Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Izzylizzy]

If you put some one in a choke hold for 30 secs and then let them go, what happens? Really curious and I want to know the text book answer.

From what I've read there are different types of "chokeholds".
Bottom line in training is they can be deadly, as we've seen.

 

[Izzylizzy]

"When troubled subway rider Jordan Neely threatened "I will kill" on a crowded subway train, Daniel Penny felt he had to intervene to protect other riders, defense lawyer Thomas Kenniff told jurors.

"When Neely threatened to kill, there was only one thing that Daniel Penny could do,” Kenniff said. "

BBM
From opening statements today, from this :

Daniel Penny trial live updates from Nov. 1

Follow The Post’s live updates for the latest news from the trial, in which Daniel Penny is accused of manslaughter for placing Jordan Neely in a chokehold after the homeless man acted erratically …

nypost.com

BBM:
There were other things Penny could have done along the way too besides choking Neely to death.

 

[acutename]

From what I've read there are different types of "chokeholds".
Bottom line in training is they can be deadly, as we've seen.

I just do not understand how subdued someone would be if they were quickly let go- is the idea to have them be unconscious but still alive? Seems like it could easily go either way. And I am not a Marine so .....

 

[Rolypolyoly]

If you put some one in a choke hold for 30 secs and then let them go, what happens? Really curious and I want to know the text book answer.

Possibly not the answer you are looking for, but Google is as much your friend as it is mine. These are just two explanations I found quickly, and are quite informative.

English translation - BloodChokes

TECHNIQUES AND SAFETY WHEN USING BLOOD CHOKES Preface and Disclaimer Blood Chokes is a martial arts technique intended to pacify the recipient in a safe and psychologically very effective way, but which may, under the wrong conditions, have fatal (literally)...Read more

bloodchokes.com

Air Chokes vs Blood Chokes – What’s Better?

selfdefensetutorials.com

The hold Penny used and was trained in is reported to be the blood choke.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I just do not understand how subdued someone would be if they were quickly let go- is the idea to have them be unconscious but still alive? Seems like it could easily go either way. And I am not a Marine so .....

I feel like between Penny and the two other guys who were assisting to hold Neely, they could easily have kept him subdued once he came round after 40 seconds, that would also give the othe passengers time to move cars. I believe the reports say that only 30 seconds passed between Penny placing the choke and the train arriving at the next stop? I would have to check back on that so don't take my word for it.

 

[acutename]

Possibly not the answer you are looking for, but Google is as much your friend as it is mine. These are just two explanations I found quickly, and are quite informative.

English translation - BloodChokes

TECHNIQUES AND SAFETY WHEN USING BLOOD CHOKES Preface and Disclaimer Blood Chokes is a martial arts technique intended to pacify the recipient in a safe and psychologically very effective way, but which may, under the wrong conditions, have fatal (literally)...Read more

bloodchokes.com

Air Chokes vs Blood Chokes – What’s Better?

selfdefensetutorials.com

The hold Penny used and was trained in is reported to be the blood choke.

and it says not to leave the person on their back to avoid a tongue asphyxiation
really hope I never need to know this IRL

 

[Izzylizzy]

I just do not understand how subdued someone would be if they were quickly let go- is the idea to have them be unconscious but still alive? Seems like it could easily go either way. And I am not a Marine so .....

I can't find an approved link source so you can look them up.
Blood chokes and air chokes, but they’re not created equal.

 

[Izzylizzy]

It's going to be interesting just what will make this trial run approx 6 weeks.
I assume then that the number of witnesses and experts will be astounding .

Questions Facing Daniel Penny Jurors As Day 6 Of ...

Newsweek
https://www.newsweek.com › daniel-penny-trial-jordan...

4 days ago — Initial pools of potential jurors were asked about their ability to serve on a trial that could last up to six weeks. Potential jurors who ...

 

[Izzylizzy]

I disagree with you. He did not start the situation, Neely did. He announced that he was going to create a problem and potentially hurt someone on that subway. DP did "step up" to the situation and protected other people from harm.

DP wasn't criminally charged for "stepping in/up"
He was charged with killing Jordan Neely.
2 charges.

'Manslaughter in the second degree'
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

SECTION 125.10
Criminally negligent homicide
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
https://www.nysenate.gov/

 

[Ontario Mom]

I truly hope if I'm ever on a NY subway that a Daniel Penny is in the subway car that I'm in. IMO, if he had not stepped in, we would be reading about the injuries and maybe even death of people who were on that subway.

100%. Our family has had so many conversations about this case, and everyone agrees they'd want a Daniel Penny in the same car.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Yep..totally indifferent, during and after killing Jordan Penny.


“This man, took it upon himself to take down Jordan Neely. To neutralize him,” prosecutor Dafna Yoran told jurors of Penny during opening statements Friday.

The two sides presenting vastly different pictures of what transpired during the chokehold. Yoran argued the Marine veteran was specifically trained in chokeholds. He understood their potency. He “went too far” – and was criminally negligent.

She further added that Penny — trained in CPR — didn’t attempt to revive Neely, but instead grabbed his hat that had fallen of his head, dusted himself off and waited for police. The line drew gasps from Neely’s supporters."

Daniel Penny stoic on first day in court as prosecution and defense present very different versions of Jordan Neely subway death

Neely’s story is culmination of societal failures on many levels, but Penny shouldn’t have to pay for that broken system.

nypost.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don't know. But we also need to look at the adrenaline in the perpetrator, who believed that Neely was a threat to other people. Penny may have been just as scared.

I once rode in an ambulance, as a ride along, and the lights and sirens were screaming away. I noticed, the vehicle was only going 25 mph, but when you see them go by, they seem to be "flying", going fast.

So, we really don't know about how Penny was feeling at the time. Was he scared too? So maybe he had no clue how long he had Neely in a headlock.

