CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[Oriah]

I'd call it the " we are gonna come on your property and we don't care what you lazy azz is smoking or cooking or growing, what we got here is a situation and need to find this missing person, so suck it up & we will give ya a pass" law

LOL I'm writing that in my Webster under the definition of 'sit down, buckle up, and shut the ahem up'!

We love you, sre. :loveyou:

 

[Grainne Dhu]

About private residences; I would hope that police have requested searches of any they think necessary, and that those requests have been honored. If not.....well that would speak for itself, to me.

I agree.

With the culture of leakiness in the US, I suspect that such a refusal would be leaked. So I hope that no such refusal was made.

I just heard of another crime that occurred in Redlands, California (LA area) in 1998. Tristan Jensen was a 14 year old boy who disappeared when he'd gone out skateboarding. His body was found 7 weeks later when city maintenance workers were working on a clog in the sanitary sewer system. They tracked that line upstream and at the origin point of that particular line found Tristan's jawbone, which led to his identification. In just 7 weeks in the sanitary sewer system, his body had been completely skeletonized and disarticulated.

The perp was a 15 year old boy named J.P. Remsen. In his confession, he admitted to killing Tristan and then disposing of the body into the sanitary sewer system at 11 am. In the middle of the day. There were no witnesses. I don't know if it was because no one saw him or if it was that any witness simply didn't remember seeing him after 7 weeks had gone by.

Had it not been for that clog (which occurred about a mile downstream), Tristan's body would have been completely dissolved in another month or two.

That would be one way in which Bob's remains could still be within Placentia but no longer findable.

The case got extensive publicity at the time because when police got a search warrant for the Remsen residence, they discovered that it was stuffed full of explosives. The bomb squads ended up blowing up a lot of it on site because it was just too dangerous to move.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

A mapping system is already underway in OC. But it's for dangerous dogs. How that will be done, I cannot imagine. Can't see the entire article either, to see if there's more info.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/...nstrack=sid:9617407|met:0000300|cat:0|order:2

Gosh, they were already something similar in Iowa City back in the late 80s. Animal control could input a location and a description and the computer would spit back a list of dogs or cats matching that description from within a certain radius. Most of the time it was used to return lost animals to their owners but a few times it was used to solve animal bite cases.

It was pretty crude by today's standards but it let the Iowa City AC rack up impressive statistics for finding lost animals. Somewhere around 80% of all animals reported lost to AC were returned to owners.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Funny, that.

One would think that a search request of private property would be happily granted by owners of property when search is for a missing person, or any evidence of a missing persons' possible location. But here in the US it seems many more people are concerned with their right to refusal.

It's a bit 'big brother'-esk for my taste, but sometimes I sure do wish we had a federal statute akin to California's search and seizure vehicle code http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vc.htm for private land and structures. If you're paying taxes on a vehicle, and you refuse a breathalizer, your vehicle is Cali's.

Sure would save a lot of time and trouble for SAR.

(Excuse my bitter, folks! Just got turned down for a search of private property where a MP is most likely located. We obey the law, but we don't always do it happily.)

In my opinion, a law that would restrict evidence gathering only to the missing person during a search would probably do a lot more good than threatening to take people's homes away from them.

Such a law would also have big huge constitutional problems; vehicle ownership and operation is considered a privilege but land ownership is considered a right (crudely; there's all sorts of exceptions, wrinkles, etc).

At least in Iowa, a lot of times the reason someone refuses access is because they have an interesting potted plant collection on the property. In Iowa, people can and do lose their property, even landlords who had no idea of what the tenants were up to if drugs are found. I can think of at least three cases where permission was granted after the sheriff's department made a quiet under the table deal that they would be blind to anything to be seen on the property except for the missing person.

But we wouldn't want to do anything that might involve admitting the 'war on drugs' is an abject failure and a gross violation of privacy rights, would we?

 

[zwiebel]

There's got to be a happy medium somewhere. England hasn't got it though. The justification for a search warrant for a home seems a lot lower, and a lot of the time they don't seem to be required at all, but it does mean citizens have fewer rights. This probably serves them right, as an awful lot of English people harbor a grudge against human rights for some reason I have never understood.

But the US cases where police seem certain there is strong evidence - or even the body - of a missing person in a home, and can't search it, often for years. That seems incredible to me too.

I think the French legal system may have got it right - from a few cases I have seen police are able to search places quickly, with or without permission. But then.....the mom there who said she lost her little girl, then admitted burying her body but still hasn't provided her location, is expected to serve four months in prison. That seems like a travesty to me.

Still, there are missing person protocols throughout the world now, that just did not exist even 30 years ago, so there is good reason to hope for further improvements!

 

[Grainne Dhu]

There's got to be a happy medium somewhere. England hasn't got it though. The justification for a search warrant for a home seems a lot lower, and a lot of the time they don't seem to be required at all, but it does mean citizens have fewer rights. This probably serves them right, as an awful lot of English people harbor a grudge against human rights for some reason I have never understood.

