Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #13 *Arrest*

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What would be the point of going to so much trouble, with such a deadly ingredient, just to make them ill? I can't see it. She could have tossed in a bottle of ipecac if she just wanted them ill. I believe she sourced a deadly ingredient because death was the desired outcome.
jmo

There could be a lot of points to making them long term ill / sickly / disabled

For control over them, to dis-empower them, to force them to 'need' her care, to prevent them from moving away from her, to give herself a role in their life as caregiver, maybe if they were feeble they could even *pay* her for her assistance? Or just to punish them for getting on her nerves.
Who knows.

She was going to study nursing? Or was she planning to make a whole slew of people sick so they would need her nursing care.

I find it hard to believe she thought everyone would quickly die, it would bring such a lot of attention and investigation. At that point she hadn't even disposed of the dehydrator so she didn't imagine her cooking or anything anyone had eaten could be in question. IMO because she had no idea they were going to pass so quickly, I reckon she thought it was a slow process over weeks / months.

Reference Kathy Bates playing Annie Wilkes in 'Misery'

JMO MOO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I

Huh?

I'm just thinking out loud really, I don't think for one second they'd actually ban foraging.

As a non-mushroom-picker, it seems odd to me that you could pick wild mushrooms, cause the deaths of people and not face any consequences (like has been implied here). Especially as it is known that people can die if the wrong mushrooms are picked.

I was also affected by the expert witness who said until quite recently official guidance was not to forage at all. When there are risks involved to that level, why is there not a high burden placed on the picker?

I genuinely can't think of another example like this, where you can do something that is a known potentially lethal risk, without other people knowing, and not face a consequence. Think of something like driving, where you could innocently cause death. You have to actually pass a test to prove your competence and people in some way share the risk by choosing to get in the car.

 

[Lisa4]

Implausible might not be the right word, but coincidental might be better. There are some extreme coincidences that would need to be true:

She was the only one who wasn't significantly ill out of 5
Her ex-husband just happened to go into a mystery coma the year before
She still happened to pick DC mushrooms despite having read up about them
She just happened not to taste the DC mushrooms when she found them or added them to the duxelle

The rest of the things that are implausible (her not remembering the Asian grocer, not realising she'd added foraged mushrooms until much later, her children not getting ill) would still be explainable if she was innocent because of course she could still be lying to make her look less to blame than she actually is.

This is also true about a lot of her other obvious lies, like the reason for the meal, the denial of a dehydrator etc. She seems to have a mix of lying to make it look like she wasn't to blame at all, and those to make her look better.

I genuinely think she could be innocent and end up going to jail because she has handled it so badly: in trying to save face she has just been exposed as a fantasist and a liar.

Ah yes. If she is innocent, there sure are an absolutely amazing number of lucky coincidences to answer for various details!

 

[Spectrix]

There could be a lot of points to making them long term ill / sickly / disabled

For control over them, to dis-empower them, to force them to 'need' her care, to prevent them from moving away from her, to give herself a role in their life as caregiver, maybe if they were feeble they could even *pay* her for her assistance? Or just to punish them for getting on her nerves.
Who knows.

She was going to study nursing? Or was she planning to make a whole slew of people sick so they would need her nursing care.

I find it hard to believe she thought everyone would quickly die, it would bring such a lot of attention and investigation. At that point she hadn't even disposed of the dehydrator so she didn't imagine her cooking or anything anyone had eaten could be in question. IMO because she had no idea they were going to pass so quickly, I reckon she thought it was a slow process over weeks / months.

Reference Kathy Bates playing Annie Wilkes in 'Misery'

JMO MOO

With all due respect, they are called Death Caps, not A Little Bit Sick Caps.
Death Caps are rather aptly named, because eating them makes people dead.

Erin collected enough Death Caps to kill ten adults.
Perhaps you can't believe that she intended her guests to die, but it doesn't make it any less likely.

But okay, let's ignore all of that, and assume that your scenario of using Death Caps to make her guests sick without dying had actually worked. How do you think Erin was expecting to nurse five guests with liver failure back to good health, exactly?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

So what do Aussies do for the King's birthday?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

There could be a lot of points to making them long term ill / sickly / disabled

For control over them, to dis-empower them, to force them to 'need' her care, to prevent them from moving away from her, to give herself a role in their life as caregiver, maybe if they were feeble they could even *pay* her for her assistance? Or just to punish them for getting on her nerves.
Who knows.

