Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Inthedetails]

If that were true, he'd have been charged with murder. That did not happen.
There is zero evidence DP intended to kill JN.

Correct. He is charged with manslaughter and negligent homicide. I appreciate the reminders when people post the charges and not try to make the case something it is not.

It is not about intent to kill... and it's not about stopping a real/perceived threat.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Dr.Harris had testified that sickle cells "sickle" from rigamortis.
And the ASP claims it's not possible to determine the number of cells that sickled prior to death.

These studies and conclusions are put out by the
"American Society of Hematology"

American Society of Hematology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Under extreme instances of tissue hypoxia, such as on a post-mortem examination, it is not uncommon to observe a varied degree of sickled red cells in patients with sickle cell trait. It is not possible at autopsy to determine the percent of red blood cell sickling which occurred prior to death (Thoreson 2014; Kark 1987; Goldsmith 2012). The detection of red cell sickling in sickle cell trait in vitro (Bookchin 1976; Noguchi 1981), in vivo (Martin 1989), and post-mortem at autopsy is, alone, insufficient to label sickle cell trait as a cause of death, particularly given the rarity of reported deaths due to sickle cell trait."

References:

ASH Position on Sickle Cell Trait - Hematology.org

ASH Position on Sickle Cell Trait

www.hematology.org

 

[SugarQueen]

DP made sure JN wasn't coming out of that subway car alive IMO. So, I feel like your question is pointless

Trying to clarify how someone else views something, or trying to understand someone else’s point of view is NEVER pointless. It’s a common thing in discussions and debates.

 

[IDK]

Yes we can know.

LE are trained and have the experience on the job to discern the difference between a threat or not and know when and how to act.

If the outcome is thought to be an unknown then at least recognize that the actions of the LE would be within perimeter of their training and with granted authority.

Could have, no way of knowing; one untrained person’s perceptions grants him power of judge, jury and executioner?


all imo

IMO, there is no way to know how LE might have responded and if JN might have escalated even more when confronted with armed, uniformed officers.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. IMO.

 

[IDK]

If JN had a weapon, it would've been rendered useless while DP held him in a chokehold. DP removed the threat of a weapon being used, if there had been a weapon. JN was subdued. JN was held on the floor of a subway car with men around him and passengers out of reach.

The threat was over.

Yet DP held the chokehold until JN died.

jmo

I have not heard all the testimony, I heard there is more today. I prefer to hear both sides all the way through and weigh the evidence presented.

I don’t believe the defense has rested yet. IMO.

 

[IDK]

Yes,we will never know but what we do know is that you don't use lethal force on an unarmed person who assaulted no one and then with the help of 2 others strangle him to death in a chokehold.
jmo

We will have to agree to disagree at this point. AFAIK, the defense hasn’t rested their case yet.
All IMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

I have not heard all the testimony, I heard there is more today. I prefer to hear both sides all the way through and weigh the evidence presented.

I don’t believe the defense has rested yet. IMO.

Great idea.

Evidence has been presented. The defendant held the victim in a chokehold after the immediate threat was resolved and passengers were out of the way - and he continued to hold the chokehold even as the victim was subdued. The victim died.

If defense counters that, I'm all ears. Discussing the case as it goes along to does preclude listening to all of it.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Yes we can know.

LE are trained and have the experience on the job to discern the difference between a threat or not and know when and how to act.

If the outcome is thought to be an unknown then at least recognize that the actions of the LE would be within perimeter of their training and with granted authority.

Could have, no way of knowing; one untrained person’s perceptions grants him power of judge, jury and executioner?


all imo

What I find very telling is that in NY state LE are prohibited from using chokeholds or any other measure on a person's body that could deny them oxygen when detaining them or when the subject is resisting arrest.

jmo

 

[Jade]

IMO, there is no way to know how LE might have responded and if JN might have escalated even more when confronted with armed, uniformed officers.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. IMO.

We don’t have the same point to disagree on.

I do not put Daniel Penny on the same level as LE.

Any outcome of sworn uniformed officers doing their job is irrelevant to DP’s criminally charged actions is my point.


all imo

 

[IDK]

We don’t have the same point to disagree on.

