Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[lonetraveler]

And I will add that even if Penny is a saint, that in no way relates to what he is charged with. We don’t find defendants guilty or not guilty because of their character. If people had testified that Penny was a jerk, that has no bearing on this case, anymore than Mr Neely’s history is relevant once Mr Penny began his chokehold and held it for too long.

As a reminder yet again, this is what Penny is charged with:

'Manslaughter in the second degree'
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

SECTION 125.10
Criminally negligent homicide
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
The New York State Senate
————————-
Recklessly— recklessly
in a way that is dangerous and shows that you are not thinking about the risks and possible results of your behavior:

Criminally negligent— What Is Criminal Negligence?
Criminal negligence (sometimes called culpable negligence) refers to a defendant who acts in disregard of a serious risk of harm that a reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. Another common definition includes an act that amounts to a gross deviation from the general standard of care.

I disagree with you. It does matter what type of person Daniel Penny is. Absolutely, it does.

 

[LinasK]

Tomorrow the prosecution will cross examine Dr. Chundru.

imo:
The prosecutor will have her ducks in a row.

That should be good!

 

[Izzylizzy]

I agree.

And, another thing strikes me--DP didn't ask about JN during his interrogation. To me, that indicates that he didn't think he was dead or badly injured. That tells me that DP didn't think he'd harmed JN--that he likely expected he would make a full recovery.

When I watch the video of the restraint, I notice DP's elbow directly below JN's chin. To me, that suggests DP was not cutting off his air supply--instead, his forearm was pressing against the side of JN's neck. The sleeper hold.

In my opinion if I released someone from a 6 min chokehold and then watching them I saw no movement then when LE arrived and did narcan and CPR and still no movement the last thing I would think is that I did the person no harm.

If you listen to the 30 min interrogation it's very interesting when detective Medina questions DP about the chokehold style and if it's a "Brazillian rear naked "choke , which is coming from behind like DP did,wrapping your arm around the person's neck then to the ground, then putting your leg around the person and pushing down their head with your other hand.
DP said he wasn't trained in Brazilian jiu jitsu like the detective was but bottom line the choke DP used is just that.
Detective Media, also a Marine said that these holds are taught in the Marines.
@ 10:12 the sleeper choke/rear naked choke holds begin and you'll see DP not admitting to know about the "rear naked hold ".
jmo

 

[IDK]

Except this particular one isn't credible, IMO.

“Dr. Chundru is an independent forensic pathologist with more than twenty years of experience investigating deaths and serious injuries. His independently-owned private practice supports individuals, families, attorneys, law enforcement, and businesses throughout the United States.”

“Clients rely on Dr. Chundru’s services in part because of his comprehensive knowledge and attention to detail. He has performed more than 8,500 autopsy procedures and has reviewed several thousand forensic cases over the course of his career. He is only one of about 600 Board Certified Forensic Pathologists in the country.”

“Dr. Chundru has experience as a Forensic Pathologist in field, academic, and laboratory settings. This background has helped him to simplify complex scientific issues for clients and to analyze forensic data thoroughly. He teaches as an adjunct professor with the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, Texas. He continues to serve as lab director for several Texas-based facilities.”

“ Chundru received his undergraduate degree from the University of Texas at Austin and his medical degree from the University of North Texas Health Science Center. He completed a five-year residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology at University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, Texas. His experience in the pathology residency program included a surgical pathology fellowship, service as chief resident in autopsy and neuropathology, and studies in crime scene investigation.”

“Based on this work, Dr. Chundru was selected for the prestigious fellowship with the Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner’s Department. During his participation in this top program, he received his Board Certification in Anatomic and Forensic Pathology.”

Meet Forensic Pathologist Dr. Chundru

As a forensic pathologist, Dr. Chundru has performed more than 8,500 private and second autopsies & reviewed thousands of cases. Contact his office today!

theforensicdoc.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

That should be good!

If we can get anything that even comes close to descent reporting , then yes!

 

[Izzylizzy]

“Dr. Chundru is an independent forensic pathologist with more than twenty years of experience investigating deaths and serious injuries. His independently-owned private practice supports individuals, families, attorneys, law enforcement, and businesses throughout the United States.”

“Clients rely on Dr. Chundru’s services in part because of his comprehensive knowledge and attention to detail. He has performed more than 8,500 autopsy procedures and has reviewed several thousand forensic cases over the course of his career. He is only one of about 600 Board Certified Forensic Pathologists in the country.”

