NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[fred&edna]

I still am gobsmacked by the games that the judge played yesterday on the jury. They had been deliberating for days, working hard to come to an agreement on the charges and instructions that were given. They were unable to reach one, a hung jury was noted, the Allen charge was given, they tried again...respectfully so.

Instead of calling a mistrial.....the judge offers his assistance to the DA.....and DROPS the initial charge. Now, he re-invents instructions, and allows them to only consider the 2nd count. That is a slap in the face to those 12,who each worked hard.. regardless of which side each of them were leaning towards.

Do you all really think that there are jurors who are ok with that decision? Probably split, IMO. Just as they were on the initial count that was dropped. I am of the opinion that there are at least one or two jurors who see clearly through the games that were played. The DA overcharged. And the judge rolled the dice and "took a chance" on them not noticing. SHAME on the NYC courts. You don't play with "The People".

IMO

I wonder how many prosecutors will begin overcharging the accused now??

And, I hope someone has the care, time and funds to look-into the possible jury tampering. Since the judge didn't seem to take any interest.

jmo

 

[justtrish]

We do know that. As evidenced by his movements, Jordan dying, etc...
Whatever. Only evidence that fits Penny's defense counts for most people on this thread.
Penny did what he wanted to do that day and evidently he has lots of support for it.

I don't think DP did what he wanted to do that day. I don't think he wanted anyone to die that day. I think he wanted to take the train to wherever he was going and to do so safely and then go on about his day. If JN never made threatening statements, then I think they all ride that train to wherever they were going and then they go on about their day. DP only acted once he noticed a threat and it's clear that others felt threatened also by their reactions to what JN was saying. DP didn't just grab a random person and put them in a choke hold. He was responding to a threat. He didn't want to kill anyone.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Why sit around waiting for possible bloodshed, weapon brandishing, black eyes, broken bones, children kidnapped, or more?
Why not continue to use restraint until LE arrives in case the person is feigning?

jmo

There were 2 strapping men helping out, both of whom had Jordans arms secured, one of whom testified that he told Penny he had him and he could let go. Im sure between the three of them they had restraint covered. Failing that, Penny could have applied his choke hold properly and rendered Neely unconscious, as he was trained to do, and then they could have secured his hands behind his back with something, and the perceived threat would have been taken care of.

At the end of the day, he could have and should have let go sooner. JMO.

 

[browneyes]

I still am gobsmacked by the games that the judge played yesterday on the jury. They had been deliberating for days, working hard to come to an agreement on the charges and instructions that were given. They were unable to reach one, a hung jury was noted, the Allen charge was given, they tried again...respectfully so.

Instead of calling a mistrial.....the judge offers his assistance to the DA.....and DROPS the initial charge. Now, he re-invents instructions, and allows them to only consider the 2nd count. That is a slap in the face to those 12,who each worked hard.. regardless of which side each of them were leaning towards.

Do you all really think that there are jurors who are ok with that decision? Probably split, IMO. Just as they were on the initial count that was dropped. I am of the opinion that there are at least one or two jurors who see clearly through the games that were played. The DA overcharged. And the judge rolled the dice and "took a chance" on them not noticing. SHAME on the NYC courts. You don't play with "The People".

IMO

I believe I read here that there are 2 lawyers on the jury. Will they explain to the others that the prosecution/judge are changing the jury instructions? Whichever side anyone is on, a mistrial should have been declared and the DA could retry him. It’s unfair to the family of JN and to DP. You shouldn’t change the rules in the middle of deliberations. I’m hopeful the judge will declare a mistrial on Monday. He sure ended things abruptly yesterday. Maybe he knew he was possibly trending into unknown territory. I apologize if I am wrong about the jury makeup.

 

[IceIce9]

According to you the Good Samaritan laws would have protected him.

Protected him from being sued but people would have criticized him.

And how would he feel himself if he had released JN too soon and he attacked and injured others?

