Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[Kubirai]

It is still illegal if that person doesn’t have their PAL, no matter how responsible they are. The majority of PAL owners know the rules of law and abide by them. I suppose that’s one reason people are trying to figure out about the origin of the firearms said to be used by Kam and Bryer.

I am certain that RCMP is going to publish the source of both guns. If they were from relatives or stolen or purchased illegally.

 

[Optics]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam, apologies if repeating a topic...

Whether or not the guy in the gas station video looks like Kam. I find the similarities very uncanny (left hand kinda in pocket that doesn't move, skin tone/hair tone, black pants, color of t-shirt and length of t-shirt sleeves). The video moves SO fast and the details/lighting aren't good but I still find quite a similarity which I think has been discussed already.

I still feel like the couple encountered/interacted with B&S somewhere and sometime before the murders and it wasn't totally random of them driving by a parked van, JMO.

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I have to say that originally I did not think it was him right up this week, I do have to say the hand in the pocket which Kam never removed in the video, is similar to his action. hmmm

 

[sandbar]

I am certain that RCMP is going to publish the source of both guns. If they were from relatives or stolen or purchased illegally.

Sadly..
‘Yet to be determined’ what public will find out about northern B.C. murders, RCMP say | The Star
Maybe they're afraid of copycats?

 

[Gina20]

I can get beyond somebody lending a gun to another adult who’s spending time in remote areas if that person had prior knowledge about gun safety, who’s known to be totally responsible and clearly possesses sound judgement. But somebody giving a gun to a 18 and 19 travelling together who have spent years immersed in playing violent video games pretending to be killers - no way! What would they have needed a gun for anyway, as they were supposed to be travelling directly to Whitehorse looking for work?

I think we’ll learn the guns were either stolen or purchased illegally.

They might have stolen them from a locked gun cabinet in one of their homes.

 

[sandbar]

I have to say that originally I did not think it was him right up this week, I do have to say the hand in the pocket which Kam never removed in the video, is similar to his action. hmmm

The facial hairline isn't right, and Kam has a mole on his face that the guy crossing the screen doesn't. I've gone over that footage a LOT. Even the grainy, unfocused graphic on the guy's t-shirt could work, but I don't think it's KM.

I still think C&L crossed paths with K&B somewhere prior to the murder though...

 

[otto]

I think that's taking Alan S's quote out of context in a significant way. AS was using that example to show how no one bothered to care much about BS. That there was no dad to teach him (or buy him one).

There's a window of opportunity for teaching such things (and jump rope and a bunch of other things). It's much harder to learn to ride a bike at, say, 15. And who would loan their own bike to BS for him to drop on the ground as he's learning? Many people are terrible teachers (of bike riding).

So, BS may well have wanted to be mobile, to ride a bike and roam and to drive a car. But never got the opportunity.

Bryer's father did indeed admit that he could not be bothered to take any responsibility for Bryer - did not even take the time to put him on a bike with training wheels.

However, that has nothing to do with Bryer being a murderer. Bryer was an adult and he could have done anything he wanted with his life. He choose murder and suicide. The same is true of Kam. He probably did learn to ride a bike, and he too choose murder and suicide.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

AS is a parent who has lost his son. By WS standards he is still considered a victim. I think many will agree that he was not a model parent but his lack of perfect parenting techniques does not give anyone licence to rip him to shreds and blame him for what his son is accused of doing.

Victim blaming is not allowed. Any further inferences or insinuations that AS is somehow responsible for his son's behaviour will be met with a permanent thread ban.

 

[10ofRods]

I personally don't think so as I think it likely would have been linked by now. However I do think there was some kind of trigger. I posted some articles stating that in almost all sudden/mass killings, there is some sort of event that happens, usually weeks or months before, that pushes the person over the edge. Something like a job or relationship loss. There is some evidence that Bryer didn't actually graduate and just pretended to, it's possible that one or both of them got fired from Walmart, and people also speculated that one or both of them may have been on the verge of getting kicked out of their home and being homeless...so I wonder if the trigger had something to do with that. I don't think they were in a good mindset when they left Port Alberni and the abruptness may have had more to do with feeling like they reached the limit of what they could take from their hometown and families, and just wanting to get as far away as possible with no clear plan, acting based on rage and depression. JMO.

