Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #8 *Arrest*

[MsMarple]

She did make beans and potato. Easy enough for a 15 year old to think that was salad perhaps.



She was too sick to attend church but took him to a flying lesson 1 hour and 10 minutes away. This is suspicious not a dutiful mother, in my opinion.



I was already thinking that my children would describe grey plates as white, so I wasn’t shocked to see this descriptor.

I can see some confusion between gray and white plates but why no mention of the odd colored plate?

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm worried about your search history.

I think a dodgy search history is a requirement of membership here, isn't it?

Also, as we see from this case, a fatal amount can't be calculated so precisely.

Each individual mushroom will have its own amount of toxin.

Each individual who eats death caps will have their own reaction, and their own progression through the stages of poisoning. See Don and Gail. Don ate one and a half portions to Gail's half portion. Gail died first. Heather and Ian ate the same amount, and one died, one lived.

It's incorrect to state firmly that a precise amount of mushroom wouldn't harm someone, or would. There are too many factors at play.

It's safer just to say what is truth - there is NO safe amount of death cap mushroom to ingest in any form, and leave it at that.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I can see some confusion between gray and white plates but why no mention of the odd colored plate?

None at all, just a mention of a black and red plate, which is not orange by any stretch of the imagination.

Daughter: "There's a black-and-red one and there's some white ones and I think that's all the colours we have," she says.

So, no grey or orange plates. Which really makes me wonder if they were bought for the purpose of the lunch, then disposed of immediately afterwards.

MOO

 

[Detechtive]

I can see some confusion between gray and white plates but why no mention of the odd colored plate?

Honestly my children wouldn’t know about much except we usually eat from white plates. I don’t think the lack of knowledge about the orange plate points to anything of material relevance.

 

[Detechtive]

I'm worried about your search history.

I am too, it’s horrifying

 

[Detechtive]

I think a dodgy search history is a requirement of membership here, isn't it?

Also, as we see from this case, a fatal amount can't be calculated so precisely.

Each individual mushroom will have its own amount of toxin.

Each individual who eats death caps will have their own reaction, and their own progression through the stages of poisoning. See Don and Gail. Don ate one and a half portions to Gail's half portion. Gail died first. Heather and Ian ate the same amount, and one died, one lived.

It's incorrect to state firmly that a precise amount of mushroom wouldn't harm someone, or would. There are too many factors at play.

It's safer just to say what is truth - there is NO safe amount of death cap mushroom to ingest in any form, and leave it at that.

I think a dodgy search history is a requirement of membership here, isn't it?

Also, as we see from this case, a fatal amount can't be calculated so precisely.

Each individual mushroom will have its own amount of toxin.

Each individual who eats death caps will have their own reaction, and their own progression through the stages of poisoning. See Don and Gail. Don ate one and a half portions to Gail's half portion. Gail died first. Heather and Ian ate the same amount, and one died, one lived.

It's incorrect to state firmly that a precise amount of mushroom wouldn't harm someone, or would. There are too many factors at play.

It's safer just to say what is truth - there is NO safe amount of death cap mushroom to ingest in any form, and leave it at that.

MOO

It is based on science that I linked previously that anyone of an average body weight of 70kgs would not die unless they consumed at least 7grams of death caps, and even then, only in 10-30% of cases *without* medical intervention.

Ergo, this can tell us that because 75% of the consumers died after medical intervention, that at least 25gms were in each “pie “ considering that one of the consumers ate only about half and died rapidly WITH medical intervention.

It is math, and it is predictable.

 

[iamshadow21]

It is based on science that I linked previously that anyone of an average body weight of 70kgs would not die unless they consumed at least 7grams of death caps, and even then, only in 10-30% of cases *without* medical intervention.

Ergo, this can tell us that because 75% of the consumers died after medical intervention, that at least 25gms were in each “pie “ considering that one of the consumers ate only about half and died rapidly WITH medical intervention.

It is math, and it is predictable.

Statistics isn't everything, especially when there are variables, which is what I was trying to point out with my comment.

