Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[IceIce9]

What's wrong with her position?

What's wrong with her position?

Kneel directly beside the victim, both arms extended, straight and directly above the victim.

This first responder appears to be afraid or unwilling to get close enough to the victim to provide proper compressions.

I teach EMT classes, and the position of the rescuer would be an automatic fail.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

This interesting about the naxolone that LE gave JN.

“Surprisingly, our findings showed that naloxone was associated with improved clinical outcomes in both drug-related cardiac arrests and non-drug related cardiac arrests,” said Dillon. “This is important because it adds to our understanding about the effectiveness of naloxone for drug related out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.”

Study finds naloxone significantly improves outcomes in opioid-related cardiac arrests, even without a pulse

UC Davis Health researchers found an association between the use of naloxone and both the return of spontaneous circulation and survival to hospital discharge

www.ems1.com

Kneel directly beside the victim, both arms extended, straight and directly above the victim.

This first responder appears to be afraid or unwilling to get close enough to the victim to provide proper compressions.

I teach EMT classes, and the position of the rescuer would be an automatic fail.

JMO

Thanks!
Curious if the defense questioned the officers who were there first about the CPR provider's position?
IIRC: They testified on day one.

 

[Ladyotm]

When you can't breathe, you do go into an automatic "panic". And then, you start to having even more problems with breathing.

I have worked with kids, who have asthma, on just slowing down, not panicking, and managing their mind and body. Before it goes into a full asthma attack.

This is what I can't understand. Some people act like if they felt like they were dying they wouldn't be panicking and trying to get up, trying to get away, trying to live- which to some people looks like resisting. Yes, resisting dying.

 

[IceIce9]

More information about the expectation for LE to provide “Hands-only” CPR

What cops need to know about hands-only CPR

Despite being positioned to make an impact on emergency cardiac survival rates, LE remains an under-utilized component of the chain of survival

www.police1.com

Cardiocerebral resuscitation is ideal for law enforcement. No longer providing “mouth to mouth” ventilations mitigates the chances of disease transmittal or getting vomit and bodily fluids in an officer’s mouth. Officers using CCR can still observe the scene during compressions ensuring officer safety instead of diverting their eyes to give breaths.

 

[Ladyotm]

Kneel directly beside the victim, both arms extended, straight and directly above the victim.

This first responder appears to be afraid or unwilling to get close enough to the victim to provide proper compressions.

I teach EMT classes, and the position of the rescuer would be an automatic fail.

JMO

If you're upright leaning over the person's body, does this help make sure the compressions more stable, using the same amount of pressure each time? I imagine trying to do it from the side, kneeling or squatting down, that the hand on the chest would roll on the heart (like the side of a ball).

I'm just thinking...after reading about brain death a few posts above. I'm being considering making nursing my 3rd career. I don't think I could handle it.

 

[Izzylizzy]

This is what I can't understand. Some people act like if they felt like they were dying they wouldn't be panicking and trying to get up, trying to get away, trying to live- which to some people looks like resisting. Yes, resisting dying.

There's such an offensive insensitivity in some people during and after them viewing a person being tortured to death.

 

[Izzylizzy]

More info about the 30 min sit down DP had with detectives after leaving the subway.
The jury got to see the complete video of it and IIRC: it was cut-off when DP knew he needed a lawyer.
He wasn't told that JN was dead and so far there's no info on when he was told.

NYPD detective said Daniel Penny didn't know Jordan Neely was dead after chokehold

“He was just a crackhead," Penny told detectives in videotaped interview.

gothamist.com

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I agree. Penny very likely thought "X" was needed. But.... thinking "X" was needed and actually demonstrating that "X" was truly needed can be two different things.

For me, those choosing to intervene must actually demonstrate that "X" was truly needed. Simply stating that "Well, I thought..." is not sufficient. I can still give Penny leeway- but he needs to articulate something besides "I thought". For example:

I felt a long object in his waist band- It had the same shape as a knife- so, given his threats, I went to a chokehold immediately. But... it turned out to be a plastic stick he used in his MJ impressions.

As a side note, "All reported accounts" might be too broad. I believe that witness statements varied from: "I felt that Neely was very threatening" to "Another homeless guy ranting- dont like being around it, but I did not feel threatened.

Yes, the witness accounts vary a lot! One witness, the one I believe thanked Penny, and he later asked to testify for him, can be seen telling officers that there was no choke hold, and Penny wasn't applying any pressure.
Well, we know from Penny's own words that he performed a choke hold and increased pressure, so there's that!.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Dr. Harris’ testimony began Thursday, after Joseph Caballer, the Marine martial arts instructor who had taught Penny about chokeholds, told the jury that the point of the maneuver is to take control of a threat until they are unconscious.

Caballer explained the difference between blood chokes and air chokes – moves that alternately deprive the aggressor of bloodflow to and from the brain or oxygen. Dr. Harris described on Friday what she had seen in the video.

Reporters News Wire - All The Latest News

All The Latest News

reportersnewswire.com

 

[Cryptic]

It looks like the defense goes tomorrow. I am thinking that if these high powered attorneys (Penny raised alot for his defense) are worth their salt, they need to show that:

- The totality of the situation justified Penny's intervention- and- then justified his use of a clumsy chokehold -and- then justified his ignoring offers to help restrain him - and - then justified keeping the clumsy chokehold on for 6 minutes.

Focusing on things like: - the CPR was done very poorly - He had drugs in his system. Will not help much at all.

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Prosecutors say Penny had Neely in a chokehold for nearly six minutes.

In a voluntary police stationhouse interview, Penny demonstrated the chokehold, and when asked if he applied pressure, he said, "No, I didn't, I wasn't, I just wanted to keep him from getting to people."

