Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[Eloise]

I wonder whether Erin's lawyers told her that her defence is hopeless. They should have advised her to plead guilty and avoid a trial.

This would have resulted in a lighter sentence. However for these crimes a "lighter" sentence may effectively still be the rest of her life.

Her lawyers are the only winners here.

They might have done so. But the choice is always hers.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Well, they will say the prosecution hasn't proven their case and move for an aquittal. It seems to be a standard move.

But when the judge denies that, I imagine they will have at least a specialist who says how hard it is to identify a Death Cap, maybe a specialist who says the toxins in each Death Cap are variable, maybe a psychiatrist who says a person can think they have cancer and not actually have it, maybe a specialist that will say what a person's traumatic panic reaction could be.

Because we aren't going to know what her motive was, I feel that it will be easier for her defence to get an acquittal for her, despite the evidence.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I think they must have because EP said that Simon asked her if she used her dehydrator to kill his family----so he must have been referring to mushrooms, right? I think so...

Do you think that Erin made that up? Maybe she said that Simon said that so that she can later say that it caused her to panic, leading her to dump the food hydrator at the tip?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

According to the above testimony, Simon returned home from the hospital Sunday night, actually Monday at 2:30 am. He knew already that all 4 family members were very ill.

Monday morning by 7 am, Erin called him to say she felt unwell herself.


Simon Patterson tells court of 'strained' relationship with alleged mushroom killer

[Monday morning at 7 AM she called Simon?]

Mr Patterson says he received a call at 7am the next morning from Erin Patterson, who wanted to talk.
He says Ms Patterson told him of further diarrhoea and asked him to take her to the hospital.
Mr Patterson says he declined and told her to get an ambulance instead.
[So the doctors tried to get Erin to bring her children in to be examined, but she said NO, I don't want to stress them out. Eventually Simon went and picked them up himself.]


HERE IS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR:

The questioning has resumed detailing the day after the lunch, when Mr Patterson picked up his children from school to bring them to hospital for tests and asked them about what they had eaten.

The children responded that they had eaten steak, green beans and mashed potato, but no mushrooms.

Mr Patterson confirms his children were found not to be ill at Monash, but were kept overnight.

He tells the court that while the children were being admitted to hospital, they saw Erin being brought into the hospital on a trolley.

He says there was no sign of vomiting or diarrhoea from Ms Patterson when he saw her.

Mr Patterson says one of his children raised the topic of mushrooms in the hospital.

He says during their time in hospital Erin had mentioned conducting a blind taste test with mushroom-infused muffins with her children, using a dehydrator.

"It felt like news to me that she dehydrated food," Mr Patterson says.

He tells the court he was not aware that Erin owned a dehydrator.


SO BY MONDAY, 2 days later, the doctors were already focusing in on possibility of mushroom poisoning, and asked the kids if they had eaten mushrooms at home.

So how many days later did she finally admit she had foraged?

Maybe Erin told Simon about the blind test she did putting dried mushrooms in her kids muffins, as if to say, well if there was anything wrong with the. mushrooms the kids would have got sick back then?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Gee that's a good question!

It would be an extremely strange situation if that happened, wouldn't it!

The jury (of 12) find her guilty (with a majority verdict of 11), of the attempted murder of Ian but are unable to find her guilty of murdering Gail, Heather and Don due to not being unanimous (as 12).

My feeling is, since all the victims were at the same lunch, the jury will be considering the 4 separate verdicts the same. So, there probably wouldn't be a 'not guilty' verdict for the murder of Don but a 'guilty' verdict for the murder of Gail, for example. Common sense would say that the same would apply to the attempted murder of Ian.

I don't think the jury would ever get to that strange predicament, even though the way I read the rules, it's technically possible.

MOO

JURIES ACT 2000 - SECT 46 Failure to reach unanimous verdict in criminal trials

classic.austlii.edu.au

This reminds me of the Carol Clay Russel Hill case, where the perpetrator Greg Lynn was only charged with the murder of Carol...

 

[Detechtive]

Do you think that Erin made that up? Maybe she said that Simon said that so that she can later say that it caused her to panic, leading her to dump the food hydrator at the tip?

I think she did this as a form of victim blaming. Trying to blame him for her actions. He's "nasty" remember? IMO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I think she did this as a form of victim blaming. Trying to blame him for her actions. He's "nasty" remember? IMO

Yes, most likely.

 

[Detechtive]

This reminds me of the Carol Clay Russel Hill case, where the perpetrator Greg Lynn was only charged with the murder of Carol...

I think that's very different because his defence argued a very plausible accidental scenario, IMO.
There didn't seem to be planning involved in that matter - it looked impulsive and spur of the moment.

