NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[caradana]

I think I very well might have been scared. (and I am your grandmother's age)
But I wouldn't have wanted an obviously mentally ill person to be killed, well after I left the subway car. I would have recognized it as a mental health issue.
I would have been happy that another passenger (DP) restrained JN. But I would have been upset that JN was held in a chokehold well past necessary and it led to his death.

Curious, have you ever been in it?
Have you been in a subway car with a mentally ill aggressor?
I have. 2019. He had a hypodermic needle sticking out of his face and was eating a lit cigarette. He was also on that NYC top 50 list, it was later revealed.

 

[caradana]

I agree with you.
Without the ability to involuntarily commit and hold them and force them to be medicated there’s no point in discussing it.
The laws need to change. They’re not going to. There is no point discussing it.

I would’ve agreed with you a few weeks ago but as a fellow Jersey girl with many Lindas in her family - I think there is a chance this will change, akin to how it changed in the 1990s, and how it changed after BG in 1994. This all does evolve. Thankfully!

 

[Snoopster]

Curious, have you ever been in it?
Have you been in a subway car with a mentally ill aggressor?
I have. 2019. He had a hypodermic needle sticking out of his face and was eating a lit cigarette. He was also on that NYC top 50 list, it was later revealed.

I'm so sorry you had to face that.

 

[Marysmith]

I think the issue with mentally ill homeless people is everywhere but more pronounced in major cities and obviously NYC has a great public transport system that is accessible. It has been pretty clear worldwide that universal health care can help but i understand that many people disagree with that. Of course there will still be people missed for whatever reason but I do feel things would improve for people who are mentally ill and not able to function in society without medication.
Unfortunately, if laws and health care access don't change, things will not change in NYC.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I would’ve agreed with you a few weeks ago but as a fellow Jersey girl with many Lindas in her family - I think there is a chance this will change, akin to how it changed in the 1990s, and how it changed after BG in 1994. This all does evolve. Thankfully!

I do so hope you are right

 

[Marysmith]

I agree with you.
Without the ability to involuntarily commit and hold them and force them to be medicated there’s no point in discussing it.
The laws need to change. They’re not going to. There is no point discussing it.

Jinx. Just said this too!

 

[Snoopster]

I’ve been very clear about where I place blame. I don’t understand how you could be confused?

I will do whatever it takes to protect my family and myself. I will stay out of NYC & other places where government is deliberately failing.

I am confused as to where you are placing the blame. Is it the government or the non-profits? (Sorry for not following the plot. mea culpa)
If it's the government, isn't that the voters/taxpayers? If it's the government you seem to say that they don't care about supporting health care and the mentally ill? Maybe you could work with groups who support those things?

I'm sorry if I seem to be trivializing your concerns, as I don't mean to do that. I am sorry that you are so fearful. Please take care.

 

[Jade]

I’m a solid not guilty. Have been since the start.
I’ve stayed silent on here about this case because I can not believe he was charged to begin with.
I see it as a malicious prosecution and the entire situation an EPIC FAILURE of government.
The country needs more people like Daniel Penny.

More people that lie to investigators during their interview?

Had I been the mother with the young child whose face Neely was screaming in, menacing & threatening …I very well may have shot him to protect my child.

The mother testified that Penny lied about JN threatening her.

Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

It was the first time jurors heard the voice of the man whose fate they’re weighing.

nypost.com

This mentality is why I drilled into my husband’s head to NEVER EVER defend some stranger.
I know I won’t.
We are both licensed concealed carriers.
Y’all are on your own.

Thank you I hope your husband listens to you.

What if your mother or grandmother was one of the passengers on the subway that he had threatened? Or if it was your baby that you were desperately trying to hide behind the stroller, while JN aggressively threatened to kill them?

Would you feel differently?

It’s been posted and pointed out to you that the mother testified Penny lied about Neely threatening her.

Like with Penny the facts are bad enough no need to exaggerate.

All imo

 

[Lilibet]

There is legally mandated treatment in New York and I'm wondering why he wasn't on it due to the many charges. Clearly he needed help and likely medication. There are places in the world where nurses go out on the street and find people that have those orders and give them the medication (usually a long-acting injectable antispychotic for schizophrenia) they have been ordered.
Regardless he was not well mentally. And yes his behavior was threatening but he didn't actually physically assault anyone either.

Mr Neely was sent to residential treatment to last 15 months or so. He walked away after a few weeks. That’s why there was an arrest warrant issued. When permanent mental institutions were abolished in the 1980s, the idea was that the mentally ill would get treatment in their communities. Great idea, but it didn’t happen. So here we are.

Mr Neely didn’t need to die. He could have been restrained until the threat ended in 30 seconds when the train arrived at the next station, others stepped in to help and passengers left the train. Then maybe he could have gotten better mental health help this time. I’d really like to know what was going through Mr Penny’s mind when he heard people telling him to let go. Did he unconsciously take Mr Neely literally that he didn’t care if he died? The whole situation is a tragedy for both men.