She was going to study nursing? Or was she planning to make a whole slew of people sick so they would need her nursing care.

I find it hard to believe she thought everyone would quickly die, it would bring such a lot of attention and investigation. At that point she hadn't even disposed of the dehydrator so she didn't imagine her cooking or anything anyone had eaten could be in question. IMO because she had no idea they were going to pass so quickly, I reckon she thought it was a slow process over weeks / months.

Reference Kathy Bates playing Annie Wilkes in 'Misery'

JMO MOO

Even though the initial 3 charges against her for previously trying to unalive Simon were thrown out, there's still the possibility that she (allegedly) did. The last time Simon was in an induced coma and nearly died.

 

[Lisa4]

As a non-mushroom-picker, it seems odd to me that you could pick wild mushrooms, cause the deaths of people and not face any consequences (like has been implied here)

I haven't managed yet to find another situation in Australia where the forager didn’t eat the foraged mushrooms themselves and die, or become extremely ill and require medical care for many days or weeks.

It's rare overall and it appears more rare still that the foragers even share their mushrooms. Usually they've picked them, eaten them alone and then ended up as above.

The only two recent cases (since 2010) I could find where they were shared in a meal were immigrant Asians who did not know about deathcaps. In each case the forager barely survived, and the others who shared died. (3 died in total).

No consequences for the cooks in either case. Discussions were had with some Asian communities for better education around deadly mushrooms.

So to date I guess the consequences themselves have been enough deterrent.

It really does seem this case is unprecedented.

 

[Lisa4]

So what do Aussies do for the King's birthday?

... eat a good traditional British dinner of beef wellington??

 

[MaxDecimus13]

I haven't managed yet to find another situation in Australia where the forager didn’t eat the foraged mushrooms themselves and die, or become extremely ill and require medical care for many days or weeks.

It's rare overall and it appears more rare still that the foragers even share their mushrooms. Usually they've picked them, eaten them alone and then ended up as above.

The only two recent cases (since 2010) I could find where they were shared in a meal were immigrant Asians who did not know about deathcaps. In each case the forager barely survived, and the others who shared died. (3 died in total).

No consequences for the cooks in either case. Discussions were had with some Asian communities for better education around deadly mushrooms.

So to date I guess the consequences themselves have been enough deterrent.

It really does seem this case is unprecedented.

Excellent post. I suppose the reality that most people harm themselves as well is seen as a deterrent enough.

From searching online it appears that most mushroom legislation is around the legality of where to pick. Some regions require licenses and even a basic mycology course before you can pick.

There are also a couple of vague references to people taking out civil cases against people who've made them ill but I can't find any specifics.

 

[Doesitmakesense]

So what do Aussies do for the King's birthday?

Enjoy a paid day off work.

 

[MrJ]

It's EP cross-examination day! Aren't we lucky. As usual I'll be providing the ABC trial updates as soon as they appear in the live blog and as soon as I can find the live blog this morning. We'll be waiting for a while for that to appear though. It all starts at 10:30 am my time, a little less than three hours away.

 

[MsMarple]

Duh, I just now realized we have a new thread. I took another look at an article someone (apologies I don’t remember who) posted a few threads back, or one similar, about other cases in Australian courts. The article specifically addresses cases handled by judge Beale but it could apply to any judge.

What surprised me was the sentence time handed down in some pretty grim cases that probably would have garnered more time here in the US. Furthermore upon appeal in some cases the judges decided the jury was wrong and either downgraded murder convictions to manslaughter or decreased time to be served.

To be clear I’m not complaining about any judges or even the Australian legal system; heaven knows the US system could be better too. I’m mainly expressing some concern that if Erin is found guilty she’ll either get a lighter sentence or else will get a reversal upon appeal.

Anyway here’s the article:

Other killings Justice Beale looked at to calculate Ristevski sentence

After widespread consternation after Borce Ristevski's sentencing, we delve into the cases Justice Christopher Beale referred to when deciding the prison term.

www.theage.com.au

 

[JBowie]

She is just so arrogant, I wonder if she was born that way, or if it developed over time? There is no hiding her arrogance, and she doesn't even seem to try. Because she wants everyone to know how much superior, smarter or whatever, she is.

