Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[CanadianMade]

This has remained my theory from the very beginning. Even after reading through all the great comments, theories and reports that have been submitted here, I'm still not convinced the boys killed Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese. I do however think they had some kind of encounter turned dispute with Leonard Dyck the night of the 18th/19th and it got out of control and they unintentionally killed him. Their behavior and decisions after they stole the RAV and fled tells me the killing of Leonard Dyck absolutely terrified those boys to their core. I don't think they could even handle one death, let alone three. All the encounters I've read of those who came in contact with Kam and Bryer after the fact just reeks of: shame, paranoia, panic and apathy.

Has been my theory since the beginning as well. Since the moment the video of them in Meadow Lake was released.
I don't intend to change it based on media reports and other peoples theories(though I appreciate reading most of them). I'm just waiting for more from the RCMP now.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Yes, for sure I’ve noticed the studies you’ve posted on here and I appreciate your perspective. And I’m not accusing you of defending these individuals at all. You’re trying to understand them, just as we are all.

But remember, theories in psychology change dramatically. When I was studying psychology, many long years ago, the idea was that psychopaths are a result of their environment. A decade later, experts decided that psychopathy is a purely physiological abnormality - it’s related to a low level of cortical arousal that’s so uncomfortable that the individual needs extreme stimulation (like killing someone) in order to feel comfortable. (The same goes for schizophrenics, the shizophrenogenic mother being considered the cause when I was studying psychology, but now it’s seen as a physiological abnormality.) I stopped paying attention awhile back, so I don’t know what the experts are saying about the origins of psychopathy now. But I’d bet my farm that the experts have vacillated a few times since then, and will continue to vacillate in the future.

Psychology is such a terribly soft science, you’ll easily find theories and studies and experts to support just about anything you want. Trends come and go, the studies that support those trends are supported or reputed and mostly forgotten, and over the years theories tend to swing like pendulums in a stiff wind.

I agree and I have my own criticisms of psychology and psychiatry, which we should not get into here. I used to work in the life sciences so I know how by-the-seat-of-your-pants all this research stuff really can be, and even more so if you're dealing with something as irrational as human beings. However I will point out that just because a theory is disproved over time with better evidence (ie. brain scans and genetic testing for sociopaths) doesn't mean that the process that led to it is totally worthless. It just means that we didn't have the ability to collect better evidence at the time and technology has increased that ability, as we would expect. Ultimately, they do still use some level of scientific rigor, and basically, it's better than just having an opinion with no evidence behind it besides personal feelings and opinions. It's the best we have, pretty much.

Also as for sociopaths someone posted an article here a few days ago indicating that even for sociopaths, it is a combination of both genetics and environment. That surprised me because I had always heard it was just genetics. But also, it does make sense with what we know about people in general. This article also indicated that sociopaths could be turned in a more pro-social direction, and even in some cases sort of taught to have a conscience, with the right interventions. I don't remember the name of the article though so I can't link it, but if anyone remembers, I hope they will link it.

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[MistyWaters]

There are threads like this all over the internet:
Walmart stores that sell ammunition - Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum

Also, here's a quote from the National Post:

“There is a set cap limit on what they can produce,” said Blair Hagen, executive vice-president of Canada’s National Firearms Association. “So, there’s a lot of hoarding going on in Canada. People are waiting outside places like Walmart and Canadian Tire to purchase mass quantities, keeping it for themselves or reselling it.”

Canadian gun owners hoard bullets in face of feared shortage of ammunition from U.S.

The comments on that forum are almost 10 years old. Walmart stores have rebranded themselves several times since then.

Regardless, we don’t yet know where they got the guns from. Is the theory they were stockpiling stolen ammunition from Walmart in advance to leaving Port Alberni? But how do we know they had a heavy supply of ammunition?

 

[Errrr]

The "mud guy" - meaning the man in Cold Lake who pulled them out had his story grow from the initial statement. It has been said he kept embellishing the encounter with each passing moment. The original statement was he pulled them out, the encounter was brief. I would not put weight into anything he says other than the initial statement.

I’m willing to cut him some slack. I don’t think people up there have much experience with people asking their opinion on anything. He may be just getting the hang of insight.

