Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Lilibet]

At this point, if I'm on the jury? Daniel Penny is going home.

jmo

Because?

 

[Donswife48]

Neely's character? I think that's a difficult question because JN was schizophrenic and unemedicated, which I believe hugely contributed to his violent crimes. He had well documented mental health issues and was considered dangerous due to these issues, I don't think that we can really judge his character by this, when he was medicated he was said to be a pretty sweet guy. His mental health doesn't speak to his character IMO.
Sadly he was let down, like so many others, by a lack of services, and he ended up paying with his life.
This doesn't negate the awful damage inflicted on other innocent victims by JN, and he most certainly had the potential to be dangerous, I just think we should be objective and ask ourselves if he would have been dangerous and violent if he wasn't unmedicated and suffering. Maybe there are people who knew him before that would be willing to stand up and testify to his good character?.

Where are the character witnesses for Neely? If he was on medication, why were there other drugs in his system. How would DP or anyone on the subway car know he was a pretty sweet guy?

 

[IDK]

This is an older article but has good information that I’m posting to clear up some details. Daniel Penny is the person who directed others in the subway car to call police. He also left JN in a recovery position:

“Police told CBS News, the BBC's US partner, that Mr Penny had told other passengers to call emergency services during the struggle.
Video shows him putting Mr Neely into a recovery position after he goes limp.”

Jordan Neely: What happened in NYC subway chokehold case? - BBC News

Video shows Daniel Penny with his arms around Jordan Neely's neck for about two minutes and 55 seconds.

www.bbc.com

 

[Lilibet]

Even IF Neely was a criminal, or even a murderer, it wasn't up to Daniel Penny to be judge, jury, and executioner! That's what the justice system is for. No one could know Neely's intentions prior to an act of violence, that's why LE doesn't charge crimes before they are committed.

BBM

This is such an important point that seems to have been overlooked by many. Not one of us has been given the right or responsibility to be judge, jury and executioner. Once Mr Neely had been subdued, no one’s life was in danger. He could have been restrained in a non-lethal way until LE arrived. I don’t understand why so many seem to think that Mr Penny was justified in choking him to death.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Where are the character witnesses for Neely? If he was on medication, why were there other drugs in his system. How would DP or anyone on the subway car know he was a pretty sweet guy?

Neely being a “pretty sweet guy” when he was on meds is just as irrelevant as Penny being a wonderful person (I expect he was). Neely doesn’t need character witnesses. All that matters here AFTER Penny took Neely down (which was justified and brave) is that he maintained the chokehold long enough to kill Neely, despite being warned that he was. The character of either man doesn’t matter.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

IMO:
As of today the defense strategy is trying to set up a battle between their "Golden Boy Hero" and the "Evil Spawn Victim".
This can be highly offensive to jurors when the victim is dead and didn't hurt anyone to get killed.
I can't comprehend why the defense is putting on the character witnesses now and not at the end of the trial.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Where are the character witnesses for Neely? If he was on medication, why were there other drugs in his system. How would DP or anyone on the subway car know he was a pretty sweet guy?

Neely isn't on trial, he is the victim, you can't really call character witnesses if you're dead!

He wasn't medicated, that was the whole point of my post explaining that he was schizophrenic and unmedicated. If you read any of the many articles posted in this thread you will read that he was self medicating with alcohol and K2. Have you read anything of Neely's background?

Penny didn't need to know if Neely was a sweet guy in order to not choke him to death. He just needed to know when to let go.

 

[Lilibet]

Penny didn't need to know if Neely was a sweet guy in order to not choke him to death. He just needed to know when to let go.

BBM

Exactly. He was informed by several people that he was killing Mr Neely. So he knew when he needed to let go and chose not to. That is why he has been charged with manslaughter in the second degree which means he recklessly caused the death of another person, as well as criminally negligent homicide, when with criminal negligence he caused the death of another person.

JMO

 

[Halloqueenie]

Thank you! Putting someone in a chokehold is not a requirement to restrain someone, particularly when you are 3:1. That is inexcusable.

 

[Ontario Mom]

BBM

This is such an important point that seems to have been overlooked by many. Not one of us has been given the right or responsibility to be judge, jury and executioner. Once Mr Neely had been subdued, no one’s life was in danger. He could have been restrained in a non-lethal way until LE arrived. I don’t understand why so many seem to think that Mr Penny was justified in choking him to death.

JMO

You presume because some have expressed contradictory opinions from yours, that those holding to those opinions have overlooked important points.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I've never had the impression DP saw himself as judge, jury and executioner as you suggest. From all reports, he was attemptimg to temporarily prevent JN from carrying out whatever threats of violence he was ranting about. That's it. No more, no less. As soon as LE arrived he stepped back and allowed them to do their job.

You presume that once JN had been restrained he was no longer a threat. Yet, I cannot possibly know that, and neither does anyone else. We don't know if he would have gained composure if the grip was released, and carried out his threats against anyone in his way. Or if he would have calmed down and the rest of the transit would have been uneventful. No one knows that. Most importantly, DP didn't know that.

