Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Inthedetails]

Exercising Caution: Intensive Athletic Activity Could Be Fatal to Those with Sickle-Cell Trait

Scientists are studying why some athletes with a sickle-cell mutation face a greater risk of sudden death

www.scientificamerican.com

DP held JN in a chokehold for six minutes. DP was trained in chokeholds.

"Chokeholds work primarily by compressing one or both of the carotid arteries in the neck. This only takes about 10 pounds of pressure—the equivalent of a firm handshake, McDonald said—and can cause unconsciousness in about 10 seconds. In two minutes, permanent neurologic damage can occur. At three to four minutes, death can result."

Chokeholds: Could MMA Fighting Techniques Be Used in Crimes?

With martial arts gaining in popularity, a PCOM forensics expert encourages investigators to be aware of the symptoms of strangulation due to chokeholds.

www.pcom.edu

 

[Jade]

You raise many good points.

I also wonder if LE had been the first to respond, how might JN have responded to them? What if they had needed to taze him? Just throwing out a possible scenario. We have no way of knowing. May well have ended in the same outcome, due to all JN’s health and substance abuse issues.



There are too many “what if” situations to ponder the potential outcomes, IMO.

Very sad that JN did not get the help he had desperately needed for years. IMO.

LE would be working within the authority given to them if they chose to taze or not adds no meaning to the performance of a civilian citizen attacking another citizen.

Sworn Law Enforcement has specialized training while some civilians may have had tactical training it’s not the same.

The officers are sworn to uphold the law and have arrest powers that provide them with the authority that comes with being the Police.


all imo

 

[fred&edna]

Source or link to info please.

I've linked to several sources in recent posts.

Under extreme conditions such as high altitude, severe dehydration, or very high intensity physical activity, red cells can become deformed or sickled. Complications include muscle breakdown (rhabdomyolysis), reduced blood supply to the spleen (ischemia/infarction), or increased pressure in the eye (glaucoma) following eye injuries. Finally, a very rare form of kidney cancer (renal medullary carcinoma) has been associated with sickle cell trait.

Sickle Cell Trait

Understand the difference between sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia.

www.hematology.org

I've bolded words in the paragraph to try to explain my post. And, as I stated previously.... I am far from being a doctor. This is my lay interpretation of the information I've read.

Hemoglobin is a protein in blood that carries oxygen. For people who have SCT, the protein is abnormally shaped. During strenuous exercise, the abnormal hemoglobin in red blood cells can change the shape of those cells from round to a crescent moon or “sickle” shape. This is known as exertional sickling. These sickled cells can build up in the blood vessels causing a blockage. This restricts blood flow and can lead to collapse from the rapid breakdown of the muscles deprived of blood and oxygen, a condition known as rhabdomyolysis. In extreme cases, rhabdomyolysis has resulted in the deaths of high school and collegiate athletes as well as U.S. military recruits during basic training.

More Than a Cramp: Athletes with Sickle Cell Trait | CHKD Blog

Sickle cell trait is a blood disorder in which a sickle cell gene is inherited from one parent with a normal gene from the other. Learn how it affects athletes.

www.chkd.org

All, jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

LE would be working within the authority given to them if they chose to taze or not adds no meaning to the performance of a civilian citizen attacking another citizen.

Sworn Law Enforcement has specialized training while some civilians may have had tactical training it’s not the same.

The officers are sworn to uphold the law and have arrest powers that provide them with the authority that comes with being the Police.


all imo

Interestingly, LE are not allowed to use chokeholds to restrain suspects in NYC.
I know the OP was talking about Tasers, butbi find it relevant that a chokehold is deemed to dangerous. Just saying!

NYC's ban on police chokeholds, diaphragm compression upheld by state's high court

New York’s highest court on Monday upheld a New York City law that forbids police from using chokeholds or compressing a person’s diaphragm during an arrest, rejecting a challenge from police unions to a law passed after the death of George Floyd.

www.nbcnewyork.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

DP held JN in a chokehold for six minutes. DP was trained in chokeholds.

"Chokeholds work primarily by compressing one or both of the carotid arteries in the neck. This only takes about 10 pounds of pressure—the equivalent of a firm handshake, McDonald said—and can cause unconsciousness in about 10 seconds. In two minutes, permanent neurologic damage can occur. At three to four minutes, death can result."

Chokeholds: Could MMA Fighting Techniques Be Used in Crimes?