This is a very interesting and illuminating topic. If we are interested in prediction and prevention (and some of us are), it's great to explore.

It's possible Bryer didn't actually graduate. However, somehow, I doubt that Grandma would have had major consequences for him, for that. Perhaps both boys were being pushed in the direction of employment (as I posted earlier, many families do in fact find ways of "making" their kids launch, sooner or later). Kam was out of high school for what, a year? With no employment? Lots of parents would be annoyed, especially if all the time was spent playing games and none of the time was spent running the household. An adult child living in a house without contributing income should (in the views of many) being taking on virtually all the housework. Just saying.

I can surely imagine a scenario in which getting "kicked out" of the house meant "Here, you can have this truck and camper." Because that's what I see in my own neighborhood. Middle class/working class people. More than once when my daughters were in high school, they asked if a friend could pitch a tent in the backyard (nope) or park their car or van alongside our house (two nights only - that's what the local ordinance says and really, no one is supposed to sleep inside).

Just a month ago, on nextdoor, a neighbor reported that a young adult had set up a tent in their backyard, in an area behind a couple of trees. They figured he'd been there for a while and they hadn't noticed. They took it down and tossed it over the fence (they were not pleased), along with a yoga mat and a sleeping bag. They live not far from a park where restrooms open at 8 am. So yeah, some kids get kicked out and try camping.

The amount of high stress interaction that occurs right before the kid is finally "kicked out" can be major. It sometimes results in complete rifts between parents and offspring that last for years - or forever.

 

[Optics]

Oh I don't think they were completely helpless. I just think if you've always lived at home, as they seemed to have, means you're not going to necessarily have the common sense of someone who has had to live on their own. Living on your own independent of family means someone isn't always there to bail you out and you have to engineer your own solutions. I don't know that they'd ever been in that situation beyond this trip, and that obviously didn't end well for multiple people. I don't consider the camping trips they did on their own anything like living on their own.

I agree with you that Kam was being sarcastic about the "joyride" he claims his parents told him to go on. It actually shows a sliver of wit and personality.

I actually interpret that comment from Kam as almost sarcastically mocking his parents too.

 

[Arizona 123]

This statement from the RCMP always makes me go back to read again. "It is not clear at this point whether Fowler and Deese were targeted or attacked at random, or whether they were killed inside or outside of their vehicle. Police say they were shot where they were found." Here’s what we know about the 3 dead in northern B.C. and the suspects It can be interpreted as literal -that is, exactly where C and L were precisely found - on the ground together, a short distance apart. Or, it could also mean they were shot around/by the side of the van, in which case they would have been moved /dragged to the positions they were found in. Interested to see what RCMP says about this in their report- it points so much to motive (e. g. an assassination or unplanned - panic response by killers). RCMP should have evidence to support one or the other.

Thank you for this. It's the first I've seen of there being 6 "shell casings" found at the van.

Given that, *IF* the tiny orange cones at the Dease Lake murder scene were also "shell casings", 9 of them, this indicates to me that the weapons might not be shotguns as I'd suspected. That level of fire sounds more like handguns to me. The fact "shell casings" were found also tells us that the weapons were not revolvers (unless they reloaded on scene and tossed plus scattered their brass).
So, 2 ACP type semi-auto handguns is my current guess as to the weaponry used. Assuming, of course, the same weaponry was used in all three murders (they may have had more than 2 guns).

 

[Gina20]

"We’re the opposite, where we want to reduce the amount of the equipment used, work with nature, let the cows do the work. Intensive agriculture is perceived as being “real agriculture". The difficulty with that is in the agricultural community you’ll be ostracised for doing things like we do."

Spirit View Ranch: Caterer talks to beef farmers

I have had thoughts that perhaps the van itself or the ranch was targeted due to previous owners, or whatever. I've even wondered if LD stopped to admire some bison at a ranch on his way north, and was followed.

The RCMP have stated that none of the victims were targeted, and none of the victims knew BS and KM. They didn't say if any of the victims knew each other, however casually.

There's still that nagging question of the unsolved double murder of two German tourists near Chetwynd in 1983.

And there was the attempted abduction of a flagger this month on the road between Hudson's Hope and Fort Saint John.

Until we hear more, I guess I will have doubts. This puzzle is nothing but missing pieces.

