Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Izzylizzy]

JMO and just my experience we don’t know 100% that he was brain dead since she made her decision from viewing a video.

Again JMO and experience.

A video and a man who when LE arrived was unconscious, unresponsive,wasn't breathing and had a faint pulse which soon vanished along with her viewing the video and pointing out step by step to the jury the dying process of JN from a lack of oxygen.
"Looks like a duck" to me too.

 

[IDK]

IMO only, in such a high profile case, I’m surprised they did not have the Chief Medical examiner perform the autopsy.
I understand that the ME’s supervisor did sign off on her finding, which is not quite the same, IMO.

Just curious if defendants are ever able to request a private autopsy at their own expense? I am not familiar with the legal aspects.

 

[IceIce9]

A video and a man who when LE arrived was unconscious, unresponsive,wasn't breathing and had a faint pulse which soon vanished along with her viewing the video and pointing out step by step to the jury the dying process of JN from a lack of oxygen.
"Looks like a duck" to me too.

Unresponsive and not breathing are the indications to begin CPR immediately. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

This article about autopsies is for the press and has some very good and relevant information.

7 Common Mistakes Regarding Autopsy Reports

by Dr. Judy Melinek When a breaking news case involves a sudden, unnatural or violent death, journalists will often get a copy of the autopsy report. Autopsy reports can be daunting to read if you have not been trained in medicine. Because of this, reports in the media can be confusing or...

ditacademy.org

 

[Lilibet]

IMO only, in such a high profile case, I’m surprised they did not have the Chief Medical examiner perform the autopsy.
I understand that the ME’s supervisor did sign off on her finding, which is not quite the same, IMO.

Just curious if defendants are ever able to request a private autopsy at their own expense? I am not familiar with the legal aspects.

These points are covered in the article I just posted.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Unresponsive and not breathing are the indications to begin CPR immediately. JMO

It's also an indication of an OD.
What could CPR and the defibrillator have done when you've beem deprived of oxygen for 6 mins?

If they had a life support machine there that would have worked, that is until he was taken off it then died.

jmo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Thank you for this post!. K2 is merely a defense strategy, designed in an effort to confuse a jury. And distract. Imo. Prosecution has presented sufficient evidence for a jury to convict BARD. I hope they are paying attention and understand the seriousness of the law. Jmo

The defense strategy is to give the jury exculpatory evidence about a dangerous drug that the ME ignored.

That's them doing their job to get an acquittal for the defendant in this case. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Thank you for this post!. K2 is merely a defense strategy, designed in an effort to confuse a jury. And distract. Imo. Prosecution has presented sufficient evidence for a jury to convict BARD. I hope they are paying attention and understand the seriousness of the law. Jmo

I too hope that they are paying attention to the details in the case and relevant statutes- As I see it the ME completely ignored the K2 and discounted the need to wait on the tox screen and that the tox screen my show something that could be contributing factors towards the MOD and possibly COD… the D is doing their job to present evidence to the jury on behalf of their client- moo

it’s been stated here and elsewhere that it doesn’t matter because it could have been weeks ago, but not as often do I see it does matter because it could have been 5 minutes ago and a user might be very much under the influence and acting erratically from K2…moo

I think it’s appropriate that the jury understand that K2 can be a powerful drug which might be a contributing factor in a death … again moo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Thank you for this post!. K2 is merely a defense strategy, designed in an effort to confuse a jury. And distract. Imo. Prosecution has presented sufficient evidence for a jury to convict BARD. I hope they are paying attention and understand the seriousness of the law. Jmo

This K2 data is from Dr. Harris's testimony yesterday.

"That chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone."

"Defense attorneys pressed about synthetic cannabinoids in Neely's system, otherwise known as the drug K2. Harris said of the 10,000 overdoses in New York City, seven were due to synthetic marijuana, and all of those people had abnormal hearts. Neely had a normal heart, she said.

Harris also testified there's no way to know how much K2 was in his system, and that synthetic cannabinoids are relatively new, and not a well understood class of drugs."

Prosecution rests in trial of Daniel Penny, accused in NYC subway chokehold death​

Prosecutors rested their case Monday in the trial of Daniel Penny, the Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on board a subway train last year.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[IceIce9]

It's also an indication of an OD.
What could CPR and the defibrillator have done when you've beem deprived of oxygen for 6 mins?

If they had a life support machine there that would have worked, that is until he was taken off it then died.

jmo

First Responders are trained to begin CPR immediately if victim is unresponsive and not breathing. They don’t attempt to judge whether the victim has brain damage or other injuries. Not starting CPR is failure of duty to act.

<modsnip: No link to information stated as fact>

 

[Izzylizzy]

First Responders are trained to begin CPR immediately if victim is unresponsive and not breathing. They don’t attempt to judge whether the victim has brain damage or other injuries. Not starting CPR is failure of duty to act.