Here, we have weeks of planning and conniving, and then post-poisoning covert hiding behaviours.

 

[Eloise]

Do you think that Erin made that up? Maybe she said that Simon said that so that she can later say that it caused her to panic, leading her to dump the food hydrator at the tip?

Yep. Panic.
Ms Patterson's defence team says it was a "terrible accident", and that she lied to police and disposed of evidence because she "panicked" after unintentionally serving poison to family members she loved.

Do people who accidentally poison their loved ones usually panic to the point of not telling treating medical professionals what was in the meal? Willing to let them think it was food poisoning (usually caused by a lack of food safety standards, surely that's also pretty embarrassing) but not anything else like 'oh could the foraged mushies have been dodgy'? Which I think would be the more typical response in an accident. Just my thoughts

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Yep. Panic.
Ms Patterson's defence team says it was a "terrible accident", and that she lied to police and disposed of evidence because she "panicked" after unintentionally serving poison to family members she loved.

Do people who accidentally poison their loved ones usually panic to the point of not telling treating medical professionals what was in the meal? Willing to let them think it was food poisoning (usually caused by a lack of food safety standards, surely that's also pretty embarrassing) but not anything else like 'oh could the foraged mushies have been dodgy'? Which I think would be the more typical response in an accident. Just my thoughts

 

[Detechtive]

Yep. Panic.
Ms Patterson's defence team says it was a "terrible accident", and that she lied to police and disposed of evidence because she "panicked" after unintentionally serving poison to family members she loved.

Do people who accidentally poison their loved ones usually panic to the point of not telling treating medical professionals what was in the meal? Willing to let them think it was food poisoning (usually caused by a lack of food safety standards, surely that's also pretty embarrassing) but not anything else like 'oh could the foraged mushies have been dodgy'? Which I think would be the more typical response in an accident. Just my thoughts

That's a really good point.

She wasn't panicking because they were sick, obviously. She didn't deny making the meal, or making them all sick, per se. She only lied about the origins of ONE part of the meal, which were the Death Cap mushrooms. (And also the reason for gathering for the meal).

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Yep. Panic.
Ms Patterson's defence team says it was a "terrible accident", and that she lied to police and disposed of evidence because she "panicked" after unintentionally serving poison to family members she loved.

Do people who accidentally poison their loved ones usually panic to the point of not telling treating medical professionals what was in the meal? Willing to let them think it was food poisoning (usually caused by a lack of food safety standards, surely that's also pretty embarrassing) but not anything else like 'oh could the foraged mushies have been dodgy'? Which I think would be the more typical response in an accident. Just my thoughts

And if as she later said, she bought the dried mushrooms from an Asian grocer, why would she herself panic? It would be the fault of the grocers, would it not?

 

[Detechtive]

And if as she later said, she bought the dried mushrooms from an Asian grocer, why would she herself panic? It would be the fault of the grocers, would it not?

Exactly!

On more thought, it seems to me that she hid the Death Cap "powder" in the duxelle and also used regular mushrooms for the duxelle to give the appearance of mushrooms because the Death Cap powder didn't resemble mushrooms. I don't believe she rehydrated The Death Caps and added them in as chopped mushrooms. I believe they were powdered immediately after drying and were put in a jar for the future meal.

So when the health department were analysing the food scraps, they would have seen white mushrooms from Woolworths, and been confused because there wasn't any visible death caps.

Maybe she didn't anticipate them finding Death Cap DNA in the meal...

 

[MsMarple]

Do you think that Erin made that up? Maybe she said that Simon said that so that she can later say that it caused her to panic, leading her to dump the food hydrator at the tip?

IMO that’s exactly what she did. From her released statement:

"I am hoping this statement might help in some way. I believe if people understood the background more, they would not be so quick to rush to judgement," Ms Patterson wrote in a statement for the police obtained by the ABC.

"I am now wanting to clear up the record because I have become extremely stressed and overwhelmed by the deaths of my loved ones," she said.
…
According to the statement, the family were at the hospital and Ms Patterson was "discussing the food hydrator" with her children.
'Is that what you used to poison them?' Ms Patterson's estranged husband Simon Patterson reportedly asked.

Worried she might lose custody of their children, Ms Patterson said she decided to dispose of the kitchen appliance.

Leongatha mushroom death suspect Erin Patterson tells her side of the story

Ms Patterson said beef Wellington was the served at the fatal lunch.

www.canberratimes.com.au

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Exactly!