 

[Marysmith]

Protected him from being sued but people would have criticized him.

And how would he feel himself if he had released JN too soon and he attacked and injured others?

I don't know how he would feel. I don't know him. I know he never showed one ounce of compassion for Neely though.
But he could have released the hold he had on Neely's neck compressing his windpipe and veins and arteries as his legs and arms were pinned by others. So this is a rhetorical question.
Penny actually knew first aid and he could have administered it to Neely when as he told police "I put him down" but he didn't.

 

[fred&edna]

There were 2 strapping men helping out, both of whom had Jordans arms secured, one of whom testified that he told Penny he had him and he could let go. Im sure between the three of them they had restraint covered. Failing that, Penny could have applied his choke hold properly and rendered Neely unconscious, as he was trained to do, and then they could have secured his hands behind his back with something, and the perceived threat would have been taken care of.

At the end of the day, he could have and should have let go sooner. JMO.

One of those strapping men lied, and he received immunity from prosecution just a short time before this trial began. And, if I was a juror, I would easily believe it's likely he lied about other things, as well.

Daniel Penny was the first man to bravely stand-up and attempt to protect others. He didn't lie. He didn't run, he didn't cower, he showed courage. Since the first charge of manslaughter involving reckless behavior has been dropped, it's entirely possible prosecutors knew from the beginning that Penny didn't behave recklessly. And, furthermore, I suggest Penny's training with US Marine Corps does NOT mean he is at all blame-worthy regarding his restraint of Neely.

I won't change your opinion and you won't change mine. And, I think that's okay. No ill-will intended by me at all for our differing views.

jmo

ETA: As a US taxpayer... Taxes paying for a program that didn't protect Neely, and taxes being paid to prosecute a man who prosecutors themselves didn't believe was guilty. It's not right, good, nor beneficial to anyone. imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Before I start, this is a genuine question as I am not from the US. Just clearing that up so as not to come across as antagonistic.

Who pays for this? Is mental health treatment, especially in severe cases such as Jordan's, state funded or do families have to pay? Are the meds that people like Jordan need free, or would they have to pay for the prescriptions?.
Over here it's free and prescriptions are free if you cannot work or are on a low income, if not then they're charged at £9.90 per item.

What I am wondering is if someone can afford to be mentally ill, or if the street drugs are cheaper?

It’s free here.
The mentally ill homeless population is notorious for refusing to take prescribed medications

 

[Marysmith]

One of those strapping men lied, and he received immunity from prosecution just a short time before this trial began. And, if I was a juror, I would easily believe it's likely he lied about other things, as well.

Daniel Penny was the first man to bravely stand-up and attempt to protect others. He didn't lie. He didn't run, he didn't cower, he showed courage. Since the first charge of manslaughter involving reckless behavior has been dropped, it's entirely possible prosecutors knew from the beginning that Penny didn't behave recklessly. And, furthermore, I suggest Penny's training with US Marine Corps does NOT mean he is at all blame-worthy regarding his restraint of Neely.

I won't change your opinion and you won't change mine. And, I think that's okay. No ill-will intended by me at all for our differing views.

jmo

ETA: As a US taxpayer... Taxes paying for a program that didn't protect Neely, and taxes being paid to prosecute a man who prosecutors themselves didn't believe was guilty. It's not right, good, nor beneficial to anyone. imo

I'm not going to address anything else except to say that in fact Penny did lie. He did. More than once. I'm sorry that that's not what anyone wants to hear but he did.

 

[GRT]

Penny did what he wanted to do that day and evidently he has lots of support for it.

RSBM...

Penny did what he felt he ethically had to do that day, and yes, he has lots of support for it. But, he didn't kill JN.

You keep ignoring the forensic pathologist's testimony that the chokehold did not kill JN. Even Harris, who made the dumb declaration of the cause of death before the tox screen came back, finally admitted under the cross that JN did have a sickling event.

