Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[Deleted member 363451]

Apologies, as I have no idea where the elbow/ovarian cancer thing came from in relation to this trial.

However.... there is such a thing as "referred pain"....

• Referred Pain:
  Ovarian cancer can cause pain in other areas of the body, including the elbow, through referred pain. This occurs when pain signals from the ovary travel along nerve pathways and are perceived in a different location.

The cancer story was made up purely as a reason to get Simon and his relatives to go to lunch. Albeit Simon had the forethought not to attend...

 

[Spectrix]

Did her mother die of cancer?

Or poisoning perhaps?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Or poisoning perhaps?

 

[Bats]

Out of interest, is there any evidence that says the beef wellington actually contained death cap mushrooms?

I mean, the poison may have been in the form of dried mushroom in the mashed potato that was served, could it not? Similar to how mushroom powder was hidden in muffins.

 

[SouthAussie]

Did her mother die of cancer?

Both of her parents died from cancer.



And on Friday, a false claim that Erin's own parents had died due to poisoning was exposed as a lie. The pair actually died of natural causes.

According to a neighbour of Ms Patterson's mother, the death of Dr Heather Scutter from cancer in 2019 was not quick.

'It took her slowly. She went to Melbourne for treatment and came back. Then she died,' a neighbour told Daily Mail Australia.

Her husband had died in 2011 after his own battle with cancer - with his ashes sprinkled on the beach.

Erin Patterson had a 'collection of mushroom books' at her home

Deadly cook Erin Patterson had a collection of books about mushrooms she kept at her home where three people died, Daily Mail Australia has been told.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ch_13]

Out of interest, is there any evidence that says the beef wellington actually contained death cap mushrooms?

I mean, the poison may have been in the form of dried mushroom in the mashed potato that was served, could it not? Similar to how mushroom powder was hidden in muffins.

No, I don't think there's been any testimony as to where the death cap mushrooms were. However, one piece of information that we learned during the trial is that the Beef Wellington was served as individual pasties rather than the more traditional slices from a whole tenderloin. So, it kind of makes sense that the death caps would go there, because it's relatively easy to control and track which portions had the toxin.

The other items she served at the lunch—the mashed potatoes and green beans—would have been harder to lace with poison. It would have looked suspicious if she plated her serving of mashed potatoes from a different pot than the others.

 

[SouthAussie]

Out of interest, is there any evidence that says the beef wellington actually contained death cap mushrooms?

I mean, the poison may have been in the form of dried mushroom in the mashed potato that was served, could it not? Similar to how mushroom powder was hidden in muffins.

I think that both the prosecution and defence have stipulated that fact.
I am guessing that the witness who will verify that information will be heard in the coming weeks.
Unless such a witness is not required because the defence have agreed to the fact. I think when something is stipulated by both sides, it is agreed, and the evidence may not be required.


The Victorian supreme court heard this week that it is not in dispute that the beef wellingtons contained Amanita phalloides, or death cap mushrooms. It is not in dispute that Patterson put them there.
What is in dispute is whether she meant to poison her four guests. Her lawyer, Colin Mandy SC, described it as a tragic accident.

Deliberate poisoning or a tragic accident? The question at the heart of Australia’s mushroom murders trial

Jury hears of a collapsed marriage, cancer claim and mushroom foraging in week one of the trial of Erin Patterson

www.theguardian.com

 

[ch_13]

Does anyone think the defence might suggest that Erin collected the poisonous mushrooms intentionally with a view to poisoning herself?--mainly because she believed she had ovarian cancer. Perhaps she intended to do it at that very meal, but despite her care with the plates, the batches got confused. Her diarrhoea was not faked, but it was mild to moderate, did not last very long, and was caused by whatever real condition she had which she had mistaken for cancer.

As others have said, she did not have cancer, nor did she ever seek treatment for anything she thought was cancer.

But aside from that, this theory has two problems...

1 - If she did prepare one serving that was poisoned and it just got mixed up, then there should have only been one victim, not four.
2 - Death caps are a terrible way to die. It's a slow and extremely painful death as your internal organs melt away. Not the choice of someone who wants to avoid the pain of cancer. There are a dozen quicker and less painful ways to off oneself.

 

[Detechtive]

dbm

 

[Detechtive]

Does anyone think the defence might suggest that Erin collected the poisonous mushrooms intentionally with a view to poisoning herself?--mainly because she believed she had ovarian cancer. Perhaps she intended to do it at that very meal, but despite her care with the plates, the batches got confused. Her diarrhoea was not faked, but it was mild to moderate, did not last very long, and was caused by whatever real condition she had which she had mistaken for cancer.

No.

 

[JLZ]

As others have said, she did not have cancer, nor did she ever seek treatment for anything she thought was cancer.

But aside from that, this theory has two problems...