On more thought, it seems to me that she hid the Death Cap "powder" in the duxelle and also used regular mushrooms for the duxelle to give the appearance of mushrooms because the Death Cap powder didn't resemble mushrooms. I don't believe she rehydrated The Death Caps and added them in as chopped mushrooms. I believe they were powdered immediately after drying and were put in a jar for the future meal.

So when the health department were analysing the food scraps, they would have seen white mushrooms from Woolworths, and been confused because there wasn't any visible death caps.

Maybe she didn't anticipate them finding Death Cap DNA in the meal...

 

[Deleted member 363451]

IMO that’s exactly what she did. From her released statement:

"I am hoping this statement might help in some way. I believe if people understood the background more, they would not be so quick to rush to judgement," Ms Patterson wrote in a statement for the police obtained by the ABC.

"I am now wanting to clear up the record because I have become extremely stressed and overwhelmed by the deaths of my loved ones," she said.
…
According to the statement, the family were at the hospital and Ms Patterson was "discussing the food hydrator" with her children.
'Is that what you used to poison them?' Ms Patterson's estranged husband Simon Patterson reportedly asked.

Worried she might lose custody of their children, Ms Patterson said she decided to dispose of the kitchen appliance.

Leongatha mushroom death suspect Erin Patterson tells her side of the story

Ms Patterson said beef Wellington was the served at the fatal lunch.

www.canberratimes.com.au

She really thought she was so smart, didn't she? Sly and sneaky, yet not what I would call intelligent.

 

[MrJ]

Panic because you accidentally poisoned loved ones and would be willing to do anything to help them recover by giving timely information to the doctors and nurses looking after them vs panicking because there is an investigation by health authorities making you dispose of the dehydrator used and wiping phone data are very different things. Allegedly and jmo

 

[Bats]

Yes, I think we have. I think if you re-read this post by @drsleuth (below) you will see the delays in testing and treatment. Dr Morgan had to work out by herself that the condition of the patients could be mushroom poisoning. A full 12 hours after their hospital admittance.

Gail was thought to have food poisoning, so vital treatment was withheld until they saw her liver deteriorating.

Minutes and hours count when you are fighting a poison. imo

Thanks @SouthAussie !

I guess what I'm saying is...
If it was an accidental poisoning, the doctors firstly need to work out what is wrong with the patients. Pretty quickly they're asking what have these people eaten? Equally as quickly, they narrow the lunch down as a possible cause for their illness.

If they received accurate information about the ingredients of the lunch soon after working out that the lunch was the cause, they still don't know if the patients have death cap poisoning until the left overs are tested. So, regardless of whether Erin lied or not, the doctors are still dealing with the same scenario aren't they?
Or is there evidence that says if the doctors knew the mushrooms were foraged they would have quickly administered an antidote, whether or not they knew the mushrooms were death caps?

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks @SouthAussie !

I guess what I'm saying is...
If it was an accidental poisoning, the doctors firstly need to work out what is wrong with the patients. Pretty quickly they're asking what have these people eaten? Equally as quickly, they narrow the lunch down as a possible cause for their illness.

If they received accurate information about the ingredients of the lunch soon after working out that the lunch was the cause, they still don't know if the patients have death cap poisoning until the left overs are tested. So, regardless of whether Erin lied or not, the doctors are still dealing with the same scenario aren't they?
Or is there evidence that says if the doctors knew the mushrooms were foraged they would have quickly administered an antidote, whether or not they knew the mushrooms were death caps?

I think that they could see Don had liver damage, and they would have erred on the side of caution by giving Gail (and Heather?) the correct medications as soon as they could - if they knew that foraged mushrooms were involved.

But they were never given that choice, were they? Crucial information that could have sped up the treatments. Sped it up by 12 hours, at least.

Remembering that Don ate 1½ portions of the beef wellington. So his liver damage showed up first. He was much sicker, right away.

Ian had a fighting chance, and succeeded in living. Gail and Heather might have had the same fighting chance if they were treated accordingly. Their body weight was likely less than Ian's, so their bodies were shutting down by the time they received the correct medications.

I truly think (and hope) this is taken into consideration by the jury.

imo

 

[katydid23]

Do you think that Erin made that up? Maybe she said that Simon said that so that she can later say that it caused her to panic, leading her to dump the food hydrator at the tip?

Yes, I think she made that specific accusation up, so she could use it as an excuse for tipping the dehydrator.

But I did get confirmation that the doctors were already diagnosing 'SUSPECTED mushroom poisoning' at that time. They had told Ian that early Monday morning. They had made the diagnosis on Sunday evening.

So when Erin made her first appearance at the hospital on Monday, she could have told the truth, the antidotes would have been immediately given, and they could have recovered.