Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[mickey2942]

Most veterans don't admit to their mental health issues. Which makes treatment more difficult. The typical vet, with problems, generally self medicates with alcohol until they hit rock bottom. The opposite, is the one that keeps everything bottled in as tight as a drum, with out of control OCD, perfectionism, workaholic, and sees everything "black or white". People are "good or bad" nothing in between.

People who have not been in the military, really don't understand the strange overwhelming feelings when you leave the military. In the military, there are very few choices to make. Your clothes are the same, your schedule is dictated, your food is generic, cafeteria food. Even your "free" time, is usually spent working out, so you don't embarrass yourself at mandatory PT.

Then, you leave that environment. And everything hits you...you have a million choices to make every day.

Not justifying anything. Just showing a perspective.

 

[jepop]

Most veterans don't admit to their mental health issues. Which makes treatment more difficult. The typical vet, with problems, generally self medicates with alcohol until they hit rock bottom. The opposite, is the one that keeps everything bottled in as tight as a drum, with out of control OCD, perfectionism, workaholic, and sees everything "black or white". People are "good or bad" nothing in between.

People who have not been in the military, really don't understand the strange overwhelming feelings when you leave the military. In the military, there are very few choices to make. Your clothes are the same, your schedule is dictated, your food is generic, cafeteria food. Even your "free" time, is usually spent working out, so you don't embarrass yourself at mandatory PT.

Then, you leave that environment. And everything hits you...you have a million choices to make every day.

Not justifying anything. Just showing a perspective.

Appreciate your perspective. Problem is that this is not what DP's defense is presenting. It's all speculation and jury can only go by the arguments presented in court. If D were to argue along these lines they would need to have DP testify and come across credibly and/or have an expert who assessed him for mental health/PTSD? testify. All indications seem to point away from this and it is definitely too late for a MH assessment if not already done and in the discovery. When I get time will try to see if there are witness lists for the trial, unless anyone else knows this already?

 

[mickey2942]

Appreciate your perspective. Problem is that this is not what DP's defense is presenting. It's all speculation and jury can only go by the arguments presented in court. If D were to argue along these lines they would need to have DP testify and come across credibly and/or have an expert who assessed him for mental health/PTSD? testify. All indications seem to point away from this and it is definitely too late for a MH assessment if not already done and in the discovery. When I get time will try to see if there are witness lists for the trial, unless anyone else knows this already?

I don't think that his defense team is really looking at all of the angles here. Not all veterans even have these reactions, so it wouldn't be unusual for them to not bring this forward. It is nuanced, and multilayered, usually found when veterans have blown out of jobs, family, friends, even medical providers, and usually when someone who really cares about the vet, and the vet really cares about the relationship with that person, is it even brought forward for assessment and treatment.

So far, I see the defense as either blaming the victim, or that DP should have never been charged. That is probably not going to work well, and they are probably hoping for a holdout and mistrial. Or appeallate issues, which is not a good plan.

Just my own opinions. FWIW.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Sigh...
IMO..
Without Jordan Neely's actions, his threats, his behaviors etc, none of this would have happened. There would have been no one to stop. No one to subdue or restrain. No one to hide their child behind a stroller in fear.

The outcome was un-intended. Sad, but true.

Cause and effect.

'Coulda, shoulda, woulda' does not make one guilty.

MOO and Peace

BBM:
IMO:
The only "cause and effect" legally relevant is Penny's deadly chokehold on an unarmed man who didn't assault anyone.
Victim blaming is not a great legal defense when unwarranted lethal force is used.

Doctors Have Long Warned That Chokeholds Are Deadly​

The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › 2023/05/04 › health › chok...

May 4, 2023 — Dr. Altaf Saadi, a neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, explained that chokeholds and strangleholds could kill or cause brain injuries in two ways.

 

[Izzylizzy]

"Penny served in the Marine Corps from 2017–2021 as an infantryman, according to Marine spokesman Maj. Jim Stenger. While Penny was in the Individual Ready Reserve, he was promoted to sergeant.

