbornly deny, deny.

IMO Erin's behaviour indicates she'd planned it but didn't think very carefully through what might happen beyond the meal. I think she fantasized about this secret way to get back at people, but had no imagination to realize how it would look to outsiders.

 

[Montrealaise]

Erin clearly forgot she admitted to the mushrooms being involved. She admitted she didn’t mention them because she was afraid, but now every prosecution witness is lying. She has never accepted responsibility or said she wished she were more truthful with the doctors….one she apparently has forgotten speaking with. Her attorney must be banging his head on the table. I believe Erin has used lies her entire life. IMO

She has two attorneys representing her, a man and a woman. I saw a photograph of them arriving at the courthouse this morning - let's just say they don't look happy. At all.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

U.S. in NYC, they're very rare although they were made legal in 1997. I live in a century-old high-rise and we don't have them. Narrow old pipes increase the chance of clogging.

The story back in the day, is that trash disposers were banned in NYC because organised crime had a rubbish haulage (carting they called it) cartel. The mafia “influenced” the policy to ban disposals to increase amount of trash they could get paid to cart. Mafia controlled private haulage & carting. Nothing to do with drains.

 

[katydid23]

It was the leftover BW.
Tissue only from regular supermarket mushrooms was identified. But toxins of Deathcap was later detected by the toxicologist. It's likely that the Deathcaps were powdered, the tissue would then not be visible by microscope.

About the Death Caps being powdered--- I wonder if that made it impervious to someone trying to slow the poison down by vomiting.

If it was in mushroom form, then maybe throwing up the mushroom would help somewhat if you threw up very quickly. But if the toxins were in powdered form, I'd think it would be much quicker for it to be absorbed into blood stream and digestive track.

 

[Spectrix]

About the Death Caps being powdered--- I wonder if that made it impervious to someone trying to slow the poison down by vomiting.

If it was in mushroom form, then maybe throwing up the mushroom would help somewhat if you threw up very quickly. But if the toxins were in powdered form, I'd think it would be much quicker for it to be absorbed into blood stream and digestive track.

That's a good point. Erin is implying that her bulimic self waited until the guests had left, ate three quarters of a cake, and then threw everything (including the half BW she reported eating) back up.
I'm certain that if her BW contained powdered deathcaps, those toxins would have been readily absorbed in that timeframe, and she would have shown signs of liver damage just like Gail did.

Of course, I don't think she threw up at all. Not even once. If she had, she would have happily reported that along with the terrible diarrhoea that she clearly didn't have.

 

[MsMarple]

The conversation on this thread has made it clear that the prosecution did not do a good job clarifying how many mushrooms would be needed to poison the guests, how much would be deadly, how quickly it would be deadly, etc

I found testimony from a toxicologist who stated

Victoria's chief toxicologist Dimitri Gerostamoulos returned to the witness box on Friday for his second day of testimony, being questioned by the defence's Colin Mandy SC.

The defence questioned Dr Gerostamoulos about all the factors that led to illness from death cap mushrooms, reiterating to the court that medical knowledge was based on animal studies.

"There are lots of variables that needed to be considered for that lethal dose," Dr Gerostamoulos said, including the age and health of the subject.

He said a lethal dose was considered to be 0.1 mg per kg of body weight.

Toxicologist explains deadliness of death cap mushrooms to murder trial

Defence lawyers for accused killer Erin Patterson have suggested a person could survive death cap mushroom poisoning, even after eating the same meal as someone who fell seriously ill.

www.abc.net.au

That particular dosage was also cited here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/amanita-phalloides

So essentially a person could become seriously ill or die after eating a single death cap. Unfortunately it gets complicated here because we don’t know how many dried death caps were added to the duxelles plus we have to consider any juices that leaked into the meat and the phyllo leaves, maybe into the puff pastry as well.

At 0.10mg/111kg Erin should have been pretty ill even after purging some time later (she only said that evening) somewhere between approximately 3 and 5 hours maybe.

And the kids should have shown some symptoms, maybe mild ones like a tummy ache. Of course this is all supposition as none of us are toxicologists or mycologists. And Dr. G pointed out the variables that could affect a person.

Also, I think another dosage was cited by… Dr. May? That testimony was posted here but it’s not easily found. Maybe someone has the link?

I wonder if the prosecution will bring up more about this? I’d be surprised but who knows?

We still have the mystery of the missing plates and where did the leftovers meal come from if the accused only made 6 beef Wellingtons and threw one whole one away. Maybe these things aren’t all that important so the prosecution may be heading to a totally different narrative.

Edit: I changed the time range where Erin threw up the cake because I forgot that while the guests left around 3:30 the lunch was eaten earlier, maybe around 12 to 2.

 

[MsMarple]

EXACTLY. Her beautiful Labrador would have loved those beef scraps.

I've had many dogs over the years, and whenever I made a beef casserole or beef dish that would be cooking through out the day, my dogs would be camped out near the kitchen, staring at us intently, hoping for a taste.

I doubt she usually tossed out beef scraps instead of giving them to her lab. IMO

We’d probably hear that the dog was diabetic or something and on a strict diet. The accused finds an answer for everything.

 

[Jake18]

IMO it was frankly bizarre to do a visual check for poison when lab testing can check for actual poison. What was that about? I am not a detective or poison expert but all the same!

I thought this at the time, but after EP’s testimony it catches her in another lie. Visually, the leftovers only contained chopped button mushrooms, but in testimony EP says that she rehydrated the mushrooms from the so-called Asian market and chopped them up and put them in as well. Because the ones from the supermarket are “bland”.

It’s that’s the case - why weren’t these additional chopped up mushroom types detected visually?

 

[Spectrix]

We’d probably hear that the dog was diabetic or something and on a strict diet. The accused finds an answer for everything.

The poor dog also had body image issues after being fat shamed as a puppy and she was struggling with bulimia which no one knew about... except Erin.

 

[juliajjj]

What's the best podcast covering this trial? I think I prefer the ABC one, but there are a few others too.

 

[Spectrix]

At 0.10mg/111kg Erin should have been pretty ill even after purging some time later (she only said that evening) somewhere between approximately 3 and 5 hours maybe.

And the kids should have shown some symptoms, maybe mild ones like a tummy ache. Of course this is all supposition as none of us are toxicologists or mycologists. And Dr. G pointed out the variables that could affect a person.

Also, I think another dosage was cited by… Dr. May? That testimony was posted here but it’s not easily found.

I believe those figures are amitoxin on it's own.
The quantity of fresh deathcap required to kill an adult is cited as being 30 - 50 grams.
Erin had over 500grams of deathcaps on her scale prior to dehydrating them.

Assuming she used all of them, it should have been more than enough to kill all of the house guests, Simon, both of the kids, the dog and Erin herself.

Isn't it remarkable that Erin, the dog and both children escaped unscathed?