1 - If she did prepare one serving that was poisoned and it just got mixed up, then there should have only been one victim, not four.
2 - Death caps are a terrible way to die. It's a slow and extremely painful death as your internal organs melt away. Not the choice of someone who wants to avoid the pain of cancer. There are a dozen quicker and less painful ways to off oneself.

I think it's moot now. She did not believe that she had cancer.

However: as to point 1, I wasn't supposing a mix-up among the pastries, but among the batches of duxelles. On my scenario, she would have made, say, four good beef wellingtons and one bad, but she got the duxelles mixtures confused and so made four bad beef wellingtons and one good. (I think she probably made more than five.)

Point 2 I hadn't considered.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Both of her parents died from cancer.


Oh, okay - thanks.
And on Friday, a false claim that Erin's own parents had died due to poisoning was exposed as a lie. The pair actually died of natural causes.

According to a neighbour of Ms Patterson's mother, the death of Dr Heather Scutter from cancer in 2019 was not quick.

'It took her slowly. She went to Melbourne for treatment and came back. Then she died,' a neighbour told Daily Mail Australia.

Her husband had died in 2011 after his own battle with cancer - with his ashes sprinkled on the beach.

Erin Patterson had a 'collection of mushroom books' at her home

Deadly cook Erin Patterson had a collection of books about mushrooms she kept at her home where three people died, Daily Mail Australia has been told.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Detechtive]

I think it's moot now. She did not believe that she had cancer.

However: as to point 1, I wasn't supposing a mix-up among the pastries, but among the batches of duxelles. On my scenario, she would have made, say, four good beef wellingtons and one bad, but she got the duxelles mixtures confused and so made four bad beef wellingtons and one good. (I think she probably made more than five.)

Point 2 I hadn't considered.

I am trying to get my head around why that seems plausible?

From what we have discovered through the trial - she allegedly "lured" them all there with a fake cancer diagnosis and then poisoned them. Why would you allegedly lure those people to your house to kill yourself with a horrifying painful torturous death while the lunch guests were all at home living their best lives?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

As others have said, she did not have cancer, nor did she ever seek treatment for anything she thought was cancer.

But aside from that, this theory has two problems...

1 - If she did prepare one serving that was poisoned and it just got mixed up, then there should have only been one victim, not four.
2 - Death caps are a terrible way to die. It's a slow and extremely painful death as your internal organs melt away. Not the choice of someone who wants to avoid the pain of cancer. There are a dozen quicker and less painful ways to off oneself.

Those poor victims...

 

[Detechtive]

It's established that she had not and has not been diagnosed with cancer: which is not the same as definitively not having cancer, and is not the same as not having at least some grounds for believing that she did have cancer.

. . . if you can find your way through my forest of negatives.

So if she believed she had cancer, but wasn't diagnosed, then she must be delusional, a pathological liar or a hypochondriac. Who invites people over to a lunch to tell them they MIGHT have cancer (without being diagnosed) and ask how to tell the children?

I am still miffed at how she got from a lump in the elbow to Ovarian cancer, except, one would have external signs and one wouldn't, and it isn't like anyone is going to ask to inspect her ovaries.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

No, I don't think there's been any testimony as to where the death cap mushrooms were. However, one piece of information that we learned during the trial is that the Beef Wellington was served as individual pasties rather than the more traditional slices from a whole tenderloin. So, it kind of makes sense that the death caps would go there, because it's relatively easy to control and track which portions had the toxin.

The other items she served at the lunch—the mashed potatoes and green beans—would have been harder to lace with poison. It would have looked suspicious if she plated her serving of mashed potatoes from a different pot than the others.

Apart from any alleged intentions, it's such an unusual lunch to prepare when you have bad news about your health to impart on your guests. I would of thought it was more of a celebratory meal, but maybe Erin was in a celebratory mood?

 

[Megnut]

Dbm

 

[Deleted member 363451]

So if she believed she had cancer, but wasn't diagnosed, then she must be delusional, a pathological liar or a hypochondriac. Who invites people over to a lunch to tell them they MIGHT have cancer (without being diagnosed) and ask how to tell the children?

I am still miffed at how she got from a lump in the elbow to Ovarian cancer, except, one would have external signs and one wouldn't, and it isn't like anyone is going to ask to inspect her ovaries.

From the evidence given from Simon, I think she's a hypochondriac for sure and he seems to have taken her at her word with her various illnesses over the years...

 

[Kemug]

I know about hypochondriacs - my mother enjoyed poor health, as they used to say.

 

[JBowie]

the Beef Wellington was served as individual pasties rather than the more traditional slices from a whole tenderloin.

Yes, I had originally assumed it would be the traditional style (pictured) in which case isolating the mushroom mince/paste/duxelle for herself and children would have been quite difficult and fraught with danger. Much easier for that purpose to make them as individual pasties.

I wonder if she marked the pastry, like bakeries do with pies?