BBM:
Penny was told by a bystander that he was killing Neely and would be charged with murder..audio/video evidence that the defense tried to get prohibited from trial with no success.
He still held Neely in the chokehold while Neely was having body spasms which indicates the person is dying then he continued for another minute after Neely went lifeless.
Penny was trained and knew chokeholds could be deadly and chose not to stop.
When he did stop he left Neely mostly face down on the floor of the subway car and walked away from him.
When LE arrived they turned Neely over, he wasn't breathing but still had a pulse.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

100%. Our family has had so many conversations about this case, and everyone agrees they'd want a Daniel Penny in the same car.

On the flip side, have you discussed how you would feel if your relative was the mentally ill person who entered the train acting in a manner perceived to be threatening, and another passengers actions, albeit with good intentions, killed them?. Genuine question, not meant to be provoking.
I ask as someone who sees both sides, and lands somewhere in the middle. It's not DP initial action I have an issue with, but the outcome of his decision not to stop, even when warned of the consequences, and even after the train had stopped.

 

[Ontario Mom]

On the flip side, have you discussed how you would feel if your relative was the mentally ill person who entered the train acting in a manner perceived to be threatening, and another passengers actions, albeit with good intentions, killed them?. Genuine question, not meant to be provoking.
I ask as someone who sees both sides, and lands somewhere in the middle. It's not DP initial action I have an issue with, but the outcome of his decision not to stop, even when warned of the consequences, and even after the train had stopped.

Oh indeed we have. We've asked each other, what if... (brother's name) was the one on the train threatening to kill people, demanding food, money, and all the other ranting and raving he was doing... and ran into Daniel Penny that day. Without exception, all agree they'd still support what DP tried to do to protect innocent people on that train car, knowing full well he never intended to kill the man, but simply restrain him until police arrived. The end result was a tragic accident, not a crime.

The fact that DP didn't release his hold on him, nothwithstanding. There's no way he could have known that if he released his hold, JN wouldn't jump right up as soon as he was able, and make good on his threats. While DP didn't know JN's violent criminal past, he didn't need to. He heard him first hand threaten to kill people. If my son or brother or any other family member did that, I'd hope to God someone would have the courage to step up, intervene and stop him before he actually did it.

jmo

 

[Leve]

Interesting that he had a pulse when LE arrived but they refused to do mouth to mouth. They also gave him a shot of Narcan.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Oh indeed we have. We've asked each other, what if... (brother's name) was the one on the train threatening to kill people, demanding food, money, and all the other ranting and raving he was doing... and ran into Daniel Penny that day. Without exception, all agree they'd still support what DP tried to do to protect innocent people on that train car, knowing full well he never intended to kill the man, but simply restrain him until police arrived. The end result was a tragic accident, not a crime.

The fact that DP didn't release his hold on him, nothwithstanding. There's no way he could have known that if he released his hold, JN wouldn't jump right up as soon as he was able, and make good on his threats. While DP didn't know JN's violent criminal past, he didn't need to. He heard him first hand threaten to kill people. If my son or brother or any other family member did that, I'd hope to God someone would have the courage to step up, intervene and stop him before he actually did it.

jmo

BBM:
It was 3 against one and the fear could have been if released from the chokehold JN would be able to carry out threats?

For that to have happened the 3 guys would have had to just stand by and watch,

When most of the passengers got off the subway car at the next stop DP still didn't let up on the chokehold.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Interesting that he had a pulse when LE arrived but they refused to do mouth to mouth. They also gave him a shot of Narcan.

Mouth to mouth isn't recommended anymore.
I don't know how long medics waited to see if the Narcan would resuscitate JN before they began CPR.
When police arrived Neely wasn't breathing but still had a pulse which happens when a person is experiencing respiratory arrest,

Why Is Mouth-to-Mouth No Longer Recommended for CPR?

Mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is no longer recommended for lay rescuers performing CPR. Learn why & see what you can do in an emergency.

www.aedleader.com

 

[Leve]

Mouth to mouth isn't recommended anymore.
I don't know how long medics waited to see if the Narcan would resuscitate JN before they began CPR.
When police arrived Neely wasn't breathing but still had a pulse which happens when a person is experiencing respiratory arrest,

Why Is Mouth-to-Mouth No Longer Recommended for CPR?

Mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is no longer recommended for lay rescuers performing CPR. Learn why & see what you can do in an emergency.

www.aedleader.com

Or he appeared homeless and they didn't want to chance hepatitis.

They also moved him from the "recovery position" to flat on his back.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Or he appeared homeless and they didn't want to chance hepatitis.

They also moved him from the "recovery position" to flat on his back.

Yes, he appeared homeless and most likely a drug user plus it's no longer recommended for resuscitating someone.

Do you know if DP or one of the men holding down JP put him in a recovery position then left his lifeless body like that?

DP did tell the officer that "I took him out".

 

[Ontario Mom]

Or he appeared homeless and they didn't want to chance hepatitis.

They also moved him from the "recovery position" to flat on his back.

According to Sgt. Carl Johnson, you are correct.

"In testimony, Sgt. Carl Johnson confirmed that body camera footage showed responding officers did not give Neely possibly lifesaving mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and didn't start chest compressions until minutes after arriving at his limp body. Neely did not have a weapon when he was on the train, police said. After patting down Neely while he was unconscious and searching the pockets of a black hoodie, the only object in the man's possession at the time of his death was an unwrapped muffin, police officer Teodoro Tejada told jurors. "He was an apparent drug user and he was very dirty," Johnson said, explaining he did not instruct his officers to give Neely mouth-to-mouth out of fear they might contract AIDS or another disease." NYC subway chokehold death trial begins: Daniel Penny faces manslaughter charges