"He deployed to the Mediterranean with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit from December 2018 to July 2019, Stenger told Marine Corps Times on Friday.

Penny was last assigned to 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines, an infantry unit that falls under 2nd Marine Division, based at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

His military awards include the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Humanitarian Service Medal and Sea Service Deployment Ribbon, twice, according to Stenger.

“We are aware of the incident and will cooperate with the agencies investigating this incident if asked,” Stenger said in a statement to Marine Corps Times."

Marine vet accused of putting man in deadly chokehold on NYC subway

Daniel J. Penny, 24, has not been charged in the death of Jordan Neely, 30.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Did DP testify before the Grand Jury?
I haven't seen anything to confirm it.
???

"Most defendants do not testify to a grand jury themselves, but the New York Times reported that Penny planned to appear before the grand jury under oath."

'New York grand jury indicts former Marine in killing of Jordan Neely​

New York grand jury indicts former Marine in killing of Jordan Neely

A New York grand jury voted on Wednesday to indict Daniel Penny, a former U.S. Marine sergeant, in last month's killing of Jordan Neely, a homeless man, with a chokehold on a Manhattan subway car, a person familiar with the case said.

www.reuters.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

IMO:
I'm surprised that there was no follow-up from reporters, they're known to keep an eye on who enters and exists where the Grand Jury is seated when a high profile case is involved.

It's a dicey situation for defendants to testify, their lawyers are not permitted during their testimony or any witnesses's testimonies but the defendant can go outside the room and speak with their lawyer before answering a question.

If DP does testify in his trial then he could be questioned by the prosecution about his Grand Jury testimony so it's a wait and see.


"The man, Daniel Penny, would testify in his own defense next month. The move appears to reflect his lawyers’ confidence that Mr. Penny, a Marine veteran, can shape the way jurors view the highly publicized and politically charged episode on an F train earlier this month.

Mr. Penny’s plan to testify signals that his lawyers feel confident that he could represent himself well in front of a grand jury.

Former prosecutors said that given the unusual circumstances of the charge against Mr. Penny, the plan to have him testify made sense.

“They’re going to be playing up the humanity of this guy 100 percent,” said Thomas Schiels, a 30-year veteran of the Manhattan district attorney’s office. “He’s got a great military background, he’s apparently never been arrested before, he’s going to be fairly well-spoken and his claim, though not a legal self-defense perhaps, is certainly going to be appealing to much of the general public.”

Daniel Penny Plans to Testify Before Grand Jury in Subway Chokehold Case (Published 2023)

Daniel Penny, charged with manslaughter in the killing of Jordan Neely, is expected to argue that he acted in self-defense.

www.nytimes.com

​

 

[Ontario Mom]

I hope he testifies. Maybe hearing his position directly from him, might help folks understand where he was coming from that day. Maybe it'll put to rest the idea that he doesn't appear to care that JN died. I don't really know where that came from, this idea that he doesn't appear to be remorseful or even sorry that a man died. I've never seen him quoted as saying any such thing but it continues to be the narrative with some. Either way, I'd like to hear from him directly. Not what someone else thinks he thinks, but what he thinks and more importantly what he was thinking that day, in the moment.

I've given this a lot of thought, and there's still so much we just don't know.
That day, there was also a ton of information DP also didn't know.

- He didn't know what JN was capable of (we do, because we know his violent criminal history)
- He didn't know if JN was suddenly still, just waiting for DP to let go (we know now, but he didn't then)
- He didn't know if he was armed (we know he wasn't, but DP didn't know that)
- He didn't know if he was still a threat even after the passengers left (we know, but DP couldn't have known)

There's been a ton of Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this case on both sides but none of us were there, in DP shoes, in that moment. I think hearing directly from him might clear up several questions or presuppositions.

jmo

 

[mickey2942]

I am not so sure about Penny testifying. He may come off as arrogant and self righteous. Which would turn me off immediately. I have personally not seen any real contrition in his demeanor.

