Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[JBowie]

Brilliant, thanks. I think that's taken from the opening statements. Hopefully we'll hear solid evidence from forensic toxicologists later in the case to confirm.

I wish we had access to the court transcripts to be able to read everything that was said, not just reporters' summaries of what they may have thought they heard.

 

[Spectrix]

I wish we had access to the court transcripts to be able to read everything that was said, not just reporters' summaries of what they may have thought they heard.

I know right, reading through some of the articles and trying to find solid information is like getting blood out of stone.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Hence her story about scraping away the mushroom paste is bogus.

Exactly.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Further to the above, EP claims to have scraped of the mushroom paste from the pies that she fed the children. Why on earth would you make such pies with mushrooms if you then had to open them up and scrape the paste off?

This is where her already implausible story falls completely apart for me. I am convinced that what was served up to the children was not in the form of Beef Wellington, but separate portions of steak, along with the beans and potatoes.

Did Erin say why she scraped the mushroom paste off the pies for her kids? Was it because they didn't like mushrooms or because she 'thought' it was the likely source of the poisonings? How did she know it was the mushroom and not the beef? Gotcha!

 

[JBowie]

Did Erin say why she scraped the mushroom paste off the pies for her kids? Was it because they didn't like mushrooms or because she 'thought' it was the likely source of the poisonings? How did she know it was the mushroom and not the beef? Gotcha!

When you tell a whole bunch of lies you have to remember who you told what and when.

Patterson told [Dr] Webster her children, aged 9 and 14, had eaten the leftovers, but that she had scraped the mushroom off.

Erin Patterson concocted cancer diagnosis to ensure children missed fatal mushroom lunch, murder trial hears

Patterson, 50, faces three charges of murder and one charge of attempted murder relating to a beef wellington lunch she served at her house in South Gippsland in 2023

www.theguardian.com

 

[Porky1]

So if she believed she had cancer, but wasn't diagnosed.

I am still miffed at how she got from a lump in the elbow to Ovarian cancer, except.

If you’ve ever had a suspected or confirmed diagnosis, you will be aware that Drs can lead you to believe you may have it, over many months while they are investigating. She may have been high risk due to her mother’s cancer (we don’t know what that was) and concerned. She may have jumped the gun sharing this. We know that there was no diagnosis but we don’t know that they weren’t investigating. The lie was that she had it.

And the elbow….

However.... there is such a thing as "referred pain"....

• Referred Pain:
  Ovarian cancer can cause pain in other areas of the body, including the elbow, through referred pain. This occurs when pain signals from the ovary travel along nerve pathways and are perceived in a different location.

I’d never suggest that someone is a hypochondriac, that’s terribly insulting.

 

[JBowie]

I’d never suggest that someone is a hypochondriac, that’s terribly insulting.

... Except when they are. I suspect that many of us have known at least one. I recall being told by a woman at work that her sister-in-law has had everything except a broken leg, and that was expected at any time.

Funny to us, but probably not to the person with that condition.

Hypochondria is considered a psychosomatic disorder and it's common for serious illnesses or deaths of family members or friends to trigger it. The condition is characterized by fears that minor bodily or mental symptoms may indicate a serious illness, constant self-examination, and self-diagnosis. [bbm]

 

[Porky1]

Perhaps, but there still had to be extra wellingtons, because Erin directed the Police on where to find the leftovers to test. This was when she was still claiming that she'd sourced the mushrooms from Woolworths and a Chinese grocer.

On July 31, a police officer found remnants of beef Wellington leftovers in Ms Patterson's rubbish bin, as authorities began investigating the source of suspected poisoning suffered by the lunch guests.

The ABC podcast mentioned that scraps were recovered, tiny pieces. They weren’t full, individual, BWs.

 

[ch_13]

If you’ve ever had a suspected or confirmed diagnosis, you will be aware that Drs can lead you to believe you may have it, over many months while they are investigating. She may have been high risk due to her mother’s cancer (we don’t know what that was) and concerned. She may have jumped the gun sharing this. We know that there was no diagnosis but we don’t know that they weren’t investigating. The lie was that she had it.

And the elbow….

I’d never suggest that someone is a hypochondriac, that’s terribly insulting.

Surely it would have been mentioned by the defense during opening statements if Erin was currently under a doctor's care and they were investigating a potential cancer diagnosis.

None of the reporting has indicated anything of that kind.

 

[KathPlumber]

I see too often that we try to figure out the whys when it comes to murder. A lot of us project our own sense of empathy and morality onto these perpetrators when many are psychopaths so they aren't really very human.

I can notionally understand some murders where they are heat of the moment - for instance, someone finds their partner cheating on them and "snaps", or a mother finds out someone harmed her child and "Snaps", but premeditated murders never make rational sense when you consider the consequences to everyone involved, even if there seems to be a logical motive, IMO.

I am not sure if you meant to reply to me with your post or if it was an accident, since your comment didn’t seem (to me) related. (ETA maybe it got lost between the previous thread and this one!)

 

[MsMarple]

Random question here:

Has either side addressed the defendant’s claim that she dumped the dehydrator because Simon accused her of using it to poison the relatives? Supposedly spoken at the hospital, according to Erin. Allegedly she was afraid her children would be removed.

I don’t recall any questions about it but I was busy posting his testimony and may have missed it.

And to add, it’s irritating that Erin appears to frequently use stress to excuse her behavior. She lost my sympathy when she resisted having the kids checked for poisoning because it would cause them stress. IMO that reasoning misses the mark by a mile as to what a “doting” mother would do.