With martial arts gaining in popularity, a PCOM forensics expert encourages investigators to be aware of the symptoms of strangulation due to chokeholds.

www.pcom.edu

In the 30 min interrogation video the name of the chokehold came up.
Detective Medina who also served in the Marines does Brazillian jui jisu and said it's a "rear naked choke"
Exactly how DP brought JN down, the arm remains around the neck, the leg over the person and their other hand pushing down on the person's head.
Medina asked if that's the hold he used and DP kept fumbling with his replays, saying he doesn't know BJJ,then Medina said something about him having learned it in the Marines which DP wouldn't acknowledge.
It appears that DP didn't want Medina to know that he knew exactly what choke he had JN in and that he was taught it in the Marine's lethal force training.
DP had a green belt in the Marines which makes him eligible to be a trainer.
His playing stupid with Medina did not work out well for him.
JMO

 

[jepop]

Exercising Caution: Intensive Athletic Activity Could Be Fatal to Those with Sickle-Cell Trait

Scientists are studying why some athletes with a sickle-cell mutation face a greater risk of sudden death

www.scientificamerican.com

Thanks. Unfortunately this Scientific American article isn't really useful imo and doesn't speak to JN's case with any certainty. The ME did do an autopsy however and I've read their detailed testimony. That speaks to JN's specific situation. Moo

I'll wait for the OP to provide something with more authority. Seems jmo this Scientific American summary for the layperson does, however, point out the importance of autopsy when determining whether sickle cell plays any role, and if so how much of one, in the rare deaths of athletes with the condition. Moo

But JN wasn't climbing a mountain, running a race or whatnot; he was in a chokehold, struggled for a short time until he no longer could, and was then rendered unconscious, twitching and then not breathing with a barely perceptible pulse whilst still in the chokehold. Bit different imo.

Harder to blame the victim JN here than the "non regulating" athlete mentioned in the article you linked (some coach being interviewed for the article you linked seems to suggest the sickle cell afflicted athlete may avoid the rare chance of dying during exertion by learning to "self regulate"; going with coach guy's suggestion for the moment, seems JN didn't really have a chance to "self regulate" when being choked but I digress). Moo

I'll await the OP's source, but appreciate the read so thanks again.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I've linked to several sources in recent posts.

Under extreme conditions such as high altitude, severe dehydration, or very high intensity physical activity, red cells can become deformed or sickled. Complications include muscle breakdown (rhabdomyolysis), reduced blood supply to the spleen (ischemia/infarction), or increased pressure in the eye (glaucoma) following eye injuries. Finally, a very rare form of kidney cancer (renal medullary carcinoma) has been associated with sickle cell trait.

Sickle Cell Trait

Understand the difference between sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia.

www.hematology.org

I've bolded words in the paragraph to try to explain my post. And, as I stated previously.... I am far from being a doctor. This is my lay interpretation of the information I've read.

Hemoglobin is a protein in blood that carries oxygen. For people who have SCT, the protein is abnormally shaped. During strenuous exercise, the abnormal hemoglobin in red blood cells can change the shape of those cells from round to a crescent moon or “sickle” shape. This is known as exertional sickling. These sickled cells can build up in the blood vessels causing a blockage. This restricts blood flow and can lead to collapse from the rapid breakdown of the muscles deprived of blood and oxygen, a condition known as rhabdomyolysis. In extreme cases, rhabdomyolysis has resulted in the deaths of high school and collegiate athletes as well as U.S. military recruits during basic training.

More Than a Cramp: Athletes with Sickle Cell Trait | CHKD Blog

Sickle cell trait is a blood disorder in which a sickle cell gene is inherited from one parent with a normal gene from the other. Learn how it affects athletes.

www.chkd.org

All, jmo

So struggling to breath from a lack of oxygen for 5 mins while exterting a " very high intensity physical activity,' could have triggered JN's CST?

 

[jepop]

I've linked to several sources in recent posts.

Under extreme conditions such as high altitude, severe dehydration, or very high intensity physical activity, red cells can become deformed or sickled. Complications include muscle breakdown (rhabdomyolysis), reduced blood supply to the spleen (ischemia/infarction), or increased pressure in the eye (glaucoma) following eye injuries. Finally, a very rare form of kidney cancer (renal medullary carcinoma) has been associated with sickle cell trait.

Sickle Cell Trait

Understand the difference between sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia.

www.hematology.org

I've bolded words in the paragraph to try to explain my post. And, as I stated previously.... I am far from being a doctor. This is my lay interpretation of the information I've read.