And people have survived oxygen deprivation of 8 minutes or more when CPR has been initiated immediately.

BBM
Survived in what condition?
imo:
Had JN survived if all was done according to what you've laid out DP would also have been criminally charged for leaving JN brain-dead or brain damaged.
After 6 minutes of being deprived of oxygen and the state Jn was in the next step would most likely have been life support.
DP would have been criminally charged with that condition of JN then if JN died when taken off life support DP would mostly likely be looking at the charges he's on trial for.

What You Need to Know About Brain Oxygen Deprivation

How long can the brain go without oxygen before permanent brain damage occurs? The answer varies depending on different factors. Learn more now.

www.spinalcord.com

What You Need to Know About Brain Oxygen Deprivation​

Spinal Cord, Inc.
https://www.spinalcord.com › blog › what-happens-afte...




At the one-minute mark, brain cells begin dying. At three minutes, neurons suffer more extensive damage, and lasting brain damage becomes more likely. At five ...

 

[IDK]

---

These points are covered in the article I just posted.

Thank you very much for posting.

 

[PrairieWind]

This K2 data is from Dr. Harris's testimony yesterday.

"That chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone."

"Defense attorneys pressed about synthetic cannabinoids in Neely's system, otherwise known as the drug K2. Harris said of the 10,000 overdoses in New York City, seven were due to synthetic marijuana, and all of those people had abnormal hearts. Neely had a normal heart, she said.

Harris also testified there's no way to know how much K2 was in his system, and that synthetic cannabinoids are relatively new, and not a well understood class of drugs."

Prosecution rests in trial of Daniel Penny, accused in NYC subway chokehold death​

Prosecutors rested their case Monday in the trial of Daniel Penny, the Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on board a subway train last year.

www.cbsnews.com

I wanted to point out something. The Doctor stating that "that chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone" statement is a bit dicey. If I had been the defense attorney, that statement would have been challenged/objected to immediately or I would likely have moved in pretrial to prevent it being said at all. A doctor cannot make that statement. It was challenged under cross I think fairly effectively however. We will see if the defense hammers this, especially in closing.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I wanted to point out something. The Doctor stating that "that chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone" statement is a bit dicey. If I had been the defense attorney, that statement would have been challenged/objected to immediately or I would likely have moved in pretrial to prevent it being said at all. A doctor cannot make that statement. It was challenged under cross I think fairly effectively however. We will see if the defense hammers this, especially in closing.

I agree.
imo:
It was a real poor analogy that gave the defense something to really run with.

Yet..I get where Harris is coming from.
No matter what drugs a person has in their system or what health conditions they have depriving someone of oxygen for 6 mins and being able to see the video of how that left him unconscious, unresponsive, not breathing with a faint pulse that soon vanished would have left anyone brain dead.
If need be I gather the prosecution will clean that statement up on closing with their rebuttal.

 

[Sillybilly]

I wanted to point out something. The Doctor stating that "that chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone" statement is a bit dicey. If I had been the defense attorney, that statement would have been challenged/objected to immediately or I would likely have moved in pretrial to prevent it being said at all. A doctor cannot make that statement. It was challenged under cross I think fairly effectively however. We will see if the defense hammers this, especially in closing.

Why do you think the doctor should not have made that statement?

Would it have been any different had she said from a medical perspective "Any person having their air supply cut off for that amount of time would die" rather than referencing the chokehold specifically?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858924690187653346

 

[PrairieWind]

Why do you think the doctor should not have made that statement?

Would it have been any different had she said from a medical perspective "Any person having their air supply cut off for that amount of time would die" rather than referencing the chokehold specifically?

Yes, that statement would be what should have said. But what the doctor cannot say is whether the "chokehold" is being flexed to allow breath and then tightened, or at any time what the pressure is. The doctor can't know that. The testimony should be that if air is totally constricted, the result will be......."
I have a huge problem with experts being allowed to testify to things they can't know and that because they have been admitted as experts, their statements carry extra weight. It is a criticism of judges not truly following the rules of evidence.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858902564684595328

 

[Izzylizzy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858902564684595328

IMO:
DP's character witness's can swear he walks on water and I say "good for him" but it has absolutely nothing to do with his use of lethal force that killed JN.

 

[Izzylizzy]

<modsnip>

"Jurors on Friday also saw images of Neely’s corpse, which Harris testified showed bruising and crushed blood vessels – known as “hemorrhages” – in his neck, caused by a “considerable amount of constrictive, squeezing force.”

Daniel Penny chokehold caused Jordan Neely death, even if homeless man had enough drugs in system to ‘put down an elephant’: ME testimony

The medical examiner who ruled Jordan Neely’s death was a homicide caused by Daniel Penny’s chokehold insisted Friday she’d stand by the ruling.

nypost.com