Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Izzylizzy]

I’m very glad to hear the defense called their own medical expert. I’ve heard it said that “medicine is an art, not a science”

IMO that means different experts can have very different yet valid interpretations. All IMO.

Back to the charges against DP.
He knowingly and negligently used lethal force on an armed man who assaulted no one and killed him.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm 100% convinced DP should walk free. I'm glad the defense brought in their own expert to demonstrate a much different perspective. I genuinely hope it causes much reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think you're right that we need to wait for better reporting/explanation. But still, I'm thinking the expert opinion of a forensic pathologist might outweigh that of a medical examiner. JMOO

It seems that Chundru thinks JN died of a "sickling," and this is the first time I've heard the term. I'm looking forward to finding why he thinks that was the ultimate cause of death.

But, I do think it's kind of odd that JN didn't have the little hematomas in his eyes. When DP said he "put him out," I was thinking he meant more of a "sleeper" hold than a chokehold, which compresses the carotid artery and can render the person unconscious. By comparison, a chokehold cuts off the airway and keeps them from breathing.

All JMOO

I didn't look up Dr Cynthia Harris but NYC's Chief Medical Examiner Dr Graham who signed off on the homicide conclusion is also certified in forensics.


"Dr. Graham is board certified by the American Board of Pathology in both anatomic and forensic pathology. He holds faculty appointment currently as Chair for the Department of Forensic Medicine at the New York University Grossman School of Medicine.

Chief Medical Examiner - OCME - NYC.gov​

NYC.gov
https://www.nyc.gov › site › ocme › about › chief-medic...

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think you're right that we need to wait for better reporting/explanation. But still, I'm thinking the expert opinion of a forensic pathologist might outweigh that of a medical examiner. JMOO

It seems that Chundru thinks JN died of a "sickling," and this is the first time I've heard the term. I'm looking forward to finding why he thinks that was the ultimate cause of death.

But, I do think it's kind of odd that JN didn't have the little hematomas in his eyes. When DP said he "put him out," I was thinking he meant more of a "sleeper" hold than a chokehold, which compresses the carotid artery and can render the person unconscious. By comparison, a chokehold cuts off the airway and keeps them from breathing.

All JMOO

BBM

Cynthia Harris, M.D.​

Institution: Office of Chief Medical Examiner, New York City
Location: Massachusetts
Subspecialties: Autopsy & forensics
Status: Staff

 

[IceIce9]

I don’t see how he this case could possibly result in guilty BARD.

K2 and sickle cell crisis could definitely be contributing factors to his death.

MOO JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Here are witness quotes from the msm articles previously posted on this thread and their links.

Oddly it turns out “Danny” himself is the source for the will kill someone direct quotes.


Neely said he was homeless, hungry and "didn't care about going back to jail," Rosario told jurors.
[…]
Neely did not approach or touch anyone, and did not appear to be carrying a weapon, she said.

Daniel Penny trial live updates from Nov. 4


On May 1, Jordan Neely, was on a Manhattan F train and had been reportedly screaming about being hungry, thirsty, and tired when he was pinned down and placed in a chokehold by Penny.
[…]

“From what I understand, Jordan Neely did want help at the time that he was killed. He was expressing his frustration of not being able to get to some of the basic items of survival that any human being needs,” Giffen adds.

Ex-Marine Charged in Jordan Neely Death. Here’s What to Know

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.
[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold



[...]
Neely walked into a moderately packed subway car and began screaming threats. He talked about being hungry and thirsty. His voice was loud, the prosecutor said.
[…]
Kenniff said. (Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[…]
“I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail,” Neely said, according to Vazquez.
[…]
Neely, a Michael Jackson impersonator, shouted at passengers that he was hungry, thirsty and tired of having nothing, and he threw his jacket on the train’s floor, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who filmed the incident.
[…]
“Many witnesses relayed that Mr. Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry, and thirsty. Most recount that Mr. Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison,” the prosecutor wrote in the filing.
[…]
Penny told police Neely was “irate” and “threatening everybody”
[…]
None of the witnesses said Neely had physical contact with anyone before Penny came up behind him, according to the prosecution filing.

Daniel Penny trial: Defense lawyers argue he protected others, prosecutors say he ‘went too far’ as NYC subway manslaughter trial begins | CNN


[...]
Penny, who served in the Marines for four years and was discharged in 2021, has said he acted to protect himself and others from Neely. In a video statement released by his lawyers weeks after the incident, Penny claimed Neely repeatedly said “I’m gonna kill you,” and that he was ready to die or spend his life in prison.