[bbm]

In messages exchanged shortly after her mother Heather Scutter died, Patterson opened up about her childhood, including how she and her sister were treated, likening it to a Russian orphanage.

Patterson described her mother as a “cold robot”, writing that “my mum was ultra weird her whole life”.

“We had a horrible upbringing. Mum was essentially a cold robot. It was like being brought up in a Russian orphanage where they don’t touch babies.”

Putting my amateur psychologist hat on, these are conditions known to produce personalities on the narcissism scale.

Texts reveal accused killer mushroom chef's 'horrible' upbringing, new details of past

Fresh details emerge of Erin Patterson's childhood.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[MrJ]

Yeah, the Australian legal system, and particularly my home state of Victoria, definitely does things like that. You'll have offenders be granted bail even for violent charges. I hope the sentencing isn't light if she is found guilty.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Wonder if maybe Erin was thinking “I’ll give you something to pray for..” and a bit of

[bbm]

In messages exchanged shortly after her mother Heather Scutter died, Patterson opened up about her childhood, including how she and her sister were treated, likening it to a Russian orphanage.

Patterson described her mother as a “cold robot”, writing that “my mum was ultra weird her whole life”.

“We had a horrible upbringing. Mum was essentially a cold robot. It was like being brought up in a Russian orphanage where they don’t touch babies.”

Putting my amateur psychologist hat on, these are conditions known to produce personalities on the narcissism scale.

Texts reveal accused killer mushroom chef's 'horrible' upbringing, new details of past

Fresh details emerge of Erin Patterson's childhood.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Not sure than anyone meets Erin’s standards of intelligence, hygiene, affection …etc

I do wonder if her mother was a robot, was her father also a robot? My opinion is Erin finds fault in everyone.

 

[Lisa4]

On another but important note, I want to share some info I have just learned about sub judice in case there are any other Aussies who aren't really aware. My understandings only.

1. It's not really a concern in the US!
2. But it is here in Australia.
3. It applies while a case is being tried.


This link was quite helpful. 10. Sub judice contempt: restricting the publication of prejudicial information - Victorian Law Reform Commission

 

[MsMarple]

Wonder if maybe Erin was thinking “I’ll give you something to pray for..” and a bit of

Not sure than anyone meets Erin’s standards of intelligence, hygiene, affection …etc

I do wonder if her mother was a robot, was her father also a robot? My opinion is Erin finds fault in everyone.

Yeah it’s kind of hard to tell what to believe. She said Simon was coercive and controlling and she didn’t like that his house wasn’t clean enough for the kids. True? Not true? Who knows.

Erin has a habit of making out that everyone in her life is either a villain or a disappointment. She may very well have had a cold and distant upbringing. Or not.

 

[Lisa4]

More on sub judice:

From AI: If you strongly believe someone is innocent or guilty, but the case is still sub judice (i.e., ongoing trial), you must be extremely careful not to prejudice the legal process. However, it’s still possible to express your views responsibly and legally by focusing on:

• Your emotional reaction, not judgment.
• The process, not the outcome.
• The need for justice, not a presumption of guilt.

Also my own research from AI resource
Sub judice example

• "I saw the video — there’s no way he’s innocent.

Reframed example

• "That video is disturbing, but I know the court will examine all the evidence properly. We have to let the process play out."

Summary tips again from an AI resource:

Replace “He is guilty/He is innocent” with “If found guilty/If found innocent”

Replace “He should go to jail” with “If the evidence proves guilt, the court should sentence appropriately.”

Use words like “alleged,” “accused,” “awaiting trial,” “under investigation”.

Center your comments on due process, the impact on victims, or the need for fair trials, not personal judgment.


I would be grateful for tips and comments from others who have been here longer.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yeah it’s kind of hard to tell what to believe. She said Simon was coercive and controlling and she didn’t like that his house wasn’t clean enough for the kids. True? Not true? Who knows.

Erin has a habit of making out that everyone in her life is either a villain or a disappointment. She may very well have had a cold and distant upbringing. Or not.

Didn’t she say it took her TWO weeks to clean Simon’s house -

Maybe she is a very slow cleaner
Or
His house is ginormous
Or
Maybe his house was needing a good clean because he was unexpectedly in a coma.
Or
She’s just exaggerating

 

[Lisa4]

Maybe his house was needing a good clean because he was unexpectedly in a coma.
Or
She’s just exaggerating

Rsbm. Bbm
I snorted out loud