Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[katydid23]

Erin wasn't told that the doctors thought her guests had DC poisioning until she fronted to hostpital on the Monday. Until then, her version is that she had no idea what had caused the 4 people to become ill. It was only after she was told about the possibility of DC poisioning that she said her kids hadn't eaten mushrooms.

Correct, but even AFTER she was told by the doctor on Monday, that they suspected mushroom poisoning, Erin did not believe it was mushrooms that were the cause.

That was her testimony on the stand----she said she thought that was an incorrect diagnosis.

And if she is telling the truth about that, then why wasn't she more concerned about hr kid's safety?

 

[JBowie]

That was her testimony on the stand----she said she thought that was an incorrect diagnosis.

Gotta love how she wants to challenge doctors at their own profession. Her arrogance has no limit, IMO.

 

[Ellery84]

Shortened by me.
I think she did have some experience as a forager, but maybe not as much as has been claimed. I do feel like she was trying to appear like a more experienced forager, so that she could perhaps claim to have used foraged mushrooms plenty of times without any issues. Her son said she took photos of a mushroom on a walk once, I believe she shared photos of her dried mushrooms with online friends, and there was information about a "grow your own mushrooms" class in the local newsletter Erin was editor of, that's about all we know to be true. I doubt Erin attended that workshop, or else we'd know about it. I find that interesting. If she was so into mushrooms at that point, then surely she'd want to attend? Better than buying them from the supermarket at $10-$11 a kilo. Nobody seems to be able to corroborate the story of her going foraging as a family, and with the extended family too, in fact they say it didn't happen.

She did have a more than an average interest in mushrooms. She dehydrated them, crushed them and put them into all sorts of things. That I believe. She may also have had books on mushrooms but I don't know if that was proven. I'm just not certain which came first - her interest in mushrooms, or the thought that deadly mushrooms can be used for nefarious purposes. I'm thinking the later may have lead to the former.

With all due respect, I think the Prosecution is mostly correct.

I think Erin’s interest in mushrooms was limited to the planning involved in collection and preparation of death caps with the view to kill people in her husband’s family through poisoning via death cap.

I don’t think she had any other interest in mushrooms, and I think the taste test she did with her daughter (with a non poisonous variety of mushroom) was part of her process toward poisoning her husband’s relatives.

All IMO. She may very well be innocent and I may be completely off-base. I remain poised to hear the jury’s verdict, whenever that may occur.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Sure thing Erin, they didn't tell you it was life threatening, but your 4 lunch guests are in intensive care in critical condition, the doctors begged you to stay in the hospital for emergency treatment and they sent Simon to go pick up your kids and rush them in for testing.

But they never said it was urgent or serious?

Tbh this epitomised much of Erin's testimony and it didn't come across as clever just obtuse.

They didn't say specifically that it was life-threatening.
They asked what phone I was using right this minute.
They didn't ask if I foraged, just if foraged mushrooms might be in the meal.

In all these instances, in a real-life context, the next step would be to ask the question or to point out that you'd recently changed etc.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

With all due respect, I think the Prosecution is mostly correct.

I think Erin’s interest in mushrooms was limited to the planning involved in collection and preparation of death caps with the view to kill people in her husband’s family through poisoning via death cap.

I don’t think she had any other interest in mushrooms, and I think the taste test she did with her daughter (with a non poisonous variety of mushroom) was part of her process toward poisoning her husband’s relatives.

All IMO. She may very well be innocent and I may be completely off-base. I remain poised to hear the jury’s verdict, whenever that may occur.

I don't think this is necessarily true, she clearly seemed to be someone who liked mushrooms.

There was also some messages from her Facebook group where she was showing how fascinated she was by the dehydrating process. There was one in particular where she mentioned reducing the weight by 80/90%. There's no reason to doubt that this was a genuine fascination.

I don't think she was an avid forager, the kids would've picked up on it if she was. I also don't think she sought out death caps, I think it was more likely an opportunity that presented itself.

