Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[lonetraveler]

IMO for starters:
Defense lawyers would never hire forensic experts that don't agree with the defense's strategy.

Well then, I will guess that the very same stance will be that Prosecution will hire a forensic expert who also agrees with their strategy.

 

[LinasK]

Well then, I will guess that the very same stance will be that Prosecution will hire a forensic expert who also agrees with their strategy.

Yes, it will be a "battle" of the experts. I'm betting I know which one will win.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Well then, I will guess that the very same stance will be that Prosecution will hire a forensic expert who also agrees with their strategy.

No forensic expert was hired by the prosecution.
Dr.Harris works for the NY Medical Examiners Office and does their autopsies and she did Neelys.
When needed medical examiners are called to testify in civil/criminal trials on their findings.
They can be subpoenaed by the defense.

 

[jepop]

Defense medical expert is far from credible if it is true that they stated outright under oath ( in response to the question) that DP did not, as a matter of fact, die due to asphyxiation owing to chokehold. The 'expert' couldn't know that. Defense expert in another sentence said they were unable to state COD for certain?

Juries aren't stupid I hope and their instructions will include deciding on expert credibility. Looks like this one got paid to muddy the waters one step short of outright lying jmo. Coaching appears to be a tad obvious but jmo.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

For those defending DP, just put your stopwatch for 6 minutes and imagine you have someone on a chokehold, squeezing their neck, not letting them breathe. It’s unbearably long. What do you think would happen to that person? Who could actually survive that?

You're right, I read your post and thought to myself what could you do in 6 minutes? Bryan Kohberger (allegedly) took less than 10 minutes to stab 4 people to death across two floors. 6 minutes is so much longer in practice than it sounds.

 

[Snoopster]

Like Bernard Geotz? At what point are we completely controlled by these bullies? The lawlessness runs unchecked in NYC, and continues to escalate.

Neely may have been mentally ill, high on drugs, whatever else society wants to state as justification for his behavior. But he frightened people on the train that day.

I wonder what the outcome would have been if Penny had not been on the train that day to protect people?

I am so behind on the comments here, but I'll respond to yours as you are someone I highly admire.

I don't think there is anyone here who blames Penny for taking down Neely. People were scared and concerned. He stepped up. I am sure they were grateful. I would be too.

BUT, it was the aftermath that some of us are concerned with. DP continued to choke JN long after it was necessary...and until it led to his death. People asked him to stop the choke, but he didn't. The result was the death. No one was at risk one minute after the chock began (the train had arrived at a station and everyone exited). But DP kept choking and choking.

This is what the court case is about. It's not about Penny taking Neely down. It's about excessive force.

 

[Snoopster]

Considering the state of NY never charged him with vigilantism, it appears fairly clear no evidence of that exists.
Accusing DP of that, while it may be your opinion, it's not factual in this case.

No, they charged him with manslaughter and negligent homicide. So are you ok with that? Is that 'factual in this case'?

 

[Ontario Mom]

No, they charged him with manslaughter and negligent homicide. So are you ok with that? Is that 'factual in this case'?

Not at all, am I okay with that. I think they should have dismissed the entire debacle, immediately upon examining the video evidence of what took place. No charges filed, at all.

jmo

 

[Snoopster]

Not at all, am I okay with that. I think they should have dismissed the entire debacle, immediately upon examining the video evidence of what took place. No charges filed, at all.

jmo

Thanks for sharing your view.
My view is that he should have been charged. He kept choking and choking well beyond what was required to keep people safe.
Someone died. Whether it was appropriate force (or not) I'd like a jury to decide.

 

[Donswife48]

Defense medical expert is far from credible if it is true that they stated outright under oath ( in response to the question) that DP did not, as a matter of fact, die due to asphyxiation owing to chokehold. The 'expert' couldn't know that. Defense expert in another sentence said they were unable to state COD for certain?

Juries aren't stupid I hope and their instructions will include deciding on expert credibility. Looks like this one got paid to muddy the waters one step short of outright lying jmo. Coaching appears to be a tad obvious but jmo.

I find it incredible that we are discussing a case when facts are being ignored. DP (Daniel Penny) didn't die. What I have seen is one medical examiner state from looking at a video that she was certain when the death of JN (Jordan Neeley) (not DP) died. Defense has produced a forensic pathologist that states the opposite "You can have a chokehold applied, leave with that kind of injury, and survive." Whoever you believe is your opinion. The one thing you are right about is juries aren't stupid. I trust they will come to the correct factually conclusion. Burden of proof lies with the prosecution. They have not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DP killed JN, nor is DP a vigilante. JMO MOO

 

[jepop]

I find it incredible that we are discussing a case when facts are being ignored. DP (Daniel Penny) didn't die. What I have seen is one medical examiner state from looking at a video that she was certain when the death of JN (Jordan Neeley) (not DP) died. Defense has produced a forensic pathologist that states the opposite "You can have a chokehold applied, leave with that kind of injury, and survive." Whoever you believe is your opinion. The one thing you are right about is juries aren't stupid. I trust they will come to the correct factually conclusion. Burden of proof lies with the prosecution. They have not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DP killed JN, nor is DP a vigilante. JMO MOO

Sorry it wasn't obvious I made a typo. Clearly I intended the initials JN. It happens. Too late to amend the typo.

