Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[MsMarple]

The first pictures shown to the court​

​

By Judd Boaz​

Here is the first photo from iNaturalist that the defence has shown, purportedly showing a stubble rosegill mushroom.

A screenshot of the iNaturalist page shown to court (iNaturalist)
Dr May notes that the page is tagged with 'Needs ID' at the top, meaning this image by itself is not enough to accurately identify the species of mushroom.

Ms Stafford notes the physical similarities between stubble rosegill and the death cap mushroom.

A second image shown to the court (iNaturalist)
A second image is shown to Dr May, and he says he is not confident that the image is in fact a stubble rosegill and would need further analysis.

Ms Stafford asks if this mushroom grows in Victoria and in particular Gippsland.

Dr May says he's not certain, but would expect the mushroom to be widespread.

 

[katydid23]

The daughter said she had never gone mushroom picking so maybe not a family hobby.

Erin Patterson’s daughter says accused mushroom poisoner was ‘very good’ cook, murder trial hears

Patterson’s son tells jury eye-fillet steak from leftovers of fatal lunch was ‘some of the best meat I’ve ever had’

www.theguardian.com

When they said 'family hobby' I thought more about the adults. Like maybe it was adult siblings or even their parents that may have enjoyed foraging together. If they hiked together as a family then maybe picking mushrooms was a part of it?

 

[drsleuth]

6 minutes ago

Fungi expert says general public struggles to accurately identify mushrooms​

Dr Tom May, a mycologist or a fungi specialist, has returned to the witness box.
He is being cross-examined by defence barrister Sophie Stafford.
Dr May agreed that the general public has a “poor ability to accurately identify mushrooms”.
The court heard he encourages an “apprenticeship” for budding foragers in order for them to be able to accurately and safely identify mushrooms.
He said he is “careful” himself when identifying a mushroom from a photo, given he may not be able to observe certain characteristics of the fungi.
But he added that when out in the field, he could confidently identify a mushroom with the benefit of context.
“I’ll identify it without any qualifications,” he said.
Ms Stafford is now showing Dr May photos of mushrooms on citizen science website iNaturalist, namely a death cap mushroom look-alike, a stubble rosegill.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-updates-from-morwell-court/live-coverage/2b9110af7759d006a800bf76bb848d28?amp

 

[drsleuth]

8 minutes ago

Fungi expert continues evidence in witness box

Adriana Mageros
Mycologist Tom May, a fungi expert, is continuing his testimony on Wednesday under cross-examination by defence lawyer Sophie Stafford.
Dr May was first asked about evidence he gave in court on Tuesday about distinctive features of a death cap mushroom, or as it is known by its scientific name – amanita phalloides.
Death caps are generally greenish, yellowish, white or a pale brown colour, the court heard.
Other typical features include white spores, gills – called lamellae – and an annulus, which is a ring on the stalk of the mushroom.
Dr May agreed he would be looking for “all of those features to be present” when identifying a death cap mushroom.

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/crime/erin-pattersons-murder-trial-more-witnesses-to-testify-as-alleged-mushroom-poisoning-case-continues-in-victoria/live-coverage/b5424642f9d69ad5701e86b34f1616f9

 

[Montrealaise]

1m ago10.48 AEST
The defence is continuing their cross-examination of Dr Thomas May, a mycologist or scientist specialising in fungi.

Erin Patterson’s defence lawyer, Sophie Stafford, is cross-examining May.

Under cross-examination, May agrees he has made conclusions in articles that the general public has a poor ability to identify mushrooms.

He also agrees there have been several incidents of misidentification of mushrooms.

“Accordingly, you encourage something you’ve likened to an apprenticeship, which takes a long time to accurately identify mushrooms in the wild,” Stafford says.

“That is correct,” says May.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 11 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

So the defense strategy is to allege that Erin Patterson made an honest mistake, that she was foraging for mushrooms and accidentally mistook poisonous death cap mushrooms for edible ones.

Of course, that doesn't explain why she was the only person at the lunch who didn't get sick. I'm curious how the defense will explain that one.

 

[Detechtive]

So the defense strategy is to allege that Erin Patterson made an honest mistake, that she was foraging for mushrooms and accidentally mistook poisonous death cap mushrooms for edible ones.

Of course, that doesn't explain why she was the only person at the lunch who didn't get sick. I'm curious how the defense will explain that one.

It also doesn't explain why she lured them there with a fake cancer diagnosis or wiped her phone, etc, etc.