But the US cases where police seem certain there is strong evidence - or even the body - of a missing person in a home, and can't search it, often for years. That seems incredible to me too.

I think the French legal system may have got it right - from a few cases I have seen police are able to search places quickly, with or without permission. But then.....the mom there who said she lost her little girl, then admitted burying her body but still hasn't provided her location, is expected to serve four months in prison. That seems like a travesty to me.

Still, there are missing person protocols throughout the world now, that just did not exist even 30 years ago, so there is good reason to hope for further improvements!

Keep in mind that the US was founded in the fear of the power of government over the welfare of the individual.

In the US, the standard for searches is probable cause, which is roughly: would a reasonable person under the currently known circumstances believe that the suspicion is probably true? This is a question that in the past has been rife with racism, classism and other -isms, leading to such offences as "driving while black" or "living while poor."

In practice, probable cause is a fairly low bar to clear. Low enough that NYC's stop and frisk policing program under which over half a million pedestrians annually are stopped and frisked for guns and/or contraband may actually be found constitutionally legal. Even though in over 90% of cases, no evidence of wrongdoing is found!!!

If LE thought for years that there was a body being concealed on private property, it is almost certain the local prosecutor would be involved. And if a prosecutor cannot come up with probable cause for a search warrant... well, that means that the evidence cannot be all that strong.

 

[zwiebel]

Oh, look at this.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bryce Laspisa, 19, Castaic, 30 August 2013 - #8

This is the company that got the the rights to run billboards around Placentia. If only there had been a family member asking on Bob's behalf, it could have been his face and still missing status on billboards now.

 

[zwiebel]

I am not begrudging an iota of publicity young Bryce is getting. That young man has his whole life ahead of him and I so hope it is still possible he can be found safe, and get to live it.

I am just so, so sad that Bob has missed out on so much of the help other missing people receive. It is just unfair and a disgrace because there is no reason for it. I know many cases get no publicity at all, but none of what is often present in those cases applies to Bob.

He had no history of running away or wandering off.
He was a respectable member of the community, with membership of several respectable organizations.
He had brought up and provided for three children, all of whom he was still in close contact with.
He'd had stable employment and housing his entire life.
He'd had a single, extremely long-lasting marriage until he was widowed.
He had recently hit the headlines in a way that touched many people's hearts, and would have made them easily approachable when Bob needed public help.
He had physical problems with his knees and eyes that made him vulnerable.
He had a lot of money resources that could have been drawn upon to help find him.
He has two people who have consistently stated how nice Bob is, how worth finding he is.

There are huge, glaring questions to be asked about why people are not searching for Bob. Hopefully, if enough people start asking the question, some people somewhere will feel obliged to provide a decent answer.

 

[zwiebel]

Those two overdue hikers I mentioned upthread on Mnt Baldy have been recovered. Another has also been found near Lake Arrowhead, after five days;
http://www.hanfordsentinel.com/news...cle_92446638-91be-55e4-9312-97ef4b7e5b4b.html

I am really torn because with the lack of searches going on for Bob, the very best hope is that a hiker may find him. But just so, so many seem to go missing themselves in CA. Which drains resources, which otherwise might be used to search for Bob.

I suppose it is never going to be a completely safe pastime, but I wish every hiker could makes sure they carry the basic equipment to maximize their chances of being found in the event of an accident - gps phone, water, food, warm clothing etc.

I really hate to think how many lost ones are still out there, waiting to be found.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Those two overdue hikers I mentioned upthread on Mnt Baldy have been recovered. Another has also been found near Lake Arrowhead, after five days;
http://www.hanfordsentinel.com/news...cle_92446638-91be-55e4-9312-97ef4b7e5b4b.html

I am really torn because with the lack of searches going on for Bob, the very best hope is that a hiker may find him. But just so, so many seem to go missing themselves in CA. Which drains resources, which otherwise might be used to search for Bob.

I suppose it is never going to be a completely safe pastime, but I wish every hiker could makes sure they carry the basic equipment to maximize their chances of being found in the event of an accident - gps phone, water, food, warm clothing etc.

I really hate to think how many lost ones are still out there, waiting to be found.

In my humble opinion, the cause of the dearth of searches for Bob has 0% to do with lack of resources and 100% to do with the unwillingness of those with standing (his family) to cooperate with attempts to find him. They couldn't even be bothered to deal with a Facebook page that had been completely set up and turned over to them.

So far as I can see, hikers are the most likely group of people to find Bob's remains, whether it is a hiker who stumbles across them or a search organised for a hiker who has gone missing.

 

[zwiebel]

Fair point. It doesn't matter how many resources are available, if the right people aren't asking them to be used for Bob.

I wish part of his fortune could be put aside for future searches for him, overseen by a SAR expert. Sigh. I am sure Bob and Georgia had some influential friends and acquaintances, but I fear many of them are passing on as the years go by.

