GUILTY GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5

[wasnt_me]

I'm clear about what the various laws involved say, and how the judge plans to instruct the jury about the law, barring last minute alterations. What a jury will or won't believe is always unknowable, and I don't pretend to know what the verdict will be or how the jury will reach the conclusions they do.

But what I know now that I didn't before trial began, when I was very pessimistic about any of the 3 being convicted, is that:

--the State had an even better case against all 3 than was evident from everything presented pretrial.

-- all the defense had, imo, is wink wink nod nod, unsupported by fact allegations about AA, mostly dressed up as an understandable & reasonable concern about crime in the neighborhood, a concern shared by other reasonable & understandable & even perky, likable gun-toting women neighbors.

--Travis, imo, likely buried all 3 of defendants with his testimony. It was theoretically possible that his testimony would prove a gutsy move, and that he could explain himself well enough that inclined jurors might find the probable cause he was trying to sell.

What I saw & heard was someone who had clearly been coached to spit out the same lines, over & over, and one who simply could not keep track of his lies well enough & readily enough to credibly explain the many & very significant discrepancies between what he told LE & what he was saying on the stand. IMO he was utterly eviscerated on the stand.

I really very much believe a fair & impartial jury that follows the law as instructed would convict all 3 on all the charges. Sure do hope this is a fair & impartial jury.

That's fine. I'm clarifying that stealing isn't necessary because some believe that it is for burglary. That's all and not impeding on your understanding of anything.

 

[kaen]

I agree with you. Thanks. I often think that if I feel this way, how did my parents feel? How did my grandparents feel? Before that, my great grandfather was the son of a slave and first free man in my family on my father's side.

We'll see. Maybe GA will prove me wrong and impress me.

The most important thing to me is that so many more white people have begun to speak out and act as allies. The idea that justice still feels skewed is abhorrent yet it is true. The idea that you or anyone has to question when fairness and justice will be a part of your experience or your children's experience is intolerable.

I am reminded that Mr. Arbery might not have gotten justice but for this video and the people who linked arm in arm and refused to be quiet. The DA would have gotten her way and not have charged anyone. Or, her attempt to pass the case onto a DA who had the same mindset as her might have held.

I go back to Mr. Arbery's mothers first statements when she relayed that a LEO had called her to tell her that her son was killed as he was committing a robbery. In this case, we came far. The truth is that we should not have to come this far. The system should have scrutinized this shooting from the start. Mr. Arbery's race played a part in the easy assumption that it was a robbery/citizen's arrest gone awry. But, the DA is out. Her selected alternate DA is out. The veil has lifted. Finally some sunlight is disinfecting this area. I agree with you, I am hoping that GA will impress me.

 

[Smkd]

I'm clear about what the various laws involved say, and how the judge plans to instruct the jury about the law, barring last minute alterations. What a jury will or won't believe is always unknowable, and I don't pretend to know what the verdict will be or how the jury will reach the conclusions they do.

But what I know now that I didn't before trial began, when I was very pessimistic about any of the 3 being convicted, is that:

--the State had an even better case against all 3 than was evident from everything presented pretrial.

-- all the defense had, imo, is wink wink nod nod, unsupported by fact allegations about AA, mostly dressed up as an understandable & reasonable concern about crime in the neighborhood, a concern shared by other reasonable & understandable & even perky, likable gun-toting women neighbors.

--Travis, imo, likely buried all 3 of defendants with his testimony. It was theoretically possible that his testimony would prove a gutsy move, and that he could explain himself well enough that inclined jurors might find the probable cause he was trying to sell.

What I saw & heard was someone who had clearly been coached to spit out the same lines, over & over, and one who simply could not keep track of his lies well enough & readily enough to credibly explain the many & very significant discrepancies between what he told LE & what he was saying on the stand. IMO he was utterly eviscerated on the stand.

I really very much believe a fair & impartial jury that follows the law as instructed would convict all 3 on all the charges. Sure do hope this is a fair & impartial jury.

I agree that Travis may have single handedly ruined the case for the 3 of them.
There’s a reason for Dunikoski to mention probable cause so much during cross. From the beginning prosecution, defence and judge have said that for a citizens arrests to happen, there must be probably cause and not only reasonable suspicion. And probable cause = reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed + reason to connect a particular person to that crime. Law enforcement can investigate based on reasonable suspicion only, but citizens cannot perform a Terry stop just because they want to investigate further based on suspicion only. The fact that T admitted that he didn’t know what happened, he didn’t know if there had been a crime, and admitted and he was trying to ask AA what happened destroys his claim of having probable cause.