Hemoglobin is a protein in blood that carries oxygen. For people who have SCT, the protein is abnormally shaped. During strenuous exercise, the abnormal hemoglobin in red blood cells can change the shape of those cells from round to a crescent moon or “sickle” shape. This is known as exertional sickling. These sickled cells can build up in the blood vessels causing a blockage. This restricts blood flow and can lead to collapse from the rapid breakdown of the muscles deprived of blood and oxygen, a condition known as rhabdomyolysis. In extreme cases, rhabdomyolysis has resulted in the deaths of high school and collegiate athletes as well as U.S. military recruits during basic training.

More Than a Cramp: Athletes with Sickle Cell Trait | CHKD Blog

Sickle cell trait is a blood disorder in which a sickle cell gene is inherited from one parent with a normal gene from the other. Learn how it affects athletes.

www.chkd.org

All, jmo

Thanks

 

[IDK]

LE would be working within the authority given to them if they chose to taze or not adds no meaning to the performance of a civilian citizen attacking another citizen.

Sworn Law Enforcement has specialized training while some civilians may have had tactical training it’s not the same.

The officers are sworn to uphold the law and have arrest powers that provide them with the authority that comes with being the Police.


all imo

Correct. IMO we will never know if a different intervention would have had a better outcome, unfortunately.

If DP had done nothing, innocent bystanders could have been hurt/ killed. DP had no way of knowing if JN had a gun or knife.

IMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Correct. IMO we will never know if a different intervention would have had a better outcome, unfortunately.

If DP had done nothing, innocent bystanders could have been hurt/ killed. DP had no way of knowing if JN had a gun or knife.

IMO.

Yes,we will never know but what we do know is that you don't use lethal force on an unarmed person who assaulted no one and then with the help of 2 others strangle him to death in a chokehold.
jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

Correct. IMO we will never know if a different intervention would have had a better outcome, unfortunately.

If DP had done nothing, innocent bystanders could have been hurt/ killed. DP had no way of knowing if JN had a gun or knife.

IMO.

If JN had a weapon, it would've been rendered useless while DP held him in a chokehold. DP removed the threat of a weapon being used, if there had been a weapon. JN was subdued. JN was held on the floor of a subway car with men around him and passengers out of reach.

The threat was over.

Yet DP held the chokehold until JN died.

jmo

 

[fred&edna]

I stated my opinion (based on the links I've shared) that Neely's SCT and physical exertion could have played a part in his death... having me arrive at the personal opinion that his death wasn't expressly caused by a choke-hold alone.
Other factors such as drugs, an emotional/mental crisis and the restraint could all play a part... AND in my opinion are all as reasonable as the SCT/physical exertion suggestion by Dr C.
Since this is a discussion forum... I don't expect others to agree, and I am not attempting to change anyone's mind... my opinions are merely suggestions of what I think.

jmo

And, this... really really bothers me about Neely.

When they crossed paths in a subway car on May 1, 2023, Neely was begging for money, shouting about being willing to die or go to jail, and making sudden movements, according to witnesses. Penny's lawyers have said Neely lurched toward a woman with a small child and said, “I will kill.”

Pathologist disputes that Daniel Penny's chokehold caused Jordan Neely's death on subway

A forensic pathologist disputes a New York City medical examiner’s determination that former Marine Daniel Penny killed another man by placing him in a chokehold on a subway train last year.

www.nbcnewyork.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I stated my opinion (based on the links I've shared) that Neely's SCT and physical exertion could have played a part in his death... having me arrive at the personal opinion that his death wasn't expressly caused by a choke-hold alone.
Other factors such as drugs, an emotional/mental crisis and the restraint could all play a part... AND in my opinion are all as reasonable as the SCT/physical exertion suggestion by Dr C.
Since this is a discussion forum... I don't expect others to agree, and I am not attempting to change anyone's mind... my opinions are merely suggestions of what I think.

jmo

And, this... really really bothers me about Neely.

When they crossed paths in a subway car on May 1, 2023, Neely was begging for money, shouting about being willing to die or go to jail, and making sudden movements, according to witnesses. Penny's lawyers have said Neely lurched toward a woman with a small child and said, “I will kill.”

Pathologist disputes that Daniel Penny's chokehold caused Jordan Neely's death on subway

A forensic pathologist disputes a New York City medical examiner’s determination that former Marine Daniel Penny killed another man by placing him in a chokehold on a subway train last year.

www.nbcnewyork.com

Of course you're entitled to your opinion as is everyone else yet with those opinions about JN's SCT/K2 and paranoid schizophrenia comes the fact that led to his death.
Had JN not been deprived of oxygen for 6 mins none of those issues JN had would have been triggered,if they were at all.
JMO:

 

[Izzylizzy]

If JN had a weapon, it would've been rendered useless while DP held him in a chokehold. DP removed the threat of a weapon being used, if there had been a weapon. JN was subdued. JN was held on the floor of a subway car with men around him and passengers out of reach.