The prosecution's timeline suggests she went on inaturalist, took a visit to those two places and then bought a dehydrator all within a few days. If this is true (and it's one area I don't think they've proved it for definite) it points to a plan being formed as a result of finding out about the DC.

 

[Lisa4]

It was only the specificity of the DC identification that narrowed the search and pointed it firmly in her direction.

I've been busy and need to catch up, but wanted to quickly emphasise a point around this.
The DC possibility was first raised on Sunday night 10.30pm I believe, by an on-call toxicologist to a chief toxicologist.

The chief toxicologist wasn't convinced.

I find this very interesting. For some reason the chief toxicologist just didn't see it as a high possibility. Why was this...

• Was it because such patients usually come in with the information that "We have eaten some foraged mushrooms"??
• "Wrong" season??
• Or.... what?

After all, it was known from earlier that day that they had eaten mushrooms. So why was it that the chief toxicologist didn't consider it valid enough to say, Yes very likely, start the antidote at once...?

By NO means am I blaming the toxicologist! I am certain they did the best they could with what they knew. I am still just puzzled and intrigued about this point.

 

[JBowie]

The prosecution's timeline suggests she went on inaturalist, took a visit to those two places and then bought a dehydrator all within a few days. If this is true (and it's one area I don't think they've proved it for definite)

Given everything else, I'm satisfied that all of it is fact.

Although the phone expert agreed that the pings from her phone could have been from a different tower, fact is those pings were in the area of VIC that is in question.

 

[Monstradamus]

For those of us that do not believe the mushroom lunch was a tragic accident, I am curious, do you think Erin was an experienced forager for wild edible mushrooms or do you think the dc mushroom gathering outings in Loch and Outtrim were her only foraging experiences?

I think I can see that either could be true, though there is only her word, and that of the anonymous friend quoted by the Daily Mail, that she is an experienced forager.

The reason I ask is because I was looking through Facebook and instagram posts from a Korumburra group called “Grow Lightly” (they appear to be a food co-op/ store in Korumburra) and found some posts about mushroom foraging workshops on June 21st, 2022.
I believe they are the same people that facilitated the mushroom growing workshop advertised in the “Burra Flyer” during Erin’s time as editor.
View attachment 595046

I am wondering if Erin either attended these workshops herself or used the details (types of mushrooms, locations: Korumburra Botanic Park and Great Southern Rail Trail) to inform her evidence as an “experienced forager”.

Interesting that this workshop was the week before her (allegedly) searching for dcs on iNaturalist too.

Some screenshots below from “grow lightly” on instagram and Facebook .
(IMO the person in the last picture in maroon parka even looks a bit like her, probably just my imagination though )

View attachment 595033View attachment 595034View attachment 595035View attachment 595036

I think she's an experienced forager, and should have known better.
MOO

 

[Monstradamus]

Erin wasn't told that the doctors thought her guests had DC poisioning until she fronted to hostpital on the Monday. Until then, her version is that she had no idea what had caused the 4 people to become ill. It was only after she was told about the possibility of DC poisioning that she said her kids hadn't eaten mushrooms.

And then she panicked and immediately left the hospital. Not the actions of an innocent person. IMO

 

[Lisa4]

Yes, ^^^that's what I am wondering. Did powdering the Death Caps intensify their impact.

I think it is possible because they did not have pieces of mushroom to digest before the toxins were delivered. I think the toxins being in powdered form would speed up the delivery of the poison into the bloodstream the digestive track and then the liver.

If so, even more reason that vomiting 2+ hrs later would not save a person from serious suffering

 

[brisbanemum]

Given everything else, I'm satisfied that all of it is fact.

Although the phone expert agreed that the pings from her phone could have been from a different tower, fact is those pings were in the area of VIC that is in question.

Yes. And it’s too much of a coincidence for me that the dehydrator was purchased on the very same day.