MOO

 

[Cliff Hardy]

I think a dodgy search history is a requirement of membership here, isn't it?

It probably is and heaven help us if we get a knock on the door from someone holding a search warrant.

I'm considering putting my internet shortcuts on a memory stick and hiding it in an outside couch.

 

[Detechtive]

Statistics isn't everything, especially when there are variables, which is what I was trying to point out with my comment.

MOO

When it comes to medical science, statistics are nearly everything actually.

Sure there is some variance, but not much.

Given the patients were elderly I imagine that there may have been some variance and perhaps they needed slightly less to become deathly ill, but not enough variance to sufficiently skew the probabilities.

For example, if someone was an alcoholic with alcoholic cirrhosis I can imagine that they may need less death caps to be fatal, but these outliers are accounted for already in statistics.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Today we heard the remainder of the police interview with Erin Patterson's daughter as well as the full interview with her son.

Here are five things the court heard:

1. Erin Patterson's son described his parents' relationship as "very negative", saying Erin and Simon Patterson "had a few arguments". "I know Dad does a lot of things to try to hurt Mum, such as, messing around with the school," he said in his police interview.

2. He explained he and his mother drove for an hour to a flying lesson in Tyabb the day after the lunch but it was cancelled when they were 10 minutes away so they turned around. They stopped once and bought dim sims and a hot dog and his mother had a coffee but did not use the toilet.

3. Erin's son recalled a walk "during COVID times" when his mother stopped to take photos of mushrooms "because they looked nice".

4. He said his mother told him the meat they ate for dinner was from reheated leftovers from the lunch she had held with Don and Gail Patterson and Ian and Heather Wilkinson.

5. In his police interview, Erin's son said he went upstairs around 5:30pm on the day of the lunch and found his mother "playing Lego". The court also heard Erin had a Lego set at her Mount Waverley home, which Erin's son used when they stayed in Melbourne.


That's the end of court proceedings today.

The jury has left the court room and Monday is a rest day, so the trial will resume on Tuesday.

​

​

Erin Patterson took son on hours-long drive despite feeling sick, murder trial hears — as it happened

Erin Patterson is accused of murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington that contained death cap mushrooms. Look back at how the day in court unfolded.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Cliff Hardy]

When it comes to medical science, statistics are nearly everything actually.

Sure there is some variance, but not much.

I love being able to quantify things accurately in the name of predictability but as an example, look at the variables in how much alcohol affects different people and even the same person on different days, under different circumstances.

Amongst all the constants in science there are usually little gremlins called variables.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The citizen science app playing an unlikely role in a murder trial

What is iNaturalist? The citizen science app playing an unlikely role in Erin Patterson’s mushroom murder trial.

www.sydney.edu.au

The world has been gripped by the case of Australian woman Erin Patterson, who was charged with the murder of three people after allegedly serving them a lunch of beef wellington containing poisonous death cap mushrooms (Amanita phalloides).

A new element of the sensational story emerged in court this week, when prosecutors reportedly alleged Patterson used iNaturalist to locate and visit places where death cap mushrooms were known to grow.

So what exactly is iNaturalist? And how is this 17-year-old citizen science project being used to better understand our world?

 

[ch_13]

The son actually said that the plates from the lunch were white.

But the relatives said they were served on grey dishes with the exception of Erin who used a colorful dish. Puzzling.

Ian's testimony was that Erin told them about the cancer diagnosis only after lunch was finished. Then while they were talking about it, the son returned home, cutting short their discussion.

I'd be very surprised if the dirty plates were just left out on the table after lunch while they had their talk. Maybe the dessert / fruit plates, but not the remnants of the Beef Wellington. In which case, I don't think the son would have even seen the grey plates.

 

[iamshadow21]

When it comes to medical science, statistics are nearly everything actually.

Sure there is some variance, but not much.

Given the patients were elderly I imagine that there may have been some variance and perhaps they needed slightly less to become deathly ill, but not enough variance to sufficiently skew the probabilities.