Dumps the dehydrator due to panic but shuns medical attention because it may stress the kids. Uh uh, nope. JMO

 

[JBowie]

Secret scrum day for the lawyers and judge today. I wonder what is to be proposed in order to, as his nibs said, "try and condense the material that will be presented to you [jurors] ... I expect the case will conclude earlier".

It's been reported that the prosecution listed 90 witnesses. To date, 27 have been called, so about one third through the list.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Secret scrum day for the lawyers and judge today. I wonder what is to be proposed in order to, as his nibs said, "try and condense the material that will be presented to you [jurors] ... I expect the case will conclude earlier".

It's been reported that the prosecution listed 90 witnesses. To date, 27 have been called, so about one third through the list.

Oh to be a fly on the wall...

 

[CityKid]

Random question here:

Has either side addressed the defendant’s claim that she dumped the dehydrator because Simon accused her of using it to poison the relatives? Supposedly spoken at the hospital, according to Erin. Allegedly she was afraid her children would be removed.

I don’t recall any questions about it but I was busy posting his testimony and may have missed it.

And to add, it’s irritating that Erin appears to frequently use stress to excuse her behavior. She lost my sympathy when she resisted having the kids checked for poisoning because it would cause them stress. IMO that reasoning misses the mark by a mile as to what a “doting” mother would do.

Dumps the dehydrator due to panic but shuns medical attention because it may stress the kids. Uh uh, nope. JMO

Simon testified that he never asked that question. It's been posted in other threads here (that I can't find, sorry!) but here's a link to another publication. Quoting from the link:

Defence barrister Colin Mandy SC put it to Simon that he had asked Erin - two days after the lunch - "is that what you used to poison them?", referring to the food dehydrator.
"I did not say that to Erin," Simon responded.

Erin Patterson shared love of mushrooms in online group

Accused triple murderer Erin Patterson shared her love of mushrooms, photos of a dehydrator and plans to cook...

www.thesenior.com.au

 

[Spectrix]

Has either side addressed the defendant’s claim that she dumped the dehydrator because Simon accused her of using it to poison the relatives? Supposedly spoken at the hospital, according to Erin. Allegedly she was afraid her children would be removed.

Don't have time to search for if but I believe Simon denied saying that at all whilst on the stand.

Opp, seems to have been linked above

 

[CityKid]

Don't have time to search for if but I believe Simon denied saying that at all whilst on the stand.

Opp, seems to have been linked above

I had to find a fresh link. I have no idea how many threads back it was originally posted!

 

[MsMarple]

Simon testified that he never asked that question. It's been posted in other threads here (that I can't find, sorry!) but here's a link to another publication. Quoting from the link:

Defence barrister Colin Mandy SC put it to Simon that he had asked Erin - two days after the lunch - "is that what you used to poison them?", referring to the food dehydrator.
"I did not say that to Erin," Simon responded.

Erin Patterson shared love of mushrooms in online group

Accused triple murderer Erin Patterson shared her love of mushrooms, photos of a dehydrator and plans to cook...

www.thesenior.com.au

Thank you! Yes, now I remember; I seem to be having more trouble than usual keeping track of testimony so I appreciate all of you who fill in the blanks.

Did Erin tell the truth about anything? Will the jurors believe her claims? From abc.net.au, my bolding;

In his jury instructions, Justice Christopher Beale reminded the panel that Erin Patterson was presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

"It is for you to judge whether the witnesses are honest and accurate," he said.

"This is something you do all the time in your daily lives. There is no special skill involved. You just need to use your common sense."

As jurors weigh the testimony of forensic experts, family members, medical professionals — and a softly-spoken nine-year-old girl — they will need to determine if a murder plot was the true intent of Erin Patterson's family lunch.

A girl's police interview brings 'truth' into focus in mushroom murder trial

The second week of the Erin Patterson murder trial has seen a cavalcade of crucial witnesses, including the daughter of the accused killer.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Spectrix]

Did Erin tell the truth about anything? Will the jurors believe her claims?

Telling the truth doesn't seem to be her strong suite, and she is not a terribly convincing liar.
But it's possible that she has some other worldly qualities that have simply not been discovered.

(IMO)

 

[SouthAussie]

Did Erin say why she scraped the mushroom paste off the pies for her kids? Was it because they didn't like mushrooms or because she 'thought' it was the likely source of the poisonings? How did she know it was the mushroom and not the beef? Gotcha!

Regardless, it has been stated that toxin from the duxelle would have leached into the beef during the cooking process.

I don't think that we have heard that in testimony (as I mentioned before, not sure how much testimony we will hear about that kind of evidence as the prosecution and defence have both stipulated that Erin used Death Caps in the beef wellingtons).

But it has been stated previously by other experts, as linked back in the threads. Possibly stated by the mushroom expert in the Under Investigation show that is linked (not sure).


ETA: It was also mentioned to Erin by a nurse, as per her trial testimony ...

She says she explained to Erin that if even if the mushrooms had been removed, some of the toxins could have still seeped through to the meat.

Erin Patterson visibly upset as daughter gives evidence at murder trial — as it happened

Medical staff who examined Ms Patterson in the aftermath of a deadly mushroom meal at her home have given evidence to a murder trial jury. Look back at how Thursday's hearing unfolded in our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Officer Dibble]

Yes, I had originally assumed it would be the traditional style (pictured) in which case isolating the mushroom mince/paste/duxelle for herself and children would have been quite difficult and fraught with danger. Much easier for that purpose to make them as individual pasties.

I wonder if she marked the pastry, like bakeries do with pies?

this is exactly what I had envisioned a Beef Wellington to look like =something long that you slice. I had no idea it was made into individual pies