 

[drsleuth]

1m ago02.18 BST
Lawyer Sophie Stafford is taking Dr Thomas May through screenshots of mushroom posts from the citizen science website iNaturalist.

She begins showing May photos of what are labelled stubble rosegill mushrooms on the website. May says he cannot confirm the first and second photo is a stubble rosegill based on the image.

May says the stubble rosegill is not on the list of toxic mushrooms he is aware of. He says he would expect the species to be “quite widespread” in Victoria.

The next mushroom is labelled oudemansiella gigaspora.. The photos shows the cap and stem of the mushroom. May says he cannot identify it from the photo.

He says he has identified over 30,000 photos from iNaturalist but will never identify a mushroom where the “underside” or the gills are unable to be seen.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 11 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[MsMarple]

Defence's mushroom exercise continues​

By Judd Boaz​

Another picture of a mushroom is shown, and the defence once again draws parallels between its physical appearance and a death cap mushroom.

Ms Stafford calls attention to the brown cap and the white gills.

The seventh image presented to Dr May (iNaturalist)
Ms Stafford asks if these mushrooms are toxic or not.

"I'm not aware of any cases of human ingestion associated with symptoms," Dr May says.

The exercise continues with the genus armillaria or honey mushroom.

The eighth image presented to Dr May (iNaturalist)
The defence's line of questioning continues as it has for 15 minutes, pointing out the physical similarities between this mushroom and death cap mushrooms.

Dr May confirms that this mushroom would also grow in Gippsland.

He says that the Victorian variant of these mushrooms is very bitter and unlikely to be eaten.

 

[drsleuth]

5m ago11.20 AEST
Lawyer Sophie Stafford asks Dr Thomas May about a map of Gippsland from the iNaturalist website, showing scattered red dots.

May says these marks are reported mushroom sightings. He agrees some may be “research-grade” observations and others are unverified observations.

Under cross-examination, May agrees the oudemansiella gigaspora mushroom has similar visual features to the death cap including a smooth cap and white gills.

He agrees he is not aware of it being toxic to humans.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 11 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[drsleuth]

So the defense strategy is to allege that Erin Patterson made an honest mistake, that she was foraging for mushrooms and accidentally mistook poisonous death cap mushrooms for edible ones.

Of course, that doesn't explain why she was the only person at the lunch who didn't get sick. I'm curious how the defense will explain that one.

It also doesn't explain why she lured them there with a fake cancer diagnosis or wiped her phone, etc, etc.

The defense is trying to put seeds of reasonable doubt into the jurors minds ( not that I think it will work IMO )

 

[brisbanemum]

So the defense strategy is to allege that Erin Patterson made an honest mistake, that she was foraging for mushrooms and accidentally mistook poisonous death cap mushrooms for edible ones.

Of course, that doesn't explain why she was the only person at the lunch who didn't get sick. I'm curious how the defense will explain that one.

The thing is that the defense don’t actually have to explain anything. All they need to do is create enough reasonable doubt in the jurors minds. If just one juror thinks it’s possible she accidentally foraged death caps, for example, that could result in a not guilty verdict. It’s up to the prosecution to “explain” (prove) their case.

As an aside, I very much doubt we will see EP take the stand to give evidence, but time will tell.

 

[drsleuth]

Defence quizzes mushroom expert on death cap look-a-likes​

The defence is quizzing mycologist Thomas May on death cap mushroom look-a-likes.

The court earlier heard that one common look-a-like of the death cap mushroom is a stubble rosegill.

Under cross-examination, the defence showed May photos of stubble rosegills posted on iNaturalist.

He confirmed one photo appeared to be a stubble rosegill, but noted a second photo, purportedly of the same mushroom, had different features, which suggests it may have been misidentified.

The defence asked May if the stubble rosegill was known to be edible, with the mycologist responding that he doesn’t have specific information on that, but he believes it is.

Asked whether the stubble rosegill grows around Victoria’s Gippsland region, May said he believes that is the case.

May was then shown photos of a oudemansiella gigaspora.

Under questioning by the defence, May confirmed the oudemansiella gigaspora does have overlapping features to the death cap - such as a brown cap and white gills - and also grows in the Gippsland region.

Next, the defence showed May photos of honey mushrooms and asked if it, too, had similarities to the death cap - such as a brown cap and white gills.

May said the genus is quite large and he does not believe all honey mushrooms have white gills.

Asked whether they grow in the Gippsland region, May said he understands some honey mushrooms do, but the variation found in Australia is typically bitter and not one he would expect local foragers would seek out.

The defence then showed May photos of a shaggy parasol, which is known to grow around Victoria’s Gippsland region.