Last, not a single person posting on this thread has ever stated that DP was "justified" in choking a man to death. There's a world of difference between that, and the consequences of one's violent actions, as took place in this tragic case. JN instigated this confrontation, there is no argument there, DP attempted with the best of intentions, as far as can be deduced, to de-escalate the situation, and it ended tragically with a young man's death.

I don't believe a crime was committed in this case, at all. My hope is, the jury sees it the same way.

jmo

 

[Snoopster]

Neely's character? I think that's a difficult question because JN was schizophrenic and unemedicated, which I believe hugely contributed to his violent crimes. He had well documented mental health issues and was considered dangerous due to these issues, I don't think that we can really judge his character by this, when he was medicated he was said to be a pretty sweet guy. His mental health doesn't speak to his character IMO.
Sadly he was let down, like so many others, by a lack of services, and he ended up paying with his life.
This doesn't negate the awful damage inflicted on other innocent victims by JN, and he most certainly had the potential to be dangerous, I just think we should be objective and ask ourselves if he would have been dangerous and violent if he wasn't unmedicated and suffering. Maybe there are people who knew him before that would be willing to stand up and testify to his good character?.

Well said.

 

[Snoopster]

You presume because some have expressed contradictory opinions from yours, that those holding to those opinions have overlooked important points.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I've never had the impression DP saw himself as judge, jury and executioner as you suggest. From all reports, he was attemptimg to temporarily prevent JN from carrying out whatever threats of violence he was ranting about. That's it. No more, no less. As soon as LE arrived he stepped back and allowed them to do their job.

You presume that once JN had been restrained he was no longer a threat. Yet, I cannot possibly know that, and neither does anyone else. We don't know if he would have gained composure if the grip was released, and carried out his threats against anyone in his way. Or if he would have calmed down and the rest of the transit would have been uneventful. No one knows that. Most importantly, DP didn't know that.

Last, not a single person posting on this thread has ever stated that DP was "justified" in choking a man to death. There's a world of difference between that, and the consequences of one's violent actions, as took place in this tragic case. JN instigated this confrontation, there is no argument there, DP attempted with the best of intentions, as far as can be deduced, to de-escalate the situation, and it ended tragically with a young man's death.

I don't believe a crime was committed in this case, at all. My hope is, the jury sees it the same way.

jmo

But others offered to help restrain JN if DP would just loosen up. But DP refused.
I think Penny saw himself as a saviour. He wanted to be a hero. And he got carried away and ended up killing someone. I don't think it was his intent but he was clearly reckless with someone else's life. JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

You presume that once JN had been restrained he was no longer a threat. Yet, I cannot possibly know that, and neither does anyone else. We don't know if he would have gained composure if the grip was released, and carried out his threats against anyone in his way. Or if he would have calmed down and the rest of the transit would have been uneventful. No one knows that. Most importantly, DP didn't know that.

Thank you for your response. Yes, Mr Neely could have become a threat if he wasn’t restrained. All I’ve been saying is that there were other ways to restrain Mr Neely by the three men besides a potentially lethal chokehold. In less than a minute everyone had left the car. LE was on their way. The threat had diminished, but Mr Neely still needed to be restrained, but not to the point of death. Mr Penny had been told he was killing him. Yet he held on and didn’t change tactics. That is why he is facing these charges.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I've never had the impression DP saw himself as judge, jury and executioner as you suggest. From all reports, he was attemptimg to temporarily prevent JN from carrying out whatever threats of violence he was ranting about. That's it. No more, no less. As soon as LE arrived he stepped back and allowed them to do their job.

I agree that Mr Penny did not realize that what he was doing in holding the chokehold too long was acting as judge, jury and executioner. I don’t believe he intended to kill Mr Neely. He thought he was preventing Mr Neely from harming others. But by continuing to maintain the chokehold longer than he should have and after the car was empty, he actually was acting as judge, jury and executioner, whether that was his intent or not.

Last, not a single person posting on this thread has ever stated that DP was "justified" in choking a man to death. There's a world of difference between that, and the consequences of one's violent actions, as took place in this tragic case. JN instigated this confrontation, there is no argument there, DP attempted with the best of intentions, as far as can be deduced, to de-escalate the situation, and it ended tragically with a young man's death.

I said many here “seem to think that Mr Penny was justified in choking him to death,” not that they have stated that. Thoughts can be deduced by opinions even if the specific words aren’t said. I’m sure you can deduce that I think Mr Penny should be found guilty even though I’ve never said those words before. When people keep circling back to what Mr Neely did in their defense of Mr Penny, while neglecting to acknowledge that the chokehold was too long, I can only deduce that they are justifying Mr Penny’s complete action of continuing the chokehold until Mr Neely died. No one is denying that Mr Neely’s actions precipitated this confrontation, or claiming that Mr Penny was wrong to restrain him to de-escalate the situation, but it seems that some cannot agree that his good intentions were carried too far, resulting in Mr Neely’s death. That is what he has been charged with.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Does anyone know who of the defense's witnesses so far is an "expert".

"There is no court Wednesday. The defense will call another expert witness on Thursday."