According to court filings released Wednesday, Penny spoke to five officers inside the subway station and then made a videotaped statement to two detectives at a police precinct. The details of Penny’s comments to the officers and the transcript of his
interview were not disclosed in the court filing. In brief summaries, however, authorities said Penny had admitted coming up behind Neeley and placing him in a chokehold, telling them, “I just put him out.”

They said Penny claimed Neely was throwing things, was “threatening everybody,” was “ready to die” and was “ready to go to prison for life.” There is no specific mention in the summaries of Penny saying he heard Neely threaten to kill people.

Mark Bederow, a former assistant district attorney in Manhattan, said Penny’s public comments about Neely’s alleged death threats were key to his defense, and that it could undermine his case if he did not make the same statements to police.

“He’s acknowledging in all these statements that he came upon Neely from behind, took him down and put him out, and there’s nothing there about him being personally threatened,” said Bederow, who has seen the summaries but not Penny’s full statements. Based on those summaries, “the statements he made to police don’t seem to support the use of deadly physical force.”
[..]
Daniel Penny pleads not guilty in NYC subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

[...]
"Some guy came in, whipped his jacket off, he was like 'I'm going to kill everybody, I'm gonna, I could go to prison forever, I don't care.' At that point I looked at the person next to me, I was like 'hang onto this phone for me,' and I just kind of grabbed him from behind," Penny said in the interrogation video. "Cause he was acting like a lunatic, like a crazy person."
[...]
Daniel Penny misused combat technique in deadly subway chokehold, trainer testifies

[...]
They note that many witnesses relayed that Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry and thirsty, and most of the witnesses recount that Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison.

Some witnesses report that Neely threatened to hurt people on the train, while others did not report hearing those threats.

Some witnesses told police that Neely was yelling and harassing passengers on the train; however, others have said though Neely had exhibited erratic behavior, he had not been threatening anyone in particular and had not become violent.

Some passengers on the train that day said they didn't feel threatened -- one "wasn't really worried about what was going on" and another called it "like another day typically in New York. That's what I'm used to seeing. I wasn't really looking at it if I was going to be threatened or anything to that nature, but it was a little different because, you know, you don't really hear anybody saying anything like that," according to court filings by the prosecution.

Other passengers described their fear in court filings. One passenger said they "have encountered many things, but nothing that put fear into me like that." Another said Neely was making "half-lunge movements" and coming within a "half a foot of people."

Daniel Penny set to stand trial in choking death of Jordan Neely on New York City subway

[...]
"The three main threats that he repeated over and over was, 'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die,'" said Penny.
[...]
Daniel Penny says Jordan Neely threatened to kill subway riders before deadly chokehold on video released by his attorneys


imo

Wow! great layout.
Thank you.

I thought the same, especially when reading the interview hearing the testimony of the journalist who did the video and he said nothing about killing.

Who knows if DP spoke with any of the female(s) passenger who quoted the kill accusation while they remained at the station outside the car.
All I know is that in his 30 min interrogation with detectives he said they can ask the women on the train about the threat.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Being a Marine with a Green Belt in martial arts which qualifies him as a Marine instructor and knowing the deadly consequences of chokeholds this is when he was morally responsible for rendering medical aid to JN.
The choke pressure and the sickle cell claims by the defense are totally irrelevant, DP was unaware of JN's sickle cell trait to begin with and knew damn well then and there that it was his choke that put JN unconscious.


x.com
@danrivoli
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"Dr. Chundru says video shows when Penny applies pressure - like in middle of video during a struggle - and relaxed at beginning when there's no struggle and at end after Neely stopped purposeful movement'


12:27 PM · Nov 21, 2024

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Oh how I wish NY allowed cameras- so much easier and much less scuttlebutt and games of telephone

moo jmo omo

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

The defense expert does concede the restraint contributed to cause of death.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859650994080186438

 

[Izzylizzy]

Oh how I wish NY allowed cameras- so much easier and much less scuttlebutt and games of telephone

moo jmo omo

Plus this trial has the worst live reporting and reporting in general.
It's surprising due to it being a high profile case.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The defense expert does concede the restraint contributed to cause of death.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859650994080186438

The defense expert does concede the restraint contributed to cause of death.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859650994080186438

'Much ado about nothing" new testimony on the death of JN.
He has JN dead or dying when he went unconscious, then the 51 secs DP still had him in the choke.
That agrees with Dr Harris who did a point by point with the jury using video of JN dying then brain dead at the point he goes unconscious then the comes the 51 secs.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The defense expert does concede the restraint contributed to cause of death.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859650994080186438

We've been through this defense's claims before about what killed a man whose oxygen was restricted for minutes while being restrained and it didn't work then and I believe it won't work this time either.
Had they not been restrained and denied oxygen for the length of time they were none of their health issues would have killed them on those afternoons.