JMO

 

[GRT]

Defending other people is not vigilantism. We have the right to self defense as well as the right to defend others.


What we are witnessing is a component of the phenomenon known as as anarcho-tyranny. Government allows the criminal element to run amok but aggressively prosecutes any citizen who defends themselves.

That’s NYC in a nutshell.

It's not just that we have the right to defend ourselves and others...it's our duty as human beings to protect others.

But, beyond that--something the jury needs to look at very closely--is that DP's chokehold was not the sole cause of JN's death. It was a factor--but not because DP was choking JN too hard, but rather because JN died of exertional sickling, according to Dr. Chundru.

Dr. Chundru said the drugs in JN's system, dehydration, schizophrenia, struggling against restraint, and having SCT, all came together to trigger an exertional sickling event that was fatal.

It's rare but not unheard of. High school athletes (typically young black males who appear very healthy) unexpectedly drop dead during strenuous practice--or in a game--when a similar thing occurs, and they have SCT like JN did. This is MOO, based on studies I researched. But, the studies are out there for anyone to read.

I believe Dr. Chundru nailed it -- DP was not the sole cause of JN's death. MOO

 

[GRT]

More people that lie to investigators during their interview?
The mother testified that Penny lied about JN threatening her.
Thank you I hope your husband listens to you.
It’s been posted and pointed out to you that the mother testified Penny lied about Neely threatening her.
Like with Penny the facts are bad enough no need to exaggerate.

All imo

Respectfully snipped by me for focus.

It's not really clear that DP lied--but it is clear that Eric Gonzalez lied when he said JN hit him. Gonzalez admitted he lied about that because he was afraid he'd get charged, but he's also the one who said DP held on after he said he'd hold JN's hands so DP could let go. Problem is--Gonzalez is already been established as a liar, so I don't put too much stock in that statement either.

But, even if Gonzalez didn't lie that time, it makes no difference because DP was not holding JN tight enough that it would kill JN. We know that because Dr. Chundru testified to it, based on the autopsy results.

I haven't seen any verification of the mother testifying that JN didn't threaten her. Several of the witnesses testified that JN lunged toward her and her child, which could be construed as a threat.

All...MOO

 

[GRT]

Why is the manner of death important? A chokehold is just as lethal as a gunshot.

It can be.

But, in this case, we know JN survived at least 6 minutes and was conscious for 5, and we know experts testified that DP could have rendered JN unconscious in 15 seconds.

That backs up DP's claim that he was not trying to kill JN, and we have expert testimony based on autopsy results and the video footage that tells us JN didn't die from the chokehold. DP was not applying fatal pressure.

 

[GRT]

Where I live, stray dogs are treated better and with far more compassion than the mentally ill homeless are in NYC.
It sickening me to see human beings living on the streets.
It’s not a lack of money.
Homeless & Mental Health “non-profits” are FLUSH with cash & services.
Money isn’t the issue.

Totally agree.

No one's blaming JN because we all understand that he was not in control of his emotions and actions. He was mentally ill, hungry, dehydrated, angry, and on drugs.

But, he was an accident waiting to happen. And it eventually happened.

With 42 arrests (some for violence) under his belt, there was no reason for the authorities not to lock him up when he broke the bones in an elderly woman's face just a few months prior to this incident. But, once again, he was able to slip away.

I'd love to see the salaries of those running the non-profits you mention. There's the real crime...

All MOO

 

[GRT]

No, I previously stated that I rode the subway with my baby daughter in a stroller. The solution is to either not get on or move to another car. I wouldn't be applauding Penny as my hero. And I also have personal experience with a homeless person acting aggresive towards me recently- on a public street. I avoided him. Problem solved.

I'm so glad you were able to move to another car safely and also avoid an aggressive homeless person.

Unfortunately, murders on the subway are up 60% this year, so not everyone has been successful at moving to another car. Those victims were not able to avoid their attackers and declare, "problem solved."

The subway is paid for with tax dollars, and there is no reason residents can't travel safely. Telling them "not to get on" is akin to telling a woman not to wear a short skirt if she doesn't want to get raped. That's victim-blaming.

We all want and deserve to live in a world that's safe.

All MOO

Choosing to ride the subway shouldn't put you at risk of being attacked.

 

[sunspun]

Respectfully snipped by me for focus.

It's not really clear that DP lied--but it is clear that Eric Gonzalez lied when he said JN hit him. Gonzalez admitted he lied about that because he was afraid he'd get charged, but he's also the one who said DP held on after he said he'd hold JN's hands so DP could let go. Problem is--Gonzalez is already been established as a liar, so I don't put too much stock in that statement either.

But, even if Gonzalez didn't lie that time, it makes no difference because DP was not holding JN tight enough that it would kill JN. We know that because Dr. Chundru testified to it, based on the autopsy results.