DP detractors keep ignoring what the forensic pathologist testified to and what Harris finally admitted. It's like they want to push a false narrative, but what could be their reason?

All MOO

 

[Marysmith]

RSBM...

Penny did what he felt he ethically had to do that day, and yes, he has lots of support for it. But, he didn't kill JN.

You keep ignoring the forensic pathologist's testimony that the chokehold did not kill JN. Even Harris, who made the dumb declaration of the cause of death before the tox screen came back, finally admitted under the cross that JN did have a sickling event.

DP detractors keep ignoring what the forensic pathologist testified to and what Harris finally admitted. It's like they want to push a false narrative, but what could be their reason?

All MOO

Would Jordan have had a sickling event if he wasn't strangled for 6 minutes straight?

 

[GRT]

I'm not going to address anything else except to say that in fact Penny did lie. He did. More than once. I'm sorry that that's not what anyone wants to hear but he did.

It's more likely, he just told investigators what he remembered. It's well-known that those involved in altercations and even those who are eyewitnesses often get some of the details incorrect.

We had a long discussion about that a day or so ago.

<modsnip: off topic hypotheticals>

 

[GRT]

Would Jordan have had a sickling event if he wasn't strangled for 6 minutes straight?

Probably, since it was exertional sickling. Had he been restrained by his arms and legs and not his neck, the outcome likely would have been the same. The pathologist testified it was JN's struggling that triggered the sickling.

 

[jepop]

Exactly! The bottom line is that were it not for the chokehold, Mr Neely would not have died of Dr Chundru’s “kitchen sink” list of causes. I challenge anyone here not to struggle if held in a chokehold, cutting off your air supply. You’d fight to be released. If that exertion caused sickling, the exertion and oxygen deprivation leading to sickling was caused by the chokehold. If the sickling caused death, that sickling was caused by the chokehold

As many of us have said repeatedly, Mr Penny acted appropriately and heroically when he initially restrained Mr. Neely. That initial action is not the issue or part of the charges. I wish that it would no longer be part of the discussion. It’s irrelevant.

It’s possible to consider Mr Penny’s initial action heroic but believe that he killed a man due to recklessness and/or negligence that was unreasonable, especially when told to let go and that he was killing Mr Neely. Those are the charges.

It’s possible to hold those two opinions at the same time. But some seem to feel that if his initial action was heroic, the final result was equally heroic and acceptable. The killing of Mr Neely was not heroic, necessary or acceptable if one values human life, even that of a “cokehead” as Mr Penny called Mr. Neely.

Some are concerned that people will be afraid to step up and take action if Mr Penny is found guilty. My concern is that it will be “open season” to attack vulnerable unhoused and mentally ill citizens if the verdict is not guilty. And yes, I believe there should be better treatment options for these people and more security on the subways and streets of NYC and other affected cities. I’m not sure where the money is going to come from though. Some problems are just plain out of control and seem unsolvable IMO.

Thankyou for consistently being a reasonable and compassionate voice on this thread. It really is possible to hold both opinions. They aren't mutually exclusive. Moo.

I maintain my faith in the law and the concept of just accountability. DP's continuous application of chokehold for six minutes (whilst being assisted by two others holding JN on either side) until JN was rendered unconscious and asphyxiated, was not ok. And DP maintained that hold even as concerned citizens told him to let go. Told him it was safe to let go. He maintained the hold as JN entered the stage of involuntary movement/twitching that precedes death. That's on video and in testimony. Links posted numerous times. Moo

It was right to bring DP to trial on charges based not on intent but on recklessness and negligence.Moo

This case has it's own specifics. Like most cases it has its own set of unique circumstances.

So speaking to your second point, I don't understand why some fear, depending on the outcome here, they could be routinely charged in the future for;

1) rendering first aid to strangers in the subway or elsewhere; and/or (?)

2) 'neutralising' a perceived threat with reasonable force.