And now that the judge has said that, unless they provide other arguments before Monday, his ruling will be that the felony has to have been committed immediately before the citizens arrest, I don’t know how they can win this. But lawyers are crafty and juries are fickle, so you never know.

The defense themselves said that this ruling completely guts their case.

 

[Boxer]

The most important thing to me is that so many more white people have begun to speak out and act as allies. The idea that justice still feels skewed is abhorrent yet it is true. The idea that you or anyone has to question when fairness and justice will be a part of your experience or your children's experience is intolerable.

I am reminded that Mr. Arbery might not have gotten justice but for this video and the people who linked arm in arm and refused to be quiet. The DA would have gotten her way and not have charged anyone. Or, her attempt to pass the case onto a DA who had the same mindset as her might have held.

I go back to Mr. Arbery's mothers first statements when she relayed that a LEO had called her to tell her that her son was killed as he was committing a robbery. In this case, we came far. The truth is that we should not have to come this far. The system should have scrutinized this shooting from the start. Mr. Arbery's race played a part in the easy assumption that it was a robbery/citizen's arrest gone awry. But, the DA is out. Her selected alternate DA is out. The veil has lifted. Finally some sunlight is disinfecting this area. I agree with you, I am hoping that GA will impress me.

Yep. The police reported the cover story to AAs Mom.
That about sums up the police attitude and original DA on this case.

 

[Seattle1]

Does anyone here have PACER? I'm trying to find out what happened with the 11/19 hearing that was supposed to happen.
Brunsick Case #2:21-cr-22 And I have trial on 2/7/22.

TIA!

It did not happen -- it was rescheduled in October to 12/13/21:

#67

Oct 7, 2021

ORDER Granting in part Defendants' Oral Motion, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 3161(h) (7), and on the basis of the Court's finding the ends of justice will be served by granting the continuance outweigh the best interests of the public and Defendants in a speedy trial. Pretrial Motions due November 5, 2021. Joint Status Report due 12/9/2021. The Motions Hearing currently scheduled for November 19, 2021 is rescheduled for December 13, 2021, at 10:00 a.m., Brunswick Federal Courthouse, Courtroom 1. Signed by Magistrate Judge Benjamin W. Cheesbro on 10/7/2021. (csr) (Entered: 10/07/2021)

Docket for United States v. McMichael, 2:21-cr-00022 - CourtListener.com

 

[Cool Cats]

So why did AA keep going there?

The home owner thought he was drinking water. Makes sense, perfect sense really, because he is a regular jogger.

 

[JaxFlaGal]

I absolutely agree. AA's jogging/running route from his neighborhood into SS & directly to E's house consisted of a single road & about 1.7-1.8 miles. English testified during his depo that based on his surveillance cameras, he believed that after leaving his property AA crossed Satilla Shores & went onto Jones.

His going on Jones then turning left on Zellwood & exiting the neighborhood makes perfect sense IMO. It also explains why AA had never been seen jogging through the neighborhood. Before Feb 23, he had only gone to SS a handful of times, and at night. If English is correct, AA had the great good sense to not jog any further into that neighborhood, at least not at night. Yep, he probably stopped for a brief rest (which every video of him inside suggests) & perhaps a drink of water as he didn't jog with a water bottle.

I haven't followed the trial closely due to my work schedule this month. But I'm curious about something. I've seen a few posts in the last week or two, including this one, that said AA had never been seen jogging through the neighborhood. Does anyone happen to have a link to an article stating that?

I understand that they're not allowing the prosecution to discuss AA's running habits, but articles from the local news last year had indicated he had jogged in that neighborhood and that other residents of the Satilla community had observed him jogging there. There's little chance I'll locate the original WS posts with those links, but here's one article example from May 2020 (you can usually view 2-3 articles free, I believe):
Protesters "Run with Maud" In Satilla Shores

"In fact, some residents joined the march. Nancy and Ann (both declined to give last names) filed in with the marchers at Zellwood Drive. Nancy said she often saw Arbery jogging through the neighborhood. She just wanted to show her support.
“It’s my neighborhood,” Nancy said. “I had seen him jogging. It scares me that something was this reckless. I know the McMichaels, but this just wasn’t right.”"​

 

[JayWill]

Yep. The police reported the cover story to AAs Mom.
That about sums up the police attitude and original DA on this case.

Why hasn't that policeman who told the lie to AA's mother been charged with anything?

 

[Cool Cats]

I haven't followed the trial closely due to my work schedule this month. But I'm curious about something. I've seen a few posts in the last week or two, including this one, that said AA had never been seen jogging through the neighborhood. Does anyone happen to have a link to an article stating that?