 

[SouthAussie]

I've been busy and need to catch up, but wanted to quickly emphasise a point around this.
The DC possibility was first raised on Sunday night 10.30pm I believe, by an on-call toxicologist to a chief toxicologist.

The chief toxicologist wasn't convinced.

I find this very interesting. For some reason the chief toxicologist just didn't see it as a high possibility. Why was this...

• Was it because such patients usually come in with the information that "We have eaten some foraged mushrooms"??
• "Wrong" season??
• Or.... what?

After all, it was known from earlier that day that they had eaten mushrooms. So why was it that the chief toxicologist didn't consider it valid enough to say, Yes very likely, start the antidote at once...?

By NO means am I blaming the toxicologist! I am certain they did the best they could with what they knew. I am still just puzzled and intrigued about this point.

My understanding is that there wasn't enough evidence at the time to specifically diagnose death cap poisoning, but that they started the victims on liver protection drugs as a precaution (and until they knew more).



Douglas called the lead toxicologist, who advised him that at this time there was not enough evidence of the couple having ingested death cap mushrooms. However, the doctors spoke about starting Don on a liver protective medication.
“So at that point the specific antidote wasn’t indicated,” Douglas said.

The jury heard that about 1am on July 31, 2023, Douglas was informed by Gail’s treating doctor that subsequent blood tests had shown that her liver function was worsening. He advised Gail’s treating doctor to start her on some protective liver medication.

Douglas arrived at Dandenong Hospital later that day and examined Don, who was conscious at the time and confirmed that he had consumed a beef Wellington lunch.

“At that stage, I recall that ... we were still unsure about the exact mechanism, and there were several other kind of potential poisons that could have caused such an effect beyond just the mushroom. But the feeling was that we will start the treatment for the Amanita phalloides [death cap mushrooms] while things are so undecided,” Douglas said.

Doctor’s death cap poisoning warning played to jury after son, daughters of guests at fatal beef Wellington lunch testify: Trial day seven, as it happened

Erin Patterson has pleaded not guilty to murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington laced with death cap mushrooms. Follow our live coverage of the triple-murder trial here.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Lisa4]

My understanding is that there wasn't enough evidence at the time to specifically diagnose death cap poisoning, but that they started the victims on liver protection drugs as a precaution (and until they knew more).



Douglas called the lead toxicologist, who advised him that at this time there was not enough evidence of the couple having ingested death cap mushrooms. However, the doctors spoke about starting Don on a liver protective medication.
“So at that point the specific antidote wasn’t indicated,” Douglas said.

The jury heard that about 1am on July 31, 2023, Douglas was informed by Gail’s treating doctor that subsequent blood tests had shown that her liver function was worsening. He advised Gail’s treating doctor to start her on some protective liver medication.

Douglas arrived at Dandenong Hospital later that day and examined Don, who was conscious at the time and confirmed that he had consumed a beef Wellington lunch.

“At that stage, I recall that ... we were still unsure about the exact mechanism, and there were several other kind of potential poisons that could have caused such an effect beyond just the mushroom. But the feeling was that we will start the treatment for the Amanita phalloides [death cap mushrooms] while things are so undecided,” Douglas said.

Doctor’s death cap poisoning warning played to jury after son, daughters of guests at fatal beef Wellington lunch testify: Trial day seven, as it happened

Erin Patterson has pleaded not guilty to murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington laced with death cap mushrooms. Follow our live coverage of the triple-murder trial here.

www.smh.com.au

Yes, correct they did end up starting the DC antidote before it was confirmed.

But that DC antidote was given the go-ahead at 6.50am Monday morning (after liver test rssults came back so much worse).

It wasn't given as a precaution when deathcaps were first suggested by the on-call toxicologist at 10.30pm Sunday night. That makes me think that deathcaps just weren't really seen as very likely...

I just find it very interesting. Again I am absolutely not blaming anyone for not giving the antidote sooner!