In the case of 1); there is no relevance whatsoever as regards DP's charges. He wasn't rendering first aid when JN was killed. Moo

In the case of 2); for those inclined to bring down a perceived threat with bodily force, nothing to fear here. Just don't use potentially lethal force such as cutting off air supply over a period of minutes, especially whilst being ably assisted by two other people holding down the person on either side. But if you nonetheless do go ahead with a chokehold, do listen to the concerns of others and release when your assistants say they have the person secured. And especially take note if someone points out the person you are restraining around the neck appears to be involuntarily twitching and you appear to be killing them. Moo

Nothing to fear when using reasonable non-reckless force for up to 6 minutes or longer. Just bring your subject down from behind and, with the assistance of two other strong men ( or women) on either side of the person, hold them still. Don't choke them around the neck. Even if your subject continues to vocalise, your physical restraint renders words harmless. Instruct another bystander as clearly as possible to call security/transport cops ASAP. Moo

If you want you can check and confirm that the person is packing a sandwich or some potato chips but not a weapon. People using non-reckless bodily force continuously for 6 minutes or longer don't need to sweat it. Jmo.

 

[Seattle1]

12/6/24

Subway chokehold death: Man's father files civil suit against Daniel Penny

Daniel Penny pinned Jordan Neely down on a New York City subway last year, allegedly killing him.

www.bbc.com

 

[LinasK]

In a way, both DP and JN are on trial. MOO

The charges against DP—what's left—are based on the degree to which JN provoked or precipitated the encounter.

I don't know if JN could have been helped to the point where he could have lived a productive life. But, he was given the "opportunity" several times, and he wasn't able to overcome his mental illness. Maybe we're asking too much of some who have mental illness.

JN was a ticking time bomb. How is it that someone with 42 arrests is even allowed on the streets?

Something tells me there was no rosy future in store for JN, and he knew it. MOO

The victim- Jordan Neely- isn't on trial here, no matter how hard the defense tries to make it so.

 

[LinasK]

That's called vigilantism. He wasn't performing a citizen's arrest.

 

[Sundog]

We do know that. As evidenced by his movements, Jordan dying, etc...
Whatever. Only evidence that fits Penny's defense counts for most people on this thread.
Penny did what he wanted to do that day and evidently he has lots of support for it.

Penny did what he had to do that day and he has lots of support for that. Being a Good Samaritan in such a volatile and enclosed space is not something that most people would be willing to do.

 

[Sundog]

I still am gobsmacked by the games that the judge played yesterday on the jury. They had been deliberating for days, working hard to come to an agreement on the charges and instructions that were given. They were unable to reach one, a hung jury was noted, the Allen charge was given, they tried again...respectfully so.

Instead of calling a mistrial.....the judge offers his assistance to the DA.....and DROPS the initial charge. Now, he re-invents instructions, and allows them to only consider the 2nd count. That is a slap in the face to those 12,who each worked hard.. regardless of which side each of them were leaning towards.

Do you all really think that there are jurors who are ok with that decision? Probably split, IMO. Just as they were on the initial count that was dropped. I am of the opinion that there are at least one or two jurors who see clearly through the games that were played. The DA overcharged. And the judge rolled the dice and "took a chance" on them not noticing. SHAME on the NYC courts. You don't play with "The People".

IMO

Agree, it's disgraceful.

 

[Sundog]

I believe I read here that there are 2 lawyers on the jury. Will they explain to the others that the prosecution/judge are changing the jury instructions? Whichever side anyone is on, a mistrial should have been declared and the DA could retry him. It’s unfair to the family of JN and to DP. You shouldn’t change the rules in the middle of deliberations. I’m hopeful the judge will declare a mistrial on Monday. He sure ended things abruptly yesterday. Maybe he knew he was possibly trending into unknown territory. I apologize if I am wrong about the jury makeup.

Yes, two attorneys on the jury - one male and one female. Also a paralegal who works in the area of criminal law. And a librarian, a health care worker, a retired person, etc. I don't remember them all.