 

[scrappinkat]

Thank you for this. It's the first I've seen of there being 6 "shell casings" found at the van.

I can’t find mention of that anywhere? Do you have a link or ??

 

[Link Haze]

Yes and sometimes they get them through theft. And if they had one gun and murdered someone with it and the murder victim had a gun, well, then they have two guns. I don't know why you are so offended by that it was considered as a possibility. Owning a gun does not make someone less of a victim if they are murdered.

Sorry, I don't agree with this scenario. I think they obtained guns before the road trip with the specific intent to use them.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I can get beyond somebody lending a gun to another adult who’s spending time in remote areas if that person had prior knowledge about gun safety, who’s known to be totally responsible and clearly possesses sound judgement. But somebody giving a gun to a 18 and 19 travelling together who have spent years immersed in playing violent video games pretending to be killers - no way! What would they have needed a gun for anyway, as they were supposed to be travelling directly to Whitehorse looking for work?

I think we’ll learn the guns were either stolen or purchased illegally.

I think it's possible the guns came from Kam's family and in that case, were probably taken without his family's knowledge. How often do people really check on their gun cabinet?

Or simply didn't care, one way or another, whether bodies got found. They burnt their bridges when they killed Lucas and Chynna, then they burnt their truck. They knew there was no going back to their previous life at that point. If they detested their previous life, they were going to detest prison even more.

At that point, as it probably was from the beginning (whether conscious or not) it was a suicide mission. The whole thing could be construed as a massive, heinously destructive cry for help. But at 18-19 years of age, the only source of the help was from within the individuals. Instead, they supported each others' narratives about how effed up the world is, how everyone dies anyway, how their lives were going to suck, how they might as well get off this ride before the ride broke down any more (which is how many young people see the world, they're not alone).

That is an interesting perspective. That it was a suicide mission subconsciously before it was one consciously. I mean, I guess it seems kind of obvious when one thinks about it. That would explain why they seemed to be trying to get away with it, but also not. The entire thing was driven by their out of control moods and impulses and the same went for the escape. I feel like most serial killers whose objective is to keep killing, put in a lot of effort to cover up their crimes so they can get away with it longer. With these guys I think it was only ever meant to be this "extinction burst" and that's probably why they stopped killing and became despondent after just a few days. Rage can't keep a person going forever. The rage wore off and the depression and horror set in.

Also maybe subconsciously this was a way to force themselves to commit suicide. Like, they hated their lives, so they decided to do something so terrible that not only could they live with themselves, but they would never have any hope of a good life again. They probably could have gotten away with it, but they made it so obvious that they did it (and when it wasn't particularly obvious in the first one, they made it so with the second). Then they could have turned themselves in, but instead they went so deep into the wilderness that they probably would have had no idea how to get out even if they changed their minds. They put themselves in a situation where suicide was the only good option, and I think that was one reason why. I don't know how much of this was even on a conscious level. Just speculation.

This is a very interesting and illuminating topic. If we are interested in prediction and prevention (and some of us are), it's great to explore.

It's possible Bryer didn't actually graduate. However, somehow, I doubt that Grandma would have had major consequences for him, for that. Perhaps both boys were being pushed in the direction of employment (as I posted earlier, many families do in fact find ways of "making" their kids launch, sooner or later). Kam was out of high school for what, a year? With no employment? Lots of parents would be annoyed, especially if all the time was spent playing games and none of the time was spent running the household. An adult child living in a house without contributing income should (in the views of many) being taking on virtually all the housework. Just saying.

I can surely imagine a scenario in which getting "kicked out" of the house meant "Here, you can have this truck and camper." Because that's what I see in my own neighborhood. Middle class/working class people. More than once when my daughters were in high school, they asked if a friend could pitch a tent in the backyard (nope) or park their car or van alongside our house (two nights only - that's what the local ordinance says and really, no one is supposed to sleep inside).

Just a month ago, on nextdoor, a neighbor reported that a young adult had set up a tent in their backyard, in an area behind a couple of trees. They figured he'd been there for a while and they hadn't noticed. They took it down and tossed it over the fence (they were not pleased), along with a yoga mat and a sleeping bag. They live not far from a park where restrooms open at 8 am. So yeah, some kids get kicked out and try camping.

