Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Cryptic]

I think that Jordan Neely was guilty of menacing and Daniel Penny was totally justified in restraining him. JMO.

I can give Penny some leeway and can support your conclusion that restraining him was justified.

What I cant support is the totality:

Immediately puts on a chokehold (many police departments ban any type of chokehold because they are too risky), ignores offers of assistance- and keeps the chokehold on, chokehold is kept on for 6 minutes.

In the end, the totality is too much for me. Now, if the fact pattern was:

Penny repeatedly calls out for assistance, is having trouble restraining him, nobody offers to help him restrain Neely, chokehold is put on as a last resort. Is maintained for a minute, maybe a little more, maybe even two minutes (still way longer than recommended- but hey, real world is not training).

I could go with the defense.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The NY Post was the only media source doing live updates I had used and they are now covering another trial.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

The NY Post was the only media source doing live updates I had used and they are now covering another trial.

I hadn’t seen any live reports this morning, only general articles reviewing last week and preview of this week…

 

[Cryptic]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed/no link>


I am thinking their main fire works need be directed at what led to the chokehold being applied in the first place.

Sort of like WWII. The Germans were only going to be beaten by landing in France. The proposed capturing of secondary targets like Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia etc. may sound good- but, it would not win the war. So... D Day needed to occur in France.

In regards to this defense, planning for "France" seems to be driving strong on:

- Were they mostly elderly or children in the car that day (as opposed to say, a High School football team)? So, was direct intervention more warranted based on who was in the car?

- How quickly can somebody who goes into no limits, all out attack mode seriously injure an elderly person? (get expert witness to talk about it)

- Did Neely seem to be working up to a no limits attack? Did he say he was willing to go to prison? If so, for how long? What does it mean street sense to take off a shirt or jacket?

- Were the threats escalating? If so, give a frame by frame talk about it? Did Penny actually wait until the escalated threats before restraining him?

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am thinking their main fire works need be directed at what led to the chokehold being applied in the first place.

Sort of like WWII. The Germans were only going to be beaten by landing in France. The proposed capturing of secondary targets like Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia etc. may sound good- but, it would not win the war. So... D Day needed to occur in France.

In regards to this defense, planning for "France" seems to be driving strong on:

- Were they mostly elderly or children in the car that day (as opposed to say, a High School football team)? So, was direct intervention more warranted based on who was in the car?

- How quickly can somebody who goes into no limits, all out attack mode seriously injure an elderly person? (get expert witness to talk about it)

- Did Neely seem to be working up to a no limits attack? Did he say he was willing to go to prison? If so, for how long? What does it mean street sense to take off a shirt or jacket?

- Were the threats escalating? If so, give a frame by frame talk about it? Did Penny actually wait until the escalated threats before restraining him?

IMO:
I agree with the prosecution that since all passengers left the car in 30 secs when the train made its stop and JN was in the chokehold there was no longer the threat to passengers that DP said he believed and that was that JN was going to kill someone so he took him down.

It was okay with me that DP took JN down with the chokehold it was what he then did that led to his death.

 

[Cryptic]

IMO:
I agree with the prosecution that since all passengers left the car in 30 secs when the train made its stop and JN was in the chokehold there was no longer the threat to passengers that DP said he believed and that was that JN was going to kill someone so he took him down.

I agree with the prosecution as well. The "France" battle is going to be very difficult for the defense.

It looks like its getting harder by the minute with indications that Penny kept the chokehold on after everybody has left the car- I mean, well... WTF?. Profane, but there is no other way to express it.

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[Izzylizzy]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
It's bad enough that in NY no trials can be televised, something which has spoiled us.
Yes, it also makes no sense to me that there's no main stream media doing continuous live updates, at least none that I've found except for the NY Post.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Daniel Penny defense moves for mistrial again after prosecution witness brings up stricken subject

close Video Medical examiner testifies in Penny trial Judge Jeanine Pirro breaks down first two days of testimony from the forensic pathologist who examined Jordan Neely after his subway chokehold …

fox40jackson.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Daniel Penny defense moves for mistrial again after prosecution witness brings up stricken subject

close Video Medical examiner testifies in Penny trial Judge Jeanine Pirro breaks down first two days of testimony from the forensic pathologist who examined Jordan Neely after his subway chokehold …

fox40jackson.com

Thank you!

 

[GRT]

I can give Penny some leeway and can support your conclusion that restraining him was justified.

What I cant support is the totality:

Immediately puts on a chokehold (many police departments ban any type of chokehold because they are too risky), ignores offers of assistance- and keeps the chokehold on, chokehold is kept on for 6 minutes.

In the end, the totality is too much for me. Now, if the fact pattern was:

Penny repeatedly calls out for assistance, is having trouble restraining him, nobody offers to help him restrain Neely, chokehold is put on as a last resort. Is maintained for a minute, maybe a little more, maybe even two minutes (still way longer than recommended- but hey, real world is not training).