Neither man was a threat to anyone for minutes before they went unconscious, and were given warnings which were ignored.

 

[Cryptic]

I desperately wish that there were more mental health services available for all people, housed or unhoused, employed or otherwise… moo

I think the big impediment to that is that most mentally ill people dont think they are mentally ill. And... it nearly impossible to force somebody to receive mental health treatment.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I think the big impediment to that is that most mentally ill people dont think they are mentally ill. And... it nearly impossible to force somebody to received mental health treatment.

That’s the truth! Or they take meds .., feel better… go off… back to streets, street drugs, repeat… we’ve been through that cycle so many times… with youthful family members and adults… it’s hard!

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think the big impediment to that is that most mentally ill people dont think they are mentally ill. And... it nearly impossible to force somebody to received mental health treatment.

They have many rights now so along with that comes the good, bad and as we've seen the ugly.
It's bitter sweet.

 

[Izzylizzy]

No one knows what level of K2 was in JN's system or when he last took it so K2 is no proof at all that it contributed to JN's death.

How did JN's paranoid Schizophrenia add to his death ?

People(JN) with "sickle cell trait" do not have "sickle cell disease" and those with SCT usually live normal lives.
Though it can be activated under extreme physical activity which being in a chokehold,restrained and struggling to breath for 5 mins from a lack of oxygen fits that possibility.

It still comes back to being deprived of oxygen from a chokehold,being restrained and struggling to breath.

"He said Neely died from “the combined effects” of synthetic marijuana, schizophrenia, his struggle and restraint, and a blood condition that can lead to fatal complications during exertion.

“The chokehold did not cause death,” the pathologist said."

Sickle Cell Trait

People with sickle cell trait carry only one copy of the sickle hemoglobin gene and rarely have any symptoms of sickle cell disease. However, in rare instances, some people who have sickle cell trait can experience medical complications.

www.nhlbi.nih.gov

 

[IceIce9]

Expert says there is 'no way' Jordan Neely died from subway chokehold

Dr. Satish Chundru, who was called to testify by Penny's attorneys, blamed Jordan Neely's death on a combination of a sickle cell crisis and the effects of synthetic marijuana.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A forensic pathologist called to the stand in the manslaughter trial of Daniel Penny who is accused of using a fatal chokehold on a homeless man on the New York City subway, has declared there is insufficient evidence that a choke caused the victim's death.

Dr. Satish Chundru, who was called to testify by Penny's attorneys, blamed Jordan Neely's death on a combination of a sickle cell crisis and the effects of synthetic marijuana.

 

[Sillybilly]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859632177232650295

ADMIN NOTE:

Just an FYI for the record that Tricia has approved Inner City Press as a source in this discussion due to the live coverage of the trial.

ETA: Dan Rivoli is also approved.

 

[Jade]

Penny's lawyer Raiser: Let's do some hypos - a person is high on K2, and psychotic, and is restrained and dies. Also, a person is in a sickling crisis and is restrained and dies. Are these chokehold deaths? Penny's medical examiner: No.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859632177232650295

This report makes it clear that was a hypothetical question and answer not about this case specifically.

all imo

 

[shotgun09]

Penny's lawyer Raiser: Let's do some hypos - a person is high on K2, and psychotic, and is restrained and dies. Also, a person is in a sickling crisis and is restrained and dies. Are these chokehold deaths? Penny's medical examiner: No.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859632177232650295

This report makes it clear that was a hypothetical question and answer not about this case specifically.

all imo

However, It does make room for some serious reasonable doubt, IMO

The expert Forensic Psych witness Dr Alexander Sasha Bardey yesterday was able to prove that JN had a history of K2 abuse, as well as psychotic episodes with an admitted evidence screenshot of the medical records from Bellevue.
Seen below in this video

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859038098354823574