I haven't seen any verification of the mother testifying that JN didn't threaten her. Several of the witnesses testified that JN lunged toward her and her child, which could be construed as a threat.

All...MOO

Is it fair to point out that Dr Chundru was paid for his testimony, or is that supposed to be something we shouldn't mention, because it's considered irrelevant or secret or disrespectful or... something else?

 

[Jade]

[..]

...Dr. Cynthia Harris, the doctor who performed Neely's autopsy. Jurors saw photos from the autopsy, in particular of Neely's neck and eyes.

Harris ruled Neely's cause of death compression of the neck, or asphyxia.

[...]

After Penny let go of Neely, several witnesses, including responding officers, testified Neely had a pulse. Harris said that's not surprising.

"This is an asphyxial death ... The brain dies first," she said.

Neely had sickle cell trait. She testified it's normally benign, an asymptomatic condition, but his spleen and red blood cells were sickled. In her medical opinion, she testified, it was caused because he was "in a low oxygen situation."

[...]

Harris doubled down, telling the jury that Neely could have had enough fentanyl in his system to knock down an elephant and that still would not have changed her opinion.


Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death


[...]

She told jurors earlier in the trial that Neely suffered "an asphyxial death" as a result of the chokehold. She called it "profoundly improbable" that Neely's death was due to synthetic marijuana use and sickle cell condition, which is related but not equivalent to sickle cell disease.

Within the medical examiner's office, "the consensus was unanimous" that Neely had died from the chokehold, Harris said, adding: "There are no alternative reasonable explanations."

Defense in Daniel Penny case rests without client taking the stand in NYC subway chokehold death

Closing arguments are expected after the Thanksgiving holiday.

abc7chicago.com

Three million grains of salt needed for the Defense hired gun brought in all the way from from Texas who makes a living testifying as needed opinion, imo.

all imo

 

[GRT]

Is it fair to point out that Dr Chundru was paid for his testimony, or is that supposed to be something we shouldn't mention, because it's considered irrelevant or secret or disrespectful or... something else?

Oh, sure, it's fair to point out.

It's very common to compensate expert witnesses for their time and expertise. They often have highly specialized knowledge in fields like forensics. Like Dr. Chundru does. Payment typically aligns with the professional nature of the expert testimony.

Cross-examination ensures the expert witnesses are paid for their expertise and for delivering favorable testimony. The Court evaluates the credibility of paid experts as well.

 

[GRT]

I agree with you.
Without the ability to involuntarily commit and hold them and force them to be medicated there’s no point in discussing it.
The laws need to change. They’re not going to. There is no point discussing it.

This.

While there were problems with institutionalization, the deinstitutionalization movement failed so many people.

It led to increased homelessness and a lack of federal funding for mental health care. It's sad all the way around.

There has to be a happy medium that helps the mentally ill and offers a modicum of protection for others.

 

[GRT]

I would’ve agreed with you a few weeks ago but as a fellow Jersey girl with many Lindas in her family - I think there is a chance this will change, akin to how it changed in the 1990s, and how it changed after BG in 1994. This all does evolve. Thankfully!

I so hope you're right! Because we all deserve to take public transportation and be safe.

It is interesting to note that Mayor Adams recently put 1,000 police officers in the subway system. That tells me that the officials recognize there is a clear and present danger, and they're trying to do something about it.

Not all, but many who ride the subway, can't afford to take an Uber or taxi. If they work far away from their homes, the subway may be their only option.

All MOO

 

[GRT]

[..]

...Dr. Cynthia Harris, the doctor who performed Neely's autopsy. Jurors saw photos from the autopsy, in particular of Neely's neck and eyes.

Harris ruled Neely's cause of death compression of the neck, or asphyxia.

[...]

After Penny let go of Neely, several witnesses, including responding officers, testified Neely had a pulse. Harris said that's not surprising.

"This is an asphyxial death ... The brain dies first," she said.

Neely had sickle cell trait. She testified it's normally benign, an asymptomatic condition, but his spleen and red blood cells were sickled. In her medical opinion, she testified, it was caused because he was "in a low oxygen situation."

[...]

Harris doubled down, telling the jury that Neely could have had enough fentanyl in his system to knock down an elephant and that still would not have changed her opinion.


Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death


[...]

She told jurors earlier in the trial that Neely suffered "an asphyxial death" as a result of the chokehold. She called it "profoundly improbable" that Neely's death was due to synthetic marijuana use and sickle cell condition, which is related but not equivalent to sickle cell disease.

Within the medical examiner's office, "the consensus was unanimous" that Neely had died from the chokehold, Harris said, adding: "There are no alternative reasonable explanations."

Defense in Daniel Penny case rests without client taking the stand in NYC subway chokehold death

Closing arguments are expected after the Thanksgiving holiday.

abc7chicago.com

Three million grains of salt needed for the Defense hired gun brought in all the way from from Texas who makes a living testifying as needed opinion, imo.

all imo

And then they brought in an even more experienced forensic expert who explained why Harris was incorrect.