 

[CinNC]

There have been many, many posts about the psychological state of K and B and what led them to murder. I was reminded of a few details on the motivation of the killers from the Manson murders in 1969, as follow(s).

Deputy District Attorney Stephen Kay (one of the prosecutors in the Charles Manson murders) was told by Manson, “What's real has different levels," Manson said. "You could go on certain levels of reality that other people don't really understand at all. So, they call it insanity."

I remember reading in Helter Skelter, Vincent Bugliosi's account of the murders, that one of the young women who went to the Tates and LaBianca houses to murder people said she just wanted to see what it felt like to stab someone.

As someone else here posted recently, we cannot begin to understand the state of mind(s) of people whose reality is completely different than ours. Perhaps another murderer could understand K and B's supposed motivation, but I know I certainly won't - even after/if it is revealed by RCMP.

 

[MistyWaters]

I get the sense that applying some top-level, overriding logical structure to these guys might be a mistake and give them too much credit.

It seems far more likely to me they were employing more of an ad hoc, this makes sense right now, now this makes sense right now type of thinking..."we just killed this couple, let's get the hell out of here and camp out several hundred km away on another highway"..."the RCMP are asking for info and dashcam footage, we need to ditch our truck, let's burn it"..."let's stay as far north as we can and avoid larger urban places like Edmonton"..."we've reached the end of the road in northern Manitoba and can't go back through that constable checkpoint, let's burn this Rav so they won't be able to trace it back to anyone and take off along this creekbed"...

Someone several threads earlier mentioned the cinematic, video game-like quality to their actions. This is that video game, ad hoc-ism where every decision is made in the moment and makes sense in that moment based on the materials at hand. "Hey, here's a boat, it must be here for a reason, let's take it."

JMO

I think your post describes an excellent analogy of how a young person might think, one who’s worldly experience is obtained by playing fantasy video games. Overcome the obstacle at the moment and move on, but then came the harsh realities of northern Manitoba, bugs, starvation, treacherous waters, police presence....no escape.

I don’t know, does anyone, is suicide of one’s character a preferable way to surrender when playing violent video games....as opposed to getting massacred by the “enemy”?

 

[scrappinkat]

Is the theory they were stockpiling stolen ammunition from Walmart in advance to leaving Port Alberni??

Years ago whoever my hubby and I went to Walmart we would head to the ammo section and they were always always out of 22LR ammo. In hunting communities it became known there was a shortage of 22LR ammo so when it actually landed on a store shelf people would buy 20-30 boxes of it, not knowing when or if they would have a chance to buy more.
The stockpiling ammo story isn’t referring to Bryer or Kam.

 

[MistyWaters]

Same, I heard nothing about Tommy Ste-Croix seeing a sleeping bag hanging, drying on the fence in Cold Lake in his report until Clint Sawchuck discovered a blue sleeping bag on the side of the river. But, as I understand it, it was not in the vicinity of where the boys' bodies were found or the boat. The sleeping bag was all the way down by Port Nelson at the literal mouth of the Nelson River. This sleeping bag, if it was indeed Kam and Bryer's, has been the adventure of a lifetime. I get that it's entirely possible it floated on down river but my goodness... Also, Tommy Ste-Croix said he saw a photo of this sleeping bag put out by the media. Has anyone been able to verify this? I've searched high and low and can't find anything.

This was the last I noticed regarding the sleeping bag being a key finding by the RCMP, unconfirmed.

Traumatized Gillam, Fox Lake residents get back to life after manhunt
08/08/2019 6:00:00 PMLocal
RCMP did not provide any further information Thursday, but Cpl. Julie Courchaine emailed a statement denying a Globe and Mail report that the force had hired a professional tracker prior to Wednesday's discovery. And she would not confirm reports crediting a tourist boat operator with finding a sleeping bag on the Nelson River shoreline last Friday.

 

[MistyWaters]

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If they took the truck without permission, as they were bonded friends, I think it’d be very unlikely for B to inform his family members they were heading to Whitehorse (or Red Deer) to look for work in advance of leaving. The obvious question would be how did the two intend to get there and that would risk tipping off K’s family of the future plans of a truck theft. And if they’d stolen the truck, I think they’d both just suddenly disappeared from Port Alberni with no contact to either side of the family but JMO.