“Dr. Chundru has experience as a Forensic Pathologist in field, academic, and laboratory settings. This background has helped him to simplify complex scientific issues for clients and to analyze forensic data thoroughly. He teaches as an adjunct professor with the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, Texas. He continues to serve as lab director for several Texas-based facilities.”

“ Chundru received his undergraduate degree from the University of Texas at Austin and his medical degree from the University of North Texas Health Science Center. He completed a five-year residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology at University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, Texas. His experience in the pathology residency program included a surgical pathology fellowship, service as chief resident in autopsy and neuropathology, and studies in crime scene investigation.”

“Based on this work, Dr. Chundru was selected for the prestigious fellowship with the Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner’s Department. During his participation in this top program, he received his Board Certification in Anatomic and Forensic Pathology.”

Meet Forensic Pathologist Dr. Chundru

As a forensic pathologist, Dr. Chundru has performed more than 8,500 private and second autopsies & reviewed thousands of cases. Contact his office today!

theforensicdoc.com

IMO for starters:
Defense lawyers would never hire forensic experts that don't agree with the defense's strategy.

 

[lonetraveler]

Just a reminder. Intent to kill is not a requirement to charge someone with manslaughter.

That and the fact that DP did not intend to kill.

 

[Izzylizzy]

That and the fact that DP did not intend to kill.

Yet JN is dead and the common battle is going on in the trial between the prosecution' and defense how and why it happened.
jmo

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm not familiar with that case. Neely wasn't a bully, Penny was a vigilante, and that's NOT the answer. Why weren't there police on the train trained to deescalate a threatening person? As I previously stated, I recently had an encounter with an aggressive person weeks ago who followed me on a street and was trying to beckon me back for a confrontation. You avoid them, you don't attack them. Also, Penny did NOT know Neely's history when he decided to attack him.

Do not agree that Penny is a vigilante. He stepped forward to protect the people on that subway car. He did not seek to cause trouble. It came to him. Now, people want to crucify him as the villian.

 

[lonetraveler]

Except that Penny decided to act without knowing if Neely was on any drugs or not.

Penny decided to act when Neely made a declaration that someone was going to die and that he did not care if he went to Rikers or not.

 

[LinasK]

That and the fact that DP did not intend to kill.

In your opinion.

 

[lonetraveler]

That was my point as well. It could have been some medical condition causing him to act that way rather than drugs. Without a doctor examining him, no one can claim on the spot, that Neely' s behavior was the result of drug use.

Does it matter if he was on drugs or not???? Really??? He was acting as if he was, period.

 

[lonetraveler]

Although I can't recall the case right now, I know that there's been instances of LE stopping people for acting drunk, and it turns out that they had no alcohol in their system. There are medical conditions like seizures and such that cause people to act weirdly and it's involuntary out of their control.

Does that matter since he threatened people on that subway car?

 

[LinasK]

Does it matter if he was on drugs or not???? Really??? He was acting as if he was, period.

Yes it matters. Penny acted on the assumption he was. That's like saying I thought the guy was armed, so I fired first, and then finding out that he was unarmed.

 

[JennieM]

For those defending DP, just put your stopwatch for 6 minutes and imagine you have someone on a chokehold, squeezing their neck, not letting them breathe. It’s unbearably long. What do you think would happen to that person? Who could actually survive that?

 

[LinasK]

Does that matter since he threatened people on that subway car?

Yes it matters because it wasn't up to Penny to act as a vigilante. There were other ways to deal with Neely including getting off the train car and alerting police.

 

[lonetraveler]

Here are witness quotes from the msm articles previously posted on this thread and their links.

Oddly it turns out “Danny” himself is the source for the will kill someone direct quotes.


Neely said he was homeless, hungry and "didn't care about going back to jail," Rosario told jurors.
[…]
Neely did not approach or touch anyone, and did not appear to be carrying a weapon, she said.

Daniel Penny trial live updates from Nov. 4


On May 1, Jordan Neely, was on a Manhattan F train and had been reportedly screaming about being hungry, thirsty, and tired when he was pinned down and placed in a chokehold by Penny.
[…]

“From what I understand, Jordan Neely did want help at the time that he was killed. He was expressing his frustration of not being able to get to some of the basic items of survival that any human being needs,” Giffen adds.