 

[Donswife48]

I am so behind on the comments here, but I'll respond to yours as you are someone I highly admire.

I don't think there is anyone here who blames Penny for taking down Neely. People were scared and concerned. He stepped up. I am sure they were grateful. I would be too.

BUT, it was the aftermath that some of us are concerned with. DP continued to choke JN long after it was necessary...and until it led to his death. People asked him to stop the choke, but he didn't. The result was the death. No one was at risk one minute after the chock began (the train had arrived at a station and everyone exited). But DP kept choking and choking.

This is what the court case is about. It's not about Penny taking Neely down. It's about excessive force.

Don't people exit and enter subway cars at each stop? Just because people exited, someone innocently might have entered. And of course, DP was at risk of an attack from JN. It is reasonable to believe JN might have had a weapon on him, perhaps a knife.

 

[Snoopster]

I find it incredible that we are discussing a case when facts are being ignored. DP (Daniel Penny) didn't die. What I have seen is one medical examiner state from looking at a video that she was certain when the death of JN (Jordan Neeley) (not DP) died. Defense has produced a forensic pathologist that states the opposite "You can have a chokehold applied, leave with that kind of injury, and survive." Whoever you believe is your opinion. The one thing you are right about is juries aren't stupid. I trust they will come to the correct factually conclusion. Burden of proof lies with the prosecution. They have not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that DP killed JN, nor is DP a vigilante. JMO MOO

But then, in fact, JN DID die. so your argument that 'he could have that kind of injury and survive' is kind of moot. "Could" is a weak word. People pleaded with DP to let go of the choke and he refused to do that. He should have listened to them. But he was likely flooded with adrenaline. If his defense team took that strategy then there might be more sympathy for his 'overkill'.

 

[Donswife48]

But then, in fact, JN DID die. so your argument that 'he could have that kind of injury and survive' is kind of moot. "Could" is a weak word. People pleaded with DP to let go of the choke and he refused to do that. He should have listened to them. But he was likely flooded with adrenaline. If his defense team took that strategy then there might be more sympathy for his 'overkill'.

Could or knew are both weak words when viewing something after the fact. Especially when the medical examiner stated she knew the exact time JN died, that is the same thing. She didn't know for a fact; she only could guess based on the video. If we are acting only on these words, they both have no weight on whether JN died from the choke hold or if he died because of lack of care when the LE arrived. How long did they wait before beginning to resuscitate JN? Was it more than 6 minutes? JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

Thanks for sharing your view.
My view is that he should have been charged. He kept choking and choking well beyond what was required to keep people safe.
Someone died. Whether it was appropriate force (or not) I'd like a jury to decide.

I'll abide by whatever the jury decides.

 

[Snoopster]

Don't people exit and enter subway cars at each stop? Just because people exited, someone innocently might have entered. And of course, DP was at risk of an attack from JN. It is reasonable to believe JN might have had a weapon on him, perhaps a knife.

Thanks for this thoughtful comment.
My understanding (which might not be correct, so provide me with correct info if not) is that people avoided getting on that car. At that point there was NO risk of JN attacking DP as there were two other guys standing over them, holding JN's arms down. (as DP said in his interview with police). DP could have let up the pressure as others assured him there were others there to help and he was at risk of killing JN. He ignored them.

 

[Snoopster]

I'll abide by whatever the jury decides.

I will too. Thank you @Ontario Mom . This is such a sensitive case. We all wish it didn't happen.

 

[jepop]

Oh puleasse! That just isn't credible. I worked for 13 years as a Speech-Language Pathologist. I saw firsthand the brain-damage caused in stroke and head-injury patients from the immediate lack of oxygen. Sickle-cell disease just isn't going to cause immediate lack of oxygen the way that the force of a choke-hold would. It strains credulity!

I know right? It's certainly incredulous and desperate I guess.Hopefully the jury is alert. In any event, if they are impartial and follow instructions and evidence I see a conviction. Moo

 

[jepop]

Here are witness quotes from the msm articles previously posted on this thread and their links.

Oddly it turns out “Danny” himself is the source for the will kill someone direct quotes.


Neely said he was homeless, hungry and "didn't care about going back to jail," Rosario told jurors.
[…]
Neely did not approach or touch anyone, and did not appear to be carrying a weapon, she said.

Daniel Penny trial live updates from Nov. 4


On May 1, Jordan Neely, was on a Manhattan F train and had been reportedly screaming about being hungry, thirsty, and tired when he was pinned down and placed in a chokehold by Penny.
[…]

“From what I understand, Jordan Neely did want help at the time that he was killed. He was expressing his frustration of not being able to get to some of the basic items of survival that any human being needs,” Giffen adds.