For example, if someone was an alcoholic with alcoholic cirrhosis I can imagine that they may need less death caps to be fatal, but these outliers are accounted for already in statistics.

There is always variance, that's why every medication has a laundry list of possible side effects. It may not be an issue for the majority of people, but it's significant enough that it has to have a disclaimer that covers all bases.

Every individual has their own body chemistry, their own vulnerabilities. One can say X amount of people will likely die when exposed to X amount of mushroom, but that's not deep, it's not going into why some die quicker or slower, or why some live when they eat exactly what their dinner mates did.

As far as I know, statistics can give a rough estimate for how likely an individual is to die or live, but that number is exactly the same for everyone else at the table. So everyone could have died, everyone could have lived, or two could have died and two lived. That doesn't mean the statistics are wrong. It just means that without variables (pre-existing conditions, vulnerabilities, amount consumed) everyone had an equal chance of survivability. Just because one person died didn't make the others more likely to live, or vice versa.

MOO

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Must admit, if l had dinner at a friend's place and you asked me later on what colour the plates were, l'd struggle. Particularly if they were white or grey and l was asked which of the two they were.

Full disclosure : l am male and would likely only have had a boy's look.

 

[Megnut]

It probably is and heaven help us if we get a knock on the door from someone holding a search warrant.

I'm considering putting my internet shortcuts on a memory stick and hiding it in an outside couch.

I hid mine in your couch.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

I hid mine in your couch.

I better hide my couch too.

Multiple layers of protection.

 

[Megnut]

Today we heard the remainder of the police interview with Erin Patterson's daughter as well as the full interview with her son.

Here are five things the court heard:

1. Erin Patterson's son described his parents' relationship as "very negative", saying Erin and Simon Patterson "had a few arguments". "I know Dad does a lot of things to try to hurt Mum, such as, messing around with the school," he said in his police interview.

2. He explained he and his mother drove for an hour to a flying lesson in Tyabb the day after the lunch but it was cancelled when they were 10 minutes away so they turned around. They stopped once and bought dim sims and a hot dog and his mother had a coffee but did not use the toilet.

3. Erin's son recalled a walk "during COVID times" when his mother stopped to take photos of mushrooms "because they looked nice".

4. He said his mother told him the meat they ate for dinner was from reheated leftovers from the lunch she had held with Don and Gail Patterson and Ian and Heather Wilkinson.

5. In his police interview, Erin's son said he went upstairs around 5:30pm on the day of the lunch and found his mother "playing Lego". The court also heard Erin had a Lego set at her Mount Waverley home, which Erin's son used when they stayed in Melbourne.


That's the end of court proceedings today.

The jury has left the court room and Monday is a rest day, so the trial will resume on Tuesday.

​

​

Erin Patterson took son on hours-long drive despite feeling sick, murder trial hears — as it happened

Erin Patterson is accused of murdering three relatives by serving them a beef Wellington that contained death cap mushrooms. Look back at how the day in court unfolded.

www.abc.net.au

#1 makes me so sad. Reads like a child was purposefully burdened with his mother's grown up grievances.

May take a child a lifetime to unpeeling the damage of growing up with a narcissist for a parent.

#4 what? Hold up. She told him he was eating the same meat from the meal that was making everyone else ill????? Was she trying to scare him? Something very proxy munchauseny about that. Here, let me shake up your foundation so you'll need me for support.

JMO

 

[Cliff Hardy]

#4 what? Hold up. She told him he was eating the same meat from the meal that was making everyone haven't ill????? Was she trying to scare him? Something very proxy munchauseny about that. Here, let me shake up your foundation so you'll need me for support.

JMO

That caught my eye too. I was thinking it was more likely Erin was trying to paint a 'nothing to see here' picture by being able to claim 'well it didn't affect the kids.'

 

[Megnut]

That caught my eye too. I was thinking it was more likely Erin was trying to paint a 'nothing to see here' picture by being able to claim 'well it didn't affect the kids.'

While being entirely tone deaf or care-less about how the child might hear it.