The amount of high stress interaction that occurs right before the kid is finally "kicked out" can be major. It sometimes results in complete rifts between parents and offspring that last for years - or forever.

This makes sense. We were speculating a while ago that their parents/guardians were probably happy they were going up north so that they could get some perspective on the "real world," and maybe realize that they needed to learn some more skills to succeed in the real world. Bryer's grandma has said he was well-behaved and hasn't said anything about any major rifts, although he did have issues with his mom. Kam's family also has said he was a kind person and they haven't said anything about any trouble. But who really knows what was going on. I think for sure something happened that was more than just being gently but firmly pushed into the adult world though. Like some kind of thing that they would see as an intolerable insult. But I'm not clear as to what.

I actually interpret that comment from Kam as almost sarcastically mocking his parents too.

Same, like "our parents think we're going on this fun adventure to find work and instead we're using resources they gave us to go on a murder-suicide spree."

Thank you for this. It's the first I've seen of there being 6 "shell casings" found at the van.

Given that, *IF* the tiny orange cones at the Dease Lake murder scene were also "shell casings", 9 of them, this indicates to me that the weapons might not be shotguns as I'd suspected. That level of fire sounds more like handguns to me. The fact "shell casings" were found also tells us that the weapons were not revolvers (unless they reloaded on scene and tossed plus scattered their brass).
So, 2 ACP type semi-auto handguns is my current guess as to the weaponry used. Assuming, of course, the same weaponry was used in all three murders (they may have had more than 2 guns).

Wait so one of the news reports mentioned they shot themselves with rifles. So at least four guns in that case?! Where did they get all those guns? The more guns they had, the less chance they were taken from family members.

 

[Arizona 123]

I can’t find mention of that anywhere? Do you have a link or ??

It's in the press conference that's linked in that post. I'll try to make a link directly to it...

Sorry, I can't get it to work with a timestamp. Best I can do is a direct link to the press conference video. The relevant bit begins at 7:10

 

[NJSleuth91]

Sorry, I don't agree with this scenario. I think they obtained guns before the road trip with the specific intent to use them.

I don't agree with it either. I think they got the guns before they left. However, some people were speculating on it as a possibility and there's technically a non-zero chance it occurred. Now that we know Prof Dyck was very anti-gun, that rules it out for him at least.

 

[Optics]

Also is it really that weird to not have a license at 18? Most of my friends didn't have their license until 20 or 21 and I still have never gotten mine. None of us did it in high school. I'm in the NYC area but still, a lot of us lived in areas where cars are at least semi-necessary.

In Canada, yes it is 'weird' or less common for someone not to have their license at least by 18. The fact is unless you live all your life in a big city such as Toronto, a license is almost a necessity. In BC be it on Vancouver Island or main BC especially we are a very mountainous province, outside of Vancouver transportation is difficult. Kids have school activities, work in the small towns and need something of a vehicle to get there.

 

[Optics]

Heartbreaking. He sounds like a man who lived his life with honor and integrity...and this is how it ends....

Also I guess that ends the discussion of if they stole any firearms from Prof Dyck.

Mr. Dyck is a pacifist, I don't even begin to imagine he would carry a firearm. Seriously in Canada its just not common to have a rifle or handgun with you or in your vehicle unless you are a hunter, or in a gang in larger city centers.

 

[Link Haze]

Bryer's father did indeed admit that he could not be bothered to take any responsibility for Bryer - did not even take the time to put him on a bike with training wheels.

However, that has nothing to do with Bryer being a murderer. Bryer was an adult and he could have done anything he wanted with his life. He choose murder and suicide. The same is true of Kam. He probably did learn to ride a bike, and he too choose murder and suicide.

Exactly! Our entire lives are based upon the choices we make. Too many times, you hear excuses from killers, like, "well, I had poor potty training"... Come On!

 

[Arizona 123]

Wait so one of the news reports mentioned they shot themselves with rifles. So at least four guns in that case?! Where did they get all those guns? The more guns they had, the less chance they were taken from family members.

I haven't yet seen anything definitive regarding what they shot themselves with, just that they shot themselves.

Whether there were 2 guns, or more than two, my theory is they were stolen. Might be stolen from family members, or they could be stolen from elsewhere. My hunch is the latter (I think those two might have been criminals before they ever saw that blue van). I have nothing solid to base it on, though.