I do not put Daniel Penny on the same level as LE.

Any outcome of sworn uniformed officers doing their job is irrelevant to DP’s criminally charged actions is my point.


all imo

it’s a shame and tragedy they were not available to handle the situation. IMO.

 

[Glowing Chicken]

It’s simply not true that the immediate threat was resolved.

Because the threatening menace was still in close body contact with the one person who had stepped up to avert danger from the whole subway car. Mom & toddler & everybody else.

Even LE shows up in pairs or more, keeping their arms trained on a potentially dangerous person until one of them has safely cuffed and searched them.

How do we expect a heroic civilian simply let go and expect that the threatening maniac will now just be docile and wait calmly for LE to show up & cart him away?

Saying now that the chokehold went on too long just means that LE took too long to take the dangerous individual off the rescuers hands.

Especially after pretty much everyone had fled.

I can’t help but be scared by people disecting a heroic act to the point of making the hero now be the bad guy.

DP did not step onto that subway with the intend of choking a random person to death.

JN on the other hand did step onto that subway with the intend to cause harm.

There really should never have been brought suit against DP.
He was not a trained LEO to whom “excessive force” scrutiny should apply. Man against man he simply held onto the public threat until LE could relieve him.

All MOO, of course.

 

[Cryptic]

To me, that suggests DP was not cutting off his air supply--instead, his forearm was pressing against the side of JN's neck. The sleeper hold.

Somebody in a sleeper hold for six minutes is likely not to wake up.

Though sleepr holds use a different principal (deprivation of oxygen carrying blood, instead of air), and are less likely to cause permanent injury to the subject, they are still fatal if kept on too long.

 

[IceIce9]

Yes we can know.

LE are trained and have the experience on the job to discern the difference between a threat or not and know when and how to act.

If the outcome is thought to be an unknown then at least recognize that the actions of the LE would be within perimeter of their training and with granted authority.

Could have, no way of knowing; one untrained person’s perceptions grants him power of judge, jury and executioner?


all imo

This is a moot point because there were no members of LE present at the time JN was aggressively threatening passengers.

Had DP not been present, or had refused to act to protect the other passengers there could have been fatalities if JN had carried out his threat.

 

[Jade]

If that were true, he'd have been charged with murder. That did not happen.
There is zero evidence DP intended to kill JN.

Except for the video showing DP in a “trance” tightening his choke hold on JN for 6 minutes while others implored him to let go that JN was dying.

Penny presented as a self-defense and the defense of others so I think charges are decided on what they can get a win with the considerations of the law.


“He’s dying, you’ve got to let him go,” one startled straphanger could be heard shouting on video.

[…]

“He’s dying, you’ve got to let him go,” the woman yelled.

But Rosario, who identified Penny only as “the white man,” said that Penny held on.

“Did the white man’s arm ever leave Mr. Neely’s neck?” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No,” Rosario said.

[…]

A Brooklyn man aboard the same train also cautioned Penny that his choke could prove to be fatal, according to testimony Monday.

Goodson testified that his fiancée, like Penny, is a Marine Corps veteran with some experience in self-defense training. He said he called her when Penny first started restraining Neely. Based on what she told him, Goodson said he became concerned when he saw what appeared to be fresh feces in Neely’s blue sweatpants.

He urged Penny to loosen his grip.

“I said, if he’s defecating and urinating on himself, you’re gonna have to let him go because you’re going to kill him,” Goodson testified. “That didn’t stop Mr. Penny from holding him.”

Claiming that Penny appeared to be in a “trance,” Goodson said that Penny ignored numerous calls to let go of Neely from onlookers — including from one of the men that physically helped Penny subdue Neely.

Goodson was heard on another video played to the court, warning Penny and the other intervenors that Neely’s life could be waning in Penny’s arms.

“Once he’s defecated himself, that’s it,” Goodson was heard saying in the clip.


https://www.courthousenews.com/your...nny-in-clips-shown-at-nyc-manslaughter-trial/

all imo

 

[Jade]

This is a moot point because there were no members of LE present at the time JN was aggressively threatening passengers.