If he gets angry and frustrated on Cross, it won't go over well.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I hope he testifies. Maybe hearing his position directly from him, might help folks understand where he was coming from that day. Maybe it'll put to rest the idea that he doesn't appear to care that JN died. I don't really know where that came from, this idea that he doesn't appear to be remorseful or even sorry that a man died. I've never seen him quoted as saying any such thing but it continues to be the narrative with some. Either way, I'd like to hear from him directly. Not what someone else thinks he thinks, but what he thinks and more importantly what he was thinking that day, in the moment.

I've given this a lot of thought, and there's still so much we just don't know.
That day, there was also a ton of information DP also didn't know.

- He didn't know what JN was capable of (we do, because we know his violent criminal history)
- He didn't know if JN was suddenly still, just waiting for DP to let go (we know now, but he didn't then)
- He didn't know if he was armed (we know he wasn't, but DP didn't know that)
- He didn't know if he was still a threat even after the passengers left (we know, but DP couldn't have known)

There's been a ton of Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this case on both sides but none of us were there, in DP shoes, in that moment. I think hearing directly from him might clear up several questions or presuppositions.

jmo

There was 3 on 1 so Neely wasn't going anywhere no less get up from a chokehold and kill someone, which was what Penny believed he was going to do before taking him down.
Penny can't go back a rewrite history no matter how much wishful thinking because the evidence presented proves otherwise.
He's being prosecuted on his actions that led to JN's death, not what he thought.

From the get-go Penny showed NO concern for JN when he had him in the chokehold, when he let go of the chokehold, when he left JN laying there on his back motionless and just picked up his hat and just stood there.

DP was told by a bystander to get JN on his side which is a recovery position then DP told the same guy not to keep putting water on JN's head.
The audio of DP when LE first arrived has nothing on it from DP expressing any concern or remorse just his infamous words "I put him out" and that he was a Marine.
No concern also on DP's LE interrogation.
If there had been I believe the defense would have fought to have it entered so the jury could hear it.
imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

There was 3 on 1 so Neely wasn't going anywhere no less get up from a chokehold and kill someone, which was what Penny believed he was going to do before taking him down.
Penny can't go back a rewrite history no matter how much wishful thinking because the evidence presented proves otherwise.
He's being prosecuted on his actions that led to JN's death, not what he thought.

From the get-go Penny showed NO concern for JN when he had him in the chokehold, when he let go of the chokehold, when he left JN laying there on his back motionless and just picked up his hat and just stood there.

DP was told by a bystander to get JN on his side which is a recovery position then DP told the same guy not to keep putting water on JN's head.
The audio of DP when LE first arrived has nothing on it from DP expressing any concern or remorse just his infamous words "I put him out" and that he was a Marine.
No concern also on DP's LE interrogation.
If there had been I believe the defense would have fought to have it entered so the jury could hear it.
imo

Like I said, I'd like to hear what Daniel Penny thinks, in his own words.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am not so sure about Penny testifying. He may come off as arrogant and self righteous. Which would turn me off immediately. I have personally not seen any real contrition in his demeanor.

If he gets angry and frustrated on Cross, it won't go over well.

I sure wish we knew if he did testify before the Grand Jury.
If he did though it doesn't mean that he has to testify at his trial and his testimony isn't permitted at trial per-se.
Maybe as a last resort if his defense thinks it looks real bad for him?
There's always the croc-tears routine.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/21/1177435414/daniel-penny-interview-nyc-subway-killing-jordan-neely

 

[Ontario Mom]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/21/1177435414/daniel-penny-interview-nyc-subway-killing-jordan-neely

"It's tragic what happened to him. Hopefully, we can change the system that's so desperately failed us," he said. Penny went on to say that he felt no shame. When asked if he would do it again, he nodded and said, "I would — if there was a threat and danger in the present."