The OC DA's office won't be passing on or closing anytime soon though. Now they've agreed to look at Bob's case, I am hoping it will get under their skin. Even if it cannot be solved now, I am hoping Bob's case will always have a presence there; an itch that just has to be scratched every so often, until the source of the irritation is removed. That'll be the day Bob comes home for me - for those investigators it won't be until someone is brought to justice, I think.

 

[zwiebel]

Sorry, double post.

 

[zwiebel]

There is a picture of the hiker here - he looks in a pretty bad state, though better than I would have been. I always thought lighting a fire would be a good idea, but I suppose in many bits of SoCal, the danger would be the fire gettingout of control and the lost person not being able to outrun it.

The article also has a pretty precise location, if only we had a map to put the information on.

http://www.sbsun.com/general-news/2...a-week-found-after-starting-fire-to-stay-warm

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Fair point. It doesn't matter how many resources are available, if the right people aren't asking them to be used for Bob.

I wish part of his fortune could be put aside for future searches for him, overseen by a SAR expert. Sigh. I am sure Bob and Georgia had some influential friends and acquaintances, but I fear many of them are passing on as the years go by.

The OC DA's office won't be passing on or closing anytime soon though. Now they've agreed to look at Bob's case, I am hoping it will get under their skin. Even if it cannot be solved now, I am hoping Bob's case will always have a presence there; an itch that just has to be scratched every so often, until the source of the irritation is removed. That'll be the day Bob comes home for me - for those investigators it won't be until someone is brought to justice, I think.

If there were someone willing to invest the extreme amounts of time, mental and emotional energy into organising searches for Bob, I think it could be done. Even if that person did not have the ordinary sorts of social standing in the matter. Just treat Bob as someone who had no close relatives to speak up for him. All that would be needed for someone to acquire social standing would be for Fontelle to say "I am so grateful to my friend, So-and-so, who has volunteered to organise searches for Bob."

The problem with this, though, is pretty obvious: it is a huge investment of time and resources to take on such a task. This is not a burden that anyone can be singled out to bear; it must be willingly assumed.

With the characters involved and their history, whoever might step up to take on the burden of organising would do very well to arrange things so that they do not touch one red penny of money raised on Bob's behalf. Parts of the burden could be assumed by others, though. For instance, any fundraising really should be handled via a lawyer and it might well be possible to find a member of the California bar to take those specific duties on pro bono. Likewise it may be possible to find a CPA to donate time to do the accounting.

But the organiser would need to be someone to make appeals, write thank you notes and do the 1001 organisational tasks that go into a large scale search. They would have to do it without any expectation of remuneration because, well, frankly, if any of Bob's descendants are qualified to inherit his estate my opinion is that they won't disburse a penny to such expenses.

Tangentially: I believe that one thing that is keeping the people who know or have figured out what probably happened from speaking with police is the fact that if they are convicted of any crime having to do with Bob's disappearance it would disqualify them under California law from inheriting. I predict there will be no movement in the race to the DA until it looks to them as if they will have more to lose by remaining silent.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

There is a picture of the hiker here - he looks in a pretty bad state, though better than I would have been. I always thought lighting a fire would be a good idea, but I suppose in many bits of SoCal, the danger would be the fire gettingout of control and the lost person not being able to outrun it.

The article also has a pretty precise location, if only we had a map to put the information on.

http://www.sbsun.com/general-news/2...a-week-found-after-starting-fire-to-stay-warm

In the article you linked, it says that is exactly what happened. He lit the fire for warmth and it got out of control. Firefighters put it out before it burned a huge area but that was a risky thing to do.

The article also said he appeared to be quite dehydrated and in SoCal, that's a major hazard because there isn't much running water to be found and the air itself is dry, so it sucks the moisture right out of your skin. When I've visited desert areas, I could feel the tingle as moisture evaporated out of my skin.

The problem with dehydration is that one of the very first things it does is cause weakness and debilitation. The blood becomes thicker, so the heart has to work harder to pump it throughout the body and the reduced blood flow means that it takes less physical effort to get out of breath than usual.

 

[zwiebel]

I saw somewhere - maybe a post by Oriah? - that to hydrate properly for walking, it's necessary to drink the day before the trip. I wonder if it is even possible to carry sufficient water supplies for more than two days, in those conditions.

Seeing that hiker makes me think it is possible that someone just pushed Bob out of a vehicle in the middle of nowhere. He would never have managed to walk out. I hate to think that might have happened to him though.

 

[sreshowtime]

tap tap Zwie ....drink WATER the day before lol...not just drink...sorry I am half giddy, & overwhelmed here
rather be map staring

 

[shadowinlaguna]

interested to see what you 'new' folks theorize ... your 'opinions'

I think someone in the family needed the money and had no idea he was so well off. I think there is a reason that he didn't share what he was worth to them. I also think the barber is shady. I could see him telling them he needed the money back.

 

[zwiebel]

You may laugh. I don't think I have ever consumed a glass of just water in my entire life. Does it really come without tea?

 

[zwiebel]

Welcome, shadowinlaguna!