The threat was over.

Yet DP held the chokehold until JN died.

jmo

Excellent points, I hadn't even thought of that scenario.

 

[Inthedetails]

I stated my opinion (based on the links I've shared) that Neely's SCT and physical exertion could have played a part in his death... having me arrive at the personal opinion that his death wasn't expressly caused by a choke-hold alone.
Other factors such as drugs, an emotional/mental crisis and the restraint could all play a part... AND in my opinion are all as reasonable as the SCT/physical exertion suggestion by Dr C.
Since this is a discussion forum... I don't expect others to agree, and I am not attempting to change anyone's mind... my opinions are merely suggestions of what I think.

jmo

And, this... really really bothers me about Neely.

When they crossed paths in a subway car on May 1, 2023, Neely was begging for money, shouting about being willing to die or go to jail, and making sudden movements, according to witnesses. Penny's lawyers have said Neely lurched toward a woman with a small child and said, “I will kill.”

Pathologist disputes that Daniel Penny's chokehold caused Jordan Neely's death on subway

A forensic pathologist disputes a New York City medical examiner’s determination that former Marine Daniel Penny killed another man by placing him in a chokehold on a subway train last year.

www.nbcnewyork.com

Penny is not on trial for stopping a real or perceived threat by Neely.

Penny is on trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide.

The defendant, trained in chokeholds, held the victim in a chokehold for six minutes, when it takes less time than that for a chokehold to kill. (Source linked upthread today.)

The defendant subdued the victim and had him under control while the passengers left the train. The defendant continued to hold the chokehold until the victim died.

The time for the train to reach the station of Broadway-Layfayette from the previous station of W4th (it's my understanding the F train was traveling uptown), is about 3 minutes. All subway riders know the train doors open at the stations and there is egress from the cars. And the passengers did indeed leave, removing themselves from the potential danger.

Yet, the defendant continued to hold the victim in a chokehold. And the victim died while in that long chokehold.

I don't expect people who think sickle cell killed him while he was in a six-minute chokehold to agree with my assessment.

jmo

 

[Jade]

Correct. IMO we will never know if a different intervention would have had a better outcome, unfortunately.

If DP had done nothing, innocent bystanders could have been hurt/ killed. DP had no way of knowing if JN had a gun or knife.

IMO.

Yes we can know.

LE are trained and have the experience on the job to discern the difference between a threat or not and know when and how to act.

If the outcome is thought to be an unknown then at least recognize that the actions of the LE would be within perimeter of their training and with granted authority.

Could have, no way of knowing; one untrained person’s perceptions grants him power of judge, jury and executioner?


all imo

 

[Jade]

I stated my opinion (based on the links I've shared) that Neely's SCT and physical exertion could have played a part in his death... having me arrive at the personal opinion that his death wasn't expressly caused by a choke-hold alone.
Other factors such as drugs, an emotional/mental crisis and the restraint could all play a part... AND in my opinion are all as reasonable as the SCT/physical exertion suggestion by Dr C.
Since this is a discussion forum... I don't expect others to agree, and I am not attempting to change anyone's mind... my opinions are merely suggestions of what I think.

jmo

And, this... really really bothers me about Neely.

When they crossed paths in a subway car on May 1, 2023, Neely was begging for money, shouting about being willing to die or go to jail, and making sudden movements, according to witnesses. Penny's lawyers have said Neely lurched toward a woman with a small child and said, “I will kill.”

Pathologist disputes that Daniel Penny's chokehold caused Jordan Neely's death on subway

A forensic pathologist disputes a New York City medical examiner’s determination that former Marine Daniel Penny killed another man by placing him in a chokehold on a subway train last year.

www.nbcnewyork.com

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.
[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold


all imo

 

[SugarQueen]

Restrained by LE, not a citizen acting as a vigilante, as I firmly believe Penny was.

Would you still feel DP was a vigilante if JN hadn’t died?

 

[HmmMysterious]

Would you still feel DP was a vigilante if JN hadn’t died?

DP made sure JN wasn't coming out of that subway car alive IMO. So, I feel like your question is pointless

 

[Ontario Mom]

DP made sure JN wasn't coming out of that subway car alive IMO. So, I feel like your question is pointless

If that were true, he'd have been charged with murder. That did not happen.
There is zero evidence DP intended to kill JN.