If the truck or guns were stolen from the McLeod home, I also wonder why the dad would say this -
“McLeod says what the family does know is that their son is kind, considerate and a caring young man who has always been concerned about other people’s feelings...”
'I'm sitting at home worrying about my son': B.C. homicide suspect's father

 

[tabitha111]

B.C. manhunt suspects recorded final message on phone found with bodies, family says | The Star
omg!

A family member told Star Vancouver that about 30 seconds of the video found on the cellphone have been shared with the families of McLeod and Schmegelsky.

 

[KR72]

B.C. manhunt suspects recorded final message on phone found with bodies, family says | The Star
omg!

A family member told Star Vancouver that about 30 seconds of the video found on the cellphone have been shared with the families of McLeod and Schmegelsky.

Well, this should end all kinds of speculation.

 

[MistyWaters]

B.C. manhunt suspects recorded final message on phone found with bodies, family says | The Star
omg!

A family member told Star Vancouver that about 30 seconds of the video found on the cellphone have been shared with the families of McLeod and Schmegelsky.

I wonder why the name of the family member isn’t released and why they didn’t see the video. If this anonymous person isn’t a reliable source and there’s no such video, I can see what road this leads down for some...the police must be hiding evidence.

BBM

“In that brief segment, McLeod and Schmegelsky detailed their wishes for their remains. It was a goodbye, and a “last will and testament,” said the family member, who did not see the video first-hand.

Police have the rest of the video, of unknown length, the source said.

The RCMP declined to comment on the existence of such a video...”

 

[FactFinder3000]

"A professional tracker had been brought in to help the RCMP search and was with officers when the bodies were found in brush near the shoreline of the Nelson River, said a source familiar with the investigation who was granted confidentiality because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the matter."

RCMP ‘confident’ bodies of B.C. homicide suspects have been found as manhunt ends

 

[Arizona 123]

Well, this should end all kinds of speculation.

Not necessarily, though it should surely help.

The reason for my equivocation is that it's quite plausible the suspects might want to paint themselves in as good a light as possible if they left a message for their families. Thus, I'd be inclined to take with a large dose of salt any mitigating claims they make.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I wonder why the name of the family member isn’t released ...

Because the Star wants to protect their source and/or they spoke on condition of not being named.

 

[cartman]

B.C. manhunt suspects recorded final message on phone found with bodies, family says | The Star
omg!

A family member told Star Vancouver that about 30 seconds of the video found on the cellphone have been shared with the families of McLeod and Schmegelsky.

OMG is right. If that is true I hope it brings the families some peace.
It would also be nice to gain some insight as to why. I still can’t wrap my head around any of this.

 

[CanadianMade]

Well, this should end all kinds of speculation.

Or create more.

 

[cartman]

Regarding the anonymous family member source... The public hasn’t exactly been kind to AS when he has spoken out so I can understand the source’s wish to remain anonymous.

 

[CanadianMade]

Regarding the anonymous family member source... The public hasn’t exactly been kind to AS when he has spoken out so I can understand the source’s wish to remain anonymous.

Agreed, but I do question why they would speak to the media at all if they haven't even seen said video.

 

[LoisLane]

If they took the truck without permission, as they were bonded friends, I think it’d be very unlikely for B to inform his family members they were heading to Whitehorse (or Red Deer) to look for work in advance of leaving. The obvious question would be how did the two intend to get there and that would risk tipping off K’s family of the future plans of a truck theft. And if they’d stolen the truck, I think they’d both just suddenly disappeared from Port Alberni with no contact to either side of the family but JMO.

If the truck or guns were stolen from the McLeod home, I also wonder why the dad would say this -
“McLeod says what the family does know is that their son is kind, considerate and a caring young man who has always been concerned about other people’s feelings...”
'I'm sitting at home worrying about my son': B.C. homicide suspect's father

It’s very possible the parents/guardians of the boys would not have communicated with each other in the lead up and possibly not for days after.. if at all even to this day. BS may have used various stories for kicks or to get money from his grandma or to cover up for something that he had to answer to. Not every child will give the same story because they are using the story for what works best for their parents expectations.

Maybe KM’s parents were away at the time of KM’s departure or the truck when not in use is parked somewhere that the parents wouldn’t have noticed right away that it was missing.