Had DP not been present, or had refused to act to protect the other passengers there could have been fatalities if JN had carried out his threat.

….no witnesses testified to seeing him display a weapon, threaten the use of a weapon or touch anyone before Penny wrapped his arms around him from behind and took him to the floor.

Daniel Penny's chokehold was sole cause of Jordan Neely's death, medical examiner testifies


all imo

 

[Inthedetails]

It’s simply not true that the immediate threat was resolved.

Because the threatening menace was still in close body contact with the one person who had stepped up to avert danger from the whole subway car. Mom & toddler & everybody else.

Even LE shows up in pairs or more, keeping their arms trained on a potentially dangerous person until one of them has safely cuffed and searched them.

How do we expect a heroic civilian simply let go and expect that the threatening maniac will now just be docile and wait calmly for LE to show up & cart him away?

Saying now that the chokehold went on too long just means that LE took too long to take the dangerous individual off the rescuers hands.

Especially after pretty much everyone had fled.

I can’t help but be scared by people disecting a heroic act to the point of making the hero now be the bad guy.

DP did not step onto that subway with the intend of choking a random person to death.

JN on the other hand did step onto that subway with the intend to cause harm.

There really should never have been brought suit against DP.
He was not a trained LEO to whom “excessive force” scrutiny should apply. Man against man he simply held onto the public threat until LE could relieve him.

All MOO, of course.

No, I don't expect him to simply let go, but that doesn't mean he should keep in a chokehold for six minutes. DP had JN in a subdued position. The chokehold was unnecessary.

And, yes, the passengers left the train. When trains enter the station, the doors open. The passengers who were afraid exited the train and got away from the threat. And I 100% understand their fear - I do not doubt their fear, but they got away while DP continued the chokehold when he could've restrained JN without strangling him. DP was trained and experienced in how to pin someone without strangling.

DP was in control of JN and JN died.

This isn't about stopping a threat. It's about knowingly using excessive force that killed a man who was subdued and no longer a threat.

jmo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

….no witnesses testified to seeing him display a weapon, threaten the use of a weapon or touch anyone before Penny wrapped his arms around him from behind and took him to the floor.

Daniel Penny's chokehold was sole cause of Jordan Neely's death, medical examiner testifies


all imo

Daniel Penny didn't have a weapon. So he was an unarmed man defending himself and others on the subway. JMO.

 

[Cryptic]

Penny's lawyers have said Neely lurched toward a woman with a small child and said, “I will kill.”

The woman in question testified that Neely never said that. Likewise, she testified that while she was wary, she did not feel that she was under immediate threat of being attacked.

I am thinking that if I killed every homeless person who disrupted by inner tranquility and "might" attack somebody, I would be a serial killer:

Victim Number One:

Drug addled and rolling: I caught the woman's eye when I was loading luggage into my car in Compton, California. She came into the parking lot and started screaming some pretty creative personal insults. She then followed me into the hotel's small dining room where my family was. She "might" have done any number of things- then got distracted momentarily by the juice machine. When I pretended like I was leaving, she followed me out- insults going non stop.

Victim Number Two

Pissed off panhandler with nothing in his pan. Giving a long rant mixing FUs with MFers, SOBs after panhandling did not pan out. Passer bys included young women. I continued on for about 100 feet, then turned to observe him. No "Kumbayah hug" from me. But, I did not start choking him either. He calmed down.

Victim Number Three

Parking Spot Peddler: Repeatedly threatened to harm me if I did not pay him for "his" public parking spot or leave. I did neither, but I did stay in my car as I did not want him to vandalize it. He wandered off to "claim" another parking spot

 

[Jade]

Daniel Penny didn't have a weapon. So he was an unarmed man defending himself and others on the subway. JMO.

So? He still killed JN who didn't have a weapon or threaten to use a weapon or even touch anyone before DP grabbed him from behind.

all imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So? He still killed the JN who didn't have a weapon or threaten to use a weapon or even touch anyone before DP grabbed him from behind.

all imo

So? Okay.

It means that Jordan Neely had the ability to harm others on the subway if he was allowed to carry out his threats. JMO.