Ex-Marine Charged in Jordan Neely Death. Here’s What to Know

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.
[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold



[...]
Neely walked into a moderately packed subway car and began screaming threats. He talked about being hungry and thirsty. His voice was loud, the prosecutor said.
[…]
Kenniff said. (Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[…]
“I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail,” Neely said, according to Vazquez.
[…]
Neely, a Michael Jackson impersonator, shouted at passengers that he was hungry, thirsty and tired of having nothing, and he threw his jacket on the train’s floor, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who filmed the incident.
[…]
“Many witnesses relayed that Mr. Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry, and thirsty. Most recount that Mr. Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison,” the prosecutor wrote in the filing.
[…]
Penny told police Neely was “irate” and “threatening everybody”
[…]
None of the witnesses said Neely had physical contact with anyone before Penny came up behind him, according to the prosecution filing.

Daniel Penny trial: Defense lawyers argue he protected others, prosecutors say he ‘went too far’ as NYC subway manslaughter trial begins | CNN


[...]
Penny, who served in the Marines for four years and was discharged in 2021, has said he acted to protect himself and others from Neely. In a video statement released by his lawyers weeks after the incident, Penny claimed Neely repeatedly said “I’m gonna kill you,” and that he was ready to die or spend his life in prison.

According to court filings released Wednesday, Penny spoke to five officers inside the subway station and then made a videotaped statement to two detectives at a police precinct. The details of Penny’s comments to the officers and the transcript of his
interview were not disclosed in the court filing. In brief summaries, however, authorities said Penny had admitted coming up behind Neeley and placing him in a chokehold, telling them, “I just put him out.”

They said Penny claimed Neely was throwing things, was “threatening everybody,” was “ready to die” and was “ready to go to prison for life.” There is no specific mention in the summaries of Penny saying he heard Neely threaten to kill people.

Mark Bederow, a former assistant district attorney in Manhattan, said Penny’s public comments about Neely’s alleged death threats were key to his defense, and that it could undermine his case if he did not make the same statements to police.

“He’s acknowledging in all these statements that he came upon Neely from behind, took him down and put him out, and there’s nothing there about him being personally threatened,” said Bederow, who has seen the summaries but not Penny’s full statements. Based on those summaries, “the statements he made to police don’t seem to support the use of deadly physical force.”
[..]
Daniel Penny pleads not guilty in NYC subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

[...]
"Some guy came in, whipped his jacket off, he was like 'I'm going to kill everybody, I'm gonna, I could go to prison forever, I don't care.' At that point I looked at the person next to me, I was like 'hang onto this phone for me,' and I just kind of grabbed him from behind," Penny said in the interrogation video. "Cause he was acting like a lunatic, like a crazy person."
[...]
Daniel Penny misused combat technique in deadly subway chokehold, trainer testifies

[...]
They note that many witnesses relayed that Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry and thirsty, and most of the witnesses recount that Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison.

Some witnesses report that Neely threatened to hurt people on the train, while others did not report hearing those threats.

Some witnesses told police that Neely was yelling and harassing passengers on the train; however, others have said though Neely had exhibited erratic behavior, he had not been threatening anyone in particular and had not become violent.

Some passengers on the train that day said they didn't feel threatened -- one "wasn't really worried about what was going on" and another called it "like another day typically in New York. That's what I'm used to seeing. I wasn't really looking at it if I was going to be threatened or anything to that nature, but it was a little different because, you know, you don't really hear anybody saying anything like that," according to court filings by the prosecution.

Other passengers described their fear in court filings. One passenger said they "have encountered many things, but nothing that put fear into me like that." Another said Neely was making "half-lunge movements" and coming within a "half a foot of people."

Daniel Penny set to stand trial in choking death of Jordan Neely on New York City subway

[...]
"The three main threats that he repeated over and over was, 'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die,'" said Penny.
[...]
Daniel Penny says Jordan Neely threatened to kill subway riders before deadly chokehold on video released by his attorneys


imo

When some crazy acting man threatens people and says that he is willing to die, then I immediately going to think that he is willing to do something where he can end up dead or get the death sentence for what he has done.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I disagree with you. It does matter what type of person Daniel Penny is. Absolutely, it does.

imo:
What type of person someone is does not negate that person's actions.

 

[Izzylizzy]

When some crazy acting man threatens people and says that he is willing to die, then I immediately going to think that he is willing to do something where he can end up dead or get the death sentence for what he has done.

That's exactly what DP thought, JN was going to kill someone.
DP must have also thought that including up until JN became lifeless because he still held him in the choke for another 50+ secs.
jmo

 

[Deleted member 296739]

That and the fact that DP did not intend to kill.

How do you know this? Source?