Spoken like a true military man, trained to protect. I grew up in a military town, and my family is full of military men (and cops) and every single one of them would say the same thing. Tragic? YES. Would they do it again? YES.

jmo

 

[Donswife48]

Yes, kindness might have further enraged him, but it might have calmed him. No one knows until they try. I fail to understand why skipping kindness and going straight to physical restraint is considered the best thing to do. As I said in my comment quoted here, if the kindness of offering food or water didn’t help, Penny could have then restrained Neely without killing him.

JMO

Just my opinion, in the same amount of time you want to offered kindness, he also could have harmed someone. We simply don't know. We do know that Neely was aggressive when he entered the subway car and that he said 'I don't care if I die. Kill me, lock me up, I don't care if I go to jail for life,'" We do know that people were frightened. JMO

 

[Donswife48]

There was 3 on 1 so Neely wasn't going anywhere no less get up from a chokehold and kill someone, which was what Penny believed he was going to do before taking him down.
Penny can't go back a rewrite history no matter how much wishful thinking because the evidence presented proves otherwise.
He's being prosecuted on his actions that led to JN's death, not what he thought.

From the get-go Penny showed NO concern for JN when he had him in the chokehold, when he let go of the chokehold, when he left JN laying there on his back motionless and just picked up his hat and just stood there.

DP was told by a bystander to get JN on his side which is a recovery position then DP told the same guy not to keep putting water on JN's head.
The audio of DP when LE first arrived has nothing on it from DP expressing any concern or remorse just his infamous words "I put him out" and that he was a Marine.
No concern also on DP's LE interrogation.
If there had been I believe the defense would have fought to have it entered so the jury could hear it.
imo

I've also read that even a stun gun on a person who is high on certain drugs doesn't affect them. I don't know how DP would know that without the hold he had, that the others would be able to hold him down. I read that he was only waiting until the police arrived. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/21/1177435414/daniel-penny-interview-nyc-subway-killing-jordan-neely

Real interesting because stating you have "no shame" is a powerful indicator that one feels no remorse or guilt about something.
He also has the audacity to blame NY's system for him having killed a man.
And he'd do it all over again to boot.
I think if he were to take the stand everything that he's said can be used by the prosecution.
The prosecution claiming that Penny was "indifferent" is an understatement.


"It's tragic what happened to him. Hopefully, we can change the system that's so desperately failed us," he said.

Penny went on to say that he felt no shame. When asked if he would do it again, he nodded and said, "I would — if there was a threat and danger in the present."

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/21/1177435414/daniel-penny-interview-nyc-subway-killing-jordan-neely

 

[Izzylizzy]

I've also read that even a stun gun on a person who is high on certain drugs doesn't affect them. I don't know how DP would know that without the hold he had, that the others would be able to hold him down. I read that he was only waiting until the police arrived. JMO

DP kept the chokehold on JN for a minute after he went lifeless.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Real interesting because stating you have "no shame" is a powerful indicator that one feels no remorse or guilt about something.
He also has the audacity to blame NY's system for him having killed a man.
And he'd do it all over again to boot.
I think if he were to take the stand everything that he's said can be used by the prosecution.
The prosecution claiming that Penny was "indifferent" is an understatement.


"It's tragic what happened to him. Hopefully, we can change the system that's so desperately failed us," he said.

Penny went on to say that he felt no shame. When asked if he would do it again, he nodded and said, "I would — if there was a threat and danger in the present."

All of this!

 

[LinasK]

I don't know that it would have been any sort of signal to Penny to release his grip.
It was a heated moment, and lots of adrenaline going I'm sure.
Regardless of whatever training folks like to say Penny had or what he should or shouldn't have known or done, there's no way anyone can know what was going through his head in the heat of that moment and if he would have even noticed JN urinating on himself (if that's in fact what happened)

jmo

Involuntary loss of control of bowel/bladder is what happens when a person is dying. Not at all the same as having dirty pants. It doesn't take medical training to know this.