Ex-Marine Charged in Jordan Neely Death. Here’s What to Know

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.
[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold



[...]
Neely walked into a moderately packed subway car and began screaming threats. He talked about being hungry and thirsty. His voice was loud, the prosecutor said.
[…]
Kenniff said. (Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[…]
“I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail,” Neely said, according to Vazquez.
[…]
Neely, a Michael Jackson impersonator, shouted at passengers that he was hungry, thirsty and tired of having nothing, and he threw his jacket on the train’s floor, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who filmed the incident.
[…]
“Many witnesses relayed that Mr. Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry, and thirsty. Most recount that Mr. Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison,” the prosecutor wrote in the filing.
[…]
Penny told police Neely was “irate” and “threatening everybody”
[…]
None of the witnesses said Neely had physical contact with anyone before Penny came up behind him, according to the prosecution filing.

Daniel Penny trial: Defense lawyers argue he protected others, prosecutors say he ‘went too far’ as NYC subway manslaughter trial begins | CNN


[...]
Penny, who served in the Marines for four years and was discharged in 2021, has said he acted to protect himself and others from Neely. In a video statement released by his lawyers weeks after the incident, Penny claimed Neely repeatedly said “I’m gonna kill you,” and that he was ready to die or spend his life in prison.

According to court filings released Wednesday, Penny spoke to five officers inside the subway station and then made a videotaped statement to two detectives at a police precinct. The details of Penny’s comments to the officers and the transcript of his
interview were not disclosed in the court filing. In brief summaries, however, authorities said Penny had admitted coming up behind Neeley and placing him in a chokehold, telling them, “I just put him out.”

They said Penny claimed Neely was throwing things, was “threatening everybody,” was “ready to die” and was “ready to go to prison for life.” There is no specific mention in the summaries of Penny saying he heard Neely threaten to kill people.

Mark Bederow, a former assistant district attorney in Manhattan, said Penny’s public comments about Neely’s alleged death threats were key to his defense, and that it could undermine his case if he did not make the same statements to police.

“He’s acknowledging in all these statements that he came upon Neely from behind, took him down and put him out, and there’s nothing there about him being personally threatened,” said Bederow, who has seen the summaries but not Penny’s full statements. Based on those summaries, “the statements he made to police don’t seem to support the use of deadly physical force.”
[..]
Daniel Penny pleads not guilty in NYC subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

[...]
"Some guy came in, whipped his jacket off, he was like 'I'm going to kill everybody, I'm gonna, I could go to prison forever, I don't care.' At that point I looked at the person next to me, I was like 'hang onto this phone for me,' and I just kind of grabbed him from behind," Penny said in the interrogation video. "Cause he was acting like a lunatic, like a crazy person."
[...]
Daniel Penny misused combat technique in deadly subway chokehold, trainer testifies

[...]
They note that many witnesses relayed that Neely expressed that he was homeless, hungry and thirsty, and most of the witnesses recount that Neely indicated a willingness to go to jail or prison.

Some witnesses report that Neely threatened to hurt people on the train, while others did not report hearing those threats.

Some witnesses told police that Neely was yelling and harassing passengers on the train; however, others have said though Neely had exhibited erratic behavior, he had not been threatening anyone in particular and had not become violent.

Some passengers on the train that day said they didn't feel threatened -- one "wasn't really worried about what was going on" and another called it "like another day typically in New York. That's what I'm used to seeing. I wasn't really looking at it if I was going to be threatened or anything to that nature, but it was a little different because, you know, you don't really hear anybody saying anything like that," according to court filings by the prosecution.

Other passengers described their fear in court filings. One passenger said they "have encountered many things, but nothing that put fear into me like that." Another said Neely was making "half-lunge movements" and coming within a "half a foot of people."

Daniel Penny set to stand trial in choking death of Jordan Neely on New York City subway

[...]
"The three main threats that he repeated over and over was, 'I'm going to kill you,' 'I'm prepared to go to jail for life,' and 'I'm willing to die,'" said Penny.
[...]
Daniel Penny says Jordan Neely threatened to kill subway riders before deadly chokehold on video released by his attorneys


imo

Thanks a lot for your hard work parsing DP's account against the witness accounts.

 

[Snoopster]

If I have this right about Dr. Satish Chundru, he's saying that it was the struggle that JN put up that caused his sickle cell to cause the lack of oxygen in his blood and not the chokehold which rendered him unconscious and then killed him.

Even with that claim JN would not have been struggling for 5 mins (the last minute being held he was unconscious) had DP not kept him with 2 other guys in the choke for 5 mins.when JN was no longer the threat that DP held him for..that he was going to kill someone.

Say what?? The struggle caused his sickle cell to cause lack of oxygen?? This guy is beyond belief!! Of course it couldn't relate to the fact that HE WAS BEING CHOKED??!! Seriously, can't all of you see how ridiculous this is??