Daniel Penny's mother, fellow Marines take stand in NYC subway chokehold trial

Tuesday marked the first full day of the defense's case in the trial of Daniel Penny, the Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on board the subway last year.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Lilibet]

Just for the record, I will not celebrate a guilty verdict after hearing all the evidence, but I will be satisfied that a jury of Mr Penny’s peers does not believe he acted with proper concern for another person’s life. Mr Neely’s life had value and had he received proper treatment his life could have had meaning beyond his illness. A guilty verdict would send a message to others to be careful of someone’s life while protecting the lives of others. A guilty verdict will be a very unfortunate event in a seemingly decent young man’s life. I do feel for him. But neither verdict will bring back Mr Neely, and that is a tragedy I hope Mr Penny and his supporters acknowledge.

JMO

 

[Snoopster]

Just for the record, I will not celebrate a guilty verdict after hearing all the evidence, but I will be satisfied that a jury of Mr Penny’s peers does not believe he acted with proper concern for another person’s life. Mr Neely’s life had value and had he received proper treatment his life could have had meaning beyond his illness. A guilty verdict would send a message to others to be careful of someone’s life while protecting the lives of others. A guilty verdict will be a very unfortunate event in a seemingly decent young man’s life. I do feel for him. But neither verdict will bring back Mr Neely, and that is a tragedy I hope Mr Penny and his supporters acknowledge.

JMO

I agree with everything you've said Lilibet.
'There will be no good outcome from this trial. I feel for both the Neely and Penny families.

 

[acutename]

And I will add that even if Penny is a saint, that in no way relates to what he is charged with. We don’t find defendants guilty or not guilty because of their character. If people had testified that Penny was a jerk, that has no bearing on this case, anymore than Mr Neely’s history is relevant once Mr Penny began his chokehold and held it for too long.

As a reminder yet again, this is what Penny is charged with:

'Manslaughter in the second degree'
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

SECTION 125.10
Criminally negligent homicide
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
The New York State Senate
————————-
Recklessly— recklessly
in a way that is dangerous and shows that you are not thinking about the risks and possible results of your behavior:i believe, tho show that

Criminally negligent— What Is Criminal Negligence?
Criminal negligence (sometimes called culpable negligence) refers to a defendant who acts in disregard of a serious risk of harm that a reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. Another common definition includes an act that amounts to a gross deviation from the general standard of care.

The character witnesses are, I believe to show that DP was not a racist, not a hot head, not a person looking for a fight or to kill some one. When a person is pumped full of adrenaline and they are subduing some one else, I am not sure if time stands still or of it rushes past- 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 6 minutes... did DP mean to use lethal force or was he just afraid to let go? Yes he was trained in choke holds in the Marine Corps, but he was out of the corps and this is not something he practiced every day. The defense does want him to be seen as a good Samaritan, not as some one who should be punished for trying to prevent chaos.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I am wondering the same thing. Usually you see character witnesses before sentencing. And I don’t see what the psychiatrist added to the defense. Penny couldn’t have known any of this. And none of this, including fears of the passengers, has anything to do with the charges.

Daniel Penny’s mom joins Marine vets to vouch for his character on stand: ‘Beyond reproach’

Daniel Penny’s mom told Manhattan jurors Tuesday she tried to instill values of “honesty, humility and kindness” in her son — as other kin and pals continued to vouch for his character at his mansl…

nypost.com

The defense spent the afternoon also questioning forensic psychiatrist Alexander Bardey, who told the court he’d reviewed thousands of pages of medical records from Neely.

Neely reported to doctors during his 2021 hospitalization for schizophrenia that he’d heard the “devil’s voice,” according to a copy of a record shown to jurors.

A witness earlier in the trial described Neely’s rant on the subway car that day as “satanic,” and other straphangers have said they feared for their lives and for their small children during the dead man’s rampage through the train.

A psychiatrist expert who never even met JN who cherry picked the worst out of a few thousand pages to tell the jury about him?

Did the defense think it was a sly move to tell the jury about JN's claim the heard the "devil's voice" because a female passenger/witness said JN's rant was 'satanic"?

Let this despicable victim blaming sit with the jury and the prosecution was right in not dignifying the Doctor and his testimony by doing a cross.
JMO.

 

[Jade]

In the end the person who first put hands on anyone was Daniel Penny who attacked a passenger without warning, grabbing him from behind crashing the smaller weaker man to the ground then clutching him without mercy for an excruciating length of time while ignoring the other passengers who were warning him he was killing the man.

all imo

 

[Izzylizzy]

The character witnesses are, I believe to show that DP was not a racist, not a hot head, not a person looking for a fight or to kill some one. When a person is pumped full of adrenaline and they are subduing some one else, I am not sure if time stands still or of it rushes past- 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 6 minutes... did DP mean to use lethal force or was he just afraid to let go? Yes he was trained in choke holds in the Marine Corps, but he was out of the corps and this is not something he practiced every day. The defense does want him to be seen as a good Samaritan, not as some one who should be punished for trying to prevent chaos.

imo:
One need not be trained in chokeholds to know that you can strangle someone to death using it.