After Penny let go of Neely, several witnesses, including responding officers, testified Neely had a pulse. Harris said that's not surprising.

"This is an asphyxial death ... The brain dies first," she said.

Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

A medical examiner testified Friday in the trial of Daniel Penny, who has been charged in connection to the 2023 chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Neely had sickle cell trait. She testified it's normally benign, an asymptomatic condition, but his spleen and red blood cells were sickled. In her medical opinion, she testified, it was caused because he was "in a low oxygen situation."

'Medical examiner questioned about drugs in Neely's system'​

A toxicology report revealed Neely had a synthetic cannabinoid otherwise known as K2 in his system, but Harris told the jury "no one can say how much" because current testing does not quantify it; it only determines if it's present since synthetic cannabinoids "change like fashion trends," Harris said.

On cross examination, defense attorneys asked Harris about higher rates of toxicity and hospitalizations due to K2. She said it was "two to 100 times more potent to standard natural occurring cannabinoids."

They also noted after she performed the autopsy, Neely's death certificate originally said cause of death pending further study. Harris said that was due to a misunderstanding; a police report said Neely had been screaming, so she had questions.

After viewing video of an unresponsive Neely and though waiting for toxicology results, she made her ruling.

Harris doubled down, telling the jury that Neely could have had enough fentanyl in his system to knock down an elephant and that still would not have changed her opinion.

Defense attorneys pointed out, and she agreed, that medical examiners often disagree on cause of death and it's not a perfect science.'

Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

A medical examiner testified Friday in the trial of Daniel Penny, who has been charged in connection to the 2023 chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Jurors on Friday also saw images of Neely’s corpse, which Harris testified showed bruising and crushed blood vessels – known as “hemorrhages” – in his neck, caused by a “considerable amount of constrictive, squeezing force.”

“It’s my medical opinion that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for Mr Neely’s death,” she told jurors.

Penny’s attorneys have argued that his actions were justified to restrain Neely, whose “unhinged” and “belligerent” rant was so frightening, according to one witness, that she moved her stroller in front of her 5-year-old to protect him.'

Daniel Penny chokehold caused Jordan Neely death, even if homeless man had enough drugs in system to ‘put down an elephant’: ME testimony

The medical examiner who ruled Jordan Neely’s death was a homicide caused by Daniel Penny’s chokehold insisted Friday she’d stand by the ruling.

nypost.com

 

[acutename]

It looks like the defense goes tomorrow. I am thinking that if these high powered attorneys (Penny raised alot for his defense) are worth their salt, they need to show that:

- The totality of the situation justified Penny's intervention- and- then justified his use of a clumsy chokehold -and- then justified his ignoring offers to help restrain him - and - then justified keeping the clumsy chokehold on for 6 minutes.

Focusing on things like: - the CPR was done very poorly - He had drugs in his system. Will not help much at all.

wonder if they have a defense medical expert

 

[Cryptic]

wonder if they have a defense medical expert

I am thinking they would- as the money raised would evidently fund alot of experts.

The defense may also opt for a police / military martial arts instructor as a defense expert witness as well.

Though the Marine instructor for the prosecution did not seem to hang Penny out to dry, the defense might not want him to be the only- and thus the most authoritative expert the jury hears.

 

[IceIce9]

I am thinking they would- as the money raised would evidently fund alot of experts.

The defense may also opt for a police / military martial arts instructor as a defense expert witness as well.

Though the Marine instructor for the prosecution did not seem to hang Penny out to dry, the defense might not want him to be the only- and thus the most authoritative expert the jury hears.

I just looked at the fund and it stands at well over 3 million dollars with more donations coming in yesterday and today.

 

[Izzylizzy]

wonder if they have a defense medical expert

Did the Cauvin trial's defense have a medical expert?
They also called a martial arts defense expert.
Both did not fare well on the stand.

Expect DP's defense to call both and with 3+ million donated to DP's defense they have a lot of cash to call god knows who else.
imo: bottom line is a healthy person with no health issues or drugs in their system would have also died in DP's chokehold.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am thinking they would- as the money raised would evidently fund alot of experts.

The defense may also opt for a police / military martial arts instructor as a defense expert witness as well.

Though the Marine instructor for the prosecution did not seem to hang Penny out to dry, the defense might not want him to be the only- and thus the most authoritative expert the jury hears.

I can see a retired Marine instructor on the stand rebuking everything that Penny's instructor testified to.
Money still talks and this case is also politically divided.

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Video of the chokehold — which Harris said showed Neely’s face turning “purple” as Penny compressed the veins in his neck — shows that “there are no alternative reasonable explanations” for how he died, she testified".

 

[jepop]

There's such an offensive insensitivity in some people during and after them viewing a person being tortured to death.

Just bouncing off and wanted to also thank you for your work in posting msm updates to the thread. I and am sure others appreciate it very much.

I ask myself if I was being choked/strangled, would I attempt to struggle? I believe so, as there is as you say a panic and survival instinct. I mean, come on, JN was struggling to live until he died. He was not trying to 'escape' in order to wreak violence on others. FGS, believe it or not he is/was the victim of excessive force here. Vulnerable and being slowly choked to death.

<modsnip> I'm sure I read testimony earlier up thread re a witness who said at one point JN (as his wind pipe was cut off, you cannot speak in this situation when your air supply is throttled) was trying to communicate with a nearby person by tapping them? Sad, horrific.

Taking a step back from the case for the time being, it's so disturbing. So just want to again say thank you so much @Izzylizzy for all your work posting! And for your support and care for JN and his grieving family and friends along with others here. Xo I hope there will be some accountability; it's definitely due imo down the road, for the sake of the victim's family and other loved ones. Jmo