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, correct they did end up starting the DC antidote before it was confirmed.

But that DC antidote was given the go-ahead at 6.50am Monday morning (after liver test rssults came back so much worse).

It wasn't given as a precaution when deathcaps were first suggested by the on-call toxicologist at 10.30pm Sunday night. That makes me think that deathcaps just weren't really seen as very likely...

I just find it very interesting. Again I am absolutely not blaming anyone for not given the antidote sooner!

At 10:30pm, it sounds as if DC toxin was being considered. They were still trying to work out if it was food poisoning or toxin poisoning.
And the victims might have been in the short "recovery period" - hydrated and feeling a bit better - before being hit by the 2nd round of toxin assault and death.


About 10:30pm, Dr Morgan says she texted the toxicology department, who ordered her to find out more about what was served at lunch.

"I was concerned that this wasnt just gastroenteritis caused by food poisoning," Dr Morgan says.

"There was a discussion about the presentation and how it was quite severe, but the onset of symptoms was quite delayed.

"This would be more indicative of a serious toxin syndrome as opposed to a food poisoning."

Dr Morgan says the toxicologist on call told her that if it was a toxin poisoning, it was most likely due to the ingestion of the amanita phalloides (death cap mushroom) toxin.

Dying lunch guest's 'extremely abnormal' blood test results raised hospital alarm, court hears — as it happened

Ms Patterson is accused of murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington laced with poisonous death cap mushrooms. Follow the trial in our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

 

[CityKid]

This is why she had to make herself appear to have vomiting and diarrhea.

I'm surprised she only told the hospital staff about the diarrhea and didn't mention vomiting. I wonder if that made the staff suspicious as to whether she'd also ingested the DC?

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, correct they did end up starting the DC antidote before it was confirmed.

But that DC antidote was given the go-ahead at 6.50am Monday morning (after liver test rssults came back so much worse).

It wasn't given as a precaution when deathcaps were first suggested by the on-call toxicologist at 10.30pm Sunday night. That makes me think that deathcaps just weren't really seen as very likely...

I just find it very interesting. Again I am absolutely not blaming anyone for not giving the antidote sooner!

Just to add, in that article I posted about 60% of the toxin going to the liver, and 40% going to the kidneys, it says that a doctor's first experience with DC poisoning may also be their last experience with DC poisoning. It is so relatively rare.

 

[CityKid]

Correct, but even AFTER she was told by the doctor on Monday, that they suspected mushroom poisoning, Erin did not believe it was mushrooms that were the cause.

That was her testimony on the stand----she said she thought that was an incorrect diagnosis.

And if she is telling the truth about that, then why wasn't she more concerned about hr kid's safety?

Right? And whatever the cause, if someone knew their children had eaten any part of what the hospitalized people ate, wouldn't they bring them in for testing? Why would someone take a chance with their children's lives? MOO but her story about not wanting the children to be frightened makes no sense.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Right? And whatever the cause, if someone knew their children had eaten any part of what the hospitalized people ate, wouldn't they bring them in for testing? Why would someone take a chance with their children's lives? MOO but her story about not wanting the children to be frightened makes no sense.

She did NOT want anyone in hospital asking her kids QUESTIONS without her prepping them first.

 

[Kemug]

Yes, ^^^that's what I am wondering. Did powdering the Death Caps intensify their impact.

I think it is possible because they did not have pieces of mushroom to digest before the toxins were delivered. I think the toxins being in powdered form would speed up the delivery of the poison into the bloodstream the digestive track and then the liver.

So Erin might make it into criminal and medical history if this turns out to be the very first case of a poisoner using dried and powdered deathcaps! And that usage will be tried and tested, and possibly found to be much more potent than more usual ways of ingesting mushrooms. She will be famous! And we, my friends, could well be witnessing history!
MOO, of course.

 

[Kemug]

Horrific to contemplate

So so cruel.