The defence asked whether it was known to be toxic, with May saying it was one the Victorian poisons centre encounters reports of often, as it is known to cause stomach upset if eaten.
By Tita Smith

Patterson’s hospital tests indicate she did have diarrhoea, expert says

Erin Patterson is accused of killing three people with poisonous death cap mushrooms.

7news.com.au

 

[MsMarple]

The defense is trying to put seeds of reasonable doubt into the jurors minds ( not that I think it will work IMO )

It also wouldn’t surprise me if the defense pulls an argument that being a liar doesn’t mean his client is a murderer. Otherwise how the heck are they going to explain away the mountain of lies? JMO

 

[MsMarple]

More than 30 minutes of mushroom analysis​

By Judd Boaz​

It's now been more than half-an-hour of the defence presenting mushrooms that grow in Victoria, and asking Dr May about them.

The questioning follows a similar pattern, asking Dr May if they grow in Gippsland, if they share similar features to a death cap and whether they are toxic or not.

The defence presents purported images of the shaggy parasol, which Dr May says is toxic.

"This is one of the mushrooms that — through the work of the Victorian Poisons Information Centre — we are aware is toxic to humans," Dr May says.

The buttery collybia mushroom is then shown to Dr May, which he says does not grow in Victoria, despite alleged observations on iNaturalist.

The questioning continues.

 

[katydid23]

Would EP be facing any criminal charges if the police believed she had innocently made a mistake with these mushrooms? Some sort of negligence?

I think that would depend upon the circumstances. If she told her luncheon guests that she is serving them some wonderful mushrooms that she foraged herself, then maybe she would be less culpable, as it would be a mutual decision.

But apparently she kept that a secret. She did not give them a chance to decide to take that risk or not.

And they didn't even get the benefit of tasting fresh wild mushrooms. They were served dehydrated powdered mushrooms, so what's the benefit of them being foraged fresh from the forest?

It seems like quite a risk with little benefit.

(I know she would have had to admitted to foraging immediately etc, lots would have to be different)

Yes, it would have to be a very different presentation. First of all, she'd have to eat them herself. It's VERY suspicious that she didn't.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

And Simon said that she was highly intelligent...

I came here to say basically what Detechtive said before me.

You can be book smart and socially and emotionally inept. You can also be an intelligent psychopath without empathy , etc

I find the method of murder so chilling because it’s such a passive aggressive vindictive crime. I imagine she thought she was going to outsmart everyone.

Every day it seems to get worse for her…

Yep, book smarts and street smarts do not have to go hand in hand. One can be highly intelligent in the intellectual sense, but very naive in the ways of the world, or common sense type scenarios. It's quite fascinating to me, you would think the intelligence would filter through all your thoughts and decisions but apparently not.

 

[drsleuth]

I hope we don't just hear about mushrooms all day..............

 

[Ellery84]

The thing is that the defense don’t actually have to explain anything. All they need to do is create enough reasonable doubt in the jurors minds. If just one juror thinks it’s possible she accidentally foraged death caps, for example, that could result in a not guilty verdict. It’s up to the prosecution to “explain” (prove) their case.

As an aside, I very much doubt we will see EP take the stand to give evidence, but time will tell.

I can imagine Erin may want to get up and defend herself, but her defence team may strongly recommend that she does not.

I don’t think her public statements about the case have gone very well thus far, nor have they done her any favours. IMO

 

[MsMarple]

Defence asks hypothetical question of mushroom expert​

By Judd Boaz​

A discussion begins over the buttery collybia mushroom, which Dr May mentioned is highly unlikely to grow in Victoria.

Ms Stafford, as she has about a dozen times already, asks that if it were to grow in Victoria, what similarities it would have to a death cap mushroom.

"There's a few hypotheticals in there that I'm struggling to disentangle," Dr May says.

Dr May appears very reluctant to say the mushroom could be found in Victoria, but concedes it could theoretically be found in Victoria.

The similarities to death cap and non-toxicity of the buttery collybia are pointed out, and we move on to yet another mushroom.

 

[katydid23]

So the defense strategy is to allege that Erin Patterson made an honest mistake, that she was foraging for mushrooms and accidentally mistook poisonous death cap mushrooms for edible ones.

Of course, that doesn't explain why she was the only person at the lunch who didn't get sick. I'm curious how the defense will explain that one.

It also doesn't explain why, if she believed them to be safe mushrooms, why she didn't proudly tell her guests about them. 'Hey guys, I'm serving you some amazing mushrooms foraged from our local forest. Yum. '