I could go with the defense.

Good points. If that's the way it happened, I think Penny will be acquitted. No, he didn't stop when Neely was subdued but still salvageable, but as you say -- the real world is not like training -- and Penny's adrenalin was likely running very high.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Here's a live tweeter.

@innercitypress

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858532387816161720

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Here's a live tweeter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858532387816161720

Thank you

 

[Donswife48]

IMO:

From what I've been reading is that a brain dead person cannot be brought back to life.
Their brain has completely stopped functioning and they are unable to breathe or regain consciousness ever.

If you become brain dead in a hospital setting the only thing available to keep the person going is life support which is usually used when organ donation is going to happen.

Will the defense have medical experts trying to prove that JN wasn't brain dead?
Even though he wasn't breathing when LE arrived, was unconscious and didn't respond to any stimulus.

His faint pulse then shortly no plus is common, the heart can still beat for up to 10 mins, according to Dr.Harris.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Has the state produced evidence that he was brain dead at the time the LE arrived.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Has the state produced evidence that he was brain dead at the time the LE arrived.

Not from what I’ve seen other than the one witness who concluded that from the video… might have missed it…moo

 

[Izzylizzy]

The prosecution rests and CNN has an overview of where the trial is at.

'Shaken subway riders, military chokeholds, a death certificate: How prosecutors built their case against Daniel Penny'​

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/daniel-penny-trial-prosecution-rests/index.html

 

[Izzylizzy]

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Has the state produced evidence that he was brain dead at the time the LE arrived.

IMO:
Yes, the prosecution proved it and will do a power point on closing.
According to the ME Harris the video shows JN dying.
She took the jurors step by step through the video.
When LE arrived JN was not breathing and had a faint pulse then it was soon gone.
He was unconscious and didn't respond to LE when they yelled at him and shook his chest area.
When brain dead the heart can continue beating for minutes according to Harris.

"Prosecutors said that about 3 minutes and 10 seconds into the video, Neely ceases all purposeful movement.

"After that moment, Mr. Neely's movements are best described as 'twitching and the kind of agonal movement that you see around death,'" the prosecutor said"

https://abcnews.go.com/US/opening-s...-daniel-penny-trial-jordan/story?id=115213409

 

[Izzylizzy]

Not from what I’ve seen other than the one witness who concluded that from the video… might have missed it…

IMO:
Since that witness was Dr Harris the medical examiner and her homicide conclusion was signed off by Dr. Graham the Chief medical Examiner certainly gives credence to her conclusion.

Plus we heard on the video when LE arrived the officer said to the others that JN was not breathing.
The actions of DP for 6 mins with a video as evidence clearly shows why JN was left unconscious,lifeless and not breathing and the process of what happens to the human body when deprived of oxygen for 6 mins by strangulation.

 

[justtrish]

I once saw a homeless man on a corner screaming for help. He was in a wheelchair. I quickly wheeled him into the lobby of the hotel where we were staying, yelling for the staff to call "911". It was about 20° outside. I clearly thought I was saving his life.

The staff moved slowly and nonchalantly. The EMS arrived, rolled their eyes, and put him on a stretcher slowly, not doing any checks on his condition. Apparently, he was a "regular" on that particular corner.

Who knew? I thought he was going to die, and I was "rescuing" him.

I still think about that, I was so into "rescue" mode. And they were just doing their "job", another day, another homeless guy.

I wonder if EMS gets very tired of "saving" street people, to the point that they dehumanize them.

I would think about what you would think/do if you encountered that same man say once a week as you passed by him going about your daily activities. How would you change your behavior the second time or third or fourth time you see the same man yelling for help. I don't think people "get tired", it's just they might base their need to rush on past history with a person.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

IMO:
Since that witness was Dr Harris the medical examiner and her homicide conclusion was signed off by Dr. Graham the Chief medical Examiner certainly gives credence to her conclusion.

Plus we heard on the video when LE arrived the officer said to the others that JN was not breathing.
The actions of DP for 6 mins with a video as evidence clearly shows why JN was left unconscious,lifeless and not breathing and the process of what happens to the human body when deprived of oxygen for 6 mins by strangulation.

Since the trial isn’t finished and defense hasn’t called their witnesses yet, and I had some questions about the testimony, I’m withholding judgment personally, and I gave my opinion.. moo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Since the trial isn’t finished and defense hasn’t called their witnesses yet, and I had some questions about the testimony, I’m withholding judgment personally, and I gave my opinion.. moo

IMO:
I expect the defense to call their experts who will throw everything but the kitchen sink to try and convince the jury that yes,JN died, but not at the hands of DP.
It's the same road we've all followed in other trials.
I'm still with DP killed JN by strangulation and the prosecution will make that very clear in closing.