I understand that they're not allowing the prosecution to discuss AA's running habits, but articles from the local news last year had indicated he had jogged in that neighborhood and that other residents of the Satilla community had observed him jogging there. There's little chance I'll locate the original WS posts with those links, but here's one article example from May 2020 (you can usually view 2-3 articles free, I believe):
Protesters "Run with Maud" In Satilla Shores

"In fact, some residents joined the march. Nancy and Ann (both declined to give last names) filed in with the marchers at Zellwood Drive. Nancy said she often saw Arbery jogging through the neighborhood. She just wanted to show her support.
“It’s my neighborhood,” Nancy said. “I had seen him jogging. It scares me that something was this reckless. I know the McMichaels, but this just wasn’t right.”"​

Some neighbors saw him jogging but not everyone did.

Not everyone is going to see someone jogging. Depends on if a person is looking at the street in the second he runs by or if they live on a neighborhood road he doesn't usually run on etc...

Enough people knew about his jogging to confirm he was a jogger and that he jogged in that general area. In other words, his reason to be going by the house under construction was because he was jogging and possibly stopping there to take a breather and drink some H20.

A good place to rest and cool off actually. It's hot and humid in Georgia.

If he had stolen the fishing equipment or whatever he would not keep going back there, no way. Makes zero sense. Let everyone see him at 1:00pm in the afternoon, I don't think so.

 

[clearskies1]

So why did AA keep going there?

People can be interested in construction. That's what it seems to me was happening here. He was seeing the progress. JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

People can be interested in construction. That's what it seems to me was happening here. He was seeing the progress. JMO.

Yup.

1.) Watching the construction process like other people were doing.

2.) Take a rest stop from jogging.

Lead prosecutor Linda Dunikoski says Arbery lived with his mother. "He was also a brother, he was an uncle — and he was also an avid runner," she added. She said the jury will see photos of Arbery's shoes, with the treads nearly worn off.

3.) Get a drink of water according to the property owner.

4.) Cool off from jogging in the hot humid Georgia weather, a place to get out of the sun.

5.) Enjoyed looking at the water view in back of the house. Many people like looking at boats and water.

"Larry English had long dreamed of owning a waterfront home. It was on his bucket list. He wanted easy access to fish and boat and a peaceful distraction from the stress of his heart-related illness."

 

[clearskies1]

Yup.

1.) Watching the construction process like other people were doing.

2.) Take a rest stop from jogging.

3.) Get a drink of water according to the property owner.

4.) Cool off from jogging in the hot humid Georgia weather, a place to get out of the sun.

5.) Enjoyed looking at the water view in back of the house. Many people like looking at boats and water.

Agree. Zero evidence of anything nefarious. Zero. JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Agree. Zero evidence of anything nefarious. Zero. JMO.

Yup. The homeowner's opinion too.

"Ahmaud did not take anything from the construction site," the family's lawyers said in a statement. "He did not cause any damage to the property. He remained for a brief period of time and was not instructed by anyone to leave but rather left on his own accord to continue his jog. Ahmaud's actions at this empty home under construction were in no way a felony under Georgia law."

 

[Hope4More]

I haven't followed the trial closely due to my work schedule this month. But I'm curious about something. I've seen a few posts in the last week or two, including this one, that said AA had never been seen jogging through the neighborhood. Does anyone happen to have a link to an article stating that?

I understand that they're not allowing the prosecution to discuss AA's running habits, but articles from the local news last year had indicated he had jogged in that neighborhood and that other residents of the Satilla community had observed him jogging there. There's little chance I'll locate the original WS posts with those links, but here's one article example from May 2020 (you can usually view 2-3 articles free, I believe):
Protesters "Run with Maud" In Satilla Shores

"In fact, some residents joined the march. Nancy and Ann (both declined to give last names) filed in with the marchers at Zellwood Drive. Nancy said she often saw Arbery jogging through the neighborhood. She just wanted to show her support.
“It’s my neighborhood,” Nancy said. “I had seen him jogging. It scares me that something was this reckless. I know the McMichaels, but this just wasn’t right.”"​

I remember at least several news reports from back then that said he'd been seen jogging in SS. I'm not sure they were accurate. The State was ready to have 4-5 witnesses testify they knew AA jogged & they were aware of areas where he typically went. SS wasn't on the list. Neither did the State seem to dispute the defense's many solicitations from witnesses that no one in the neighborhood had ever seen AA there at all, jogging or otherwise.

Given their collective degree of paranoia, and the near certainty an alarm would have been raised had he been spotted running, imo it's reasonable to conclude AA likely didn't in fact jog there, other than the 4-5 times barely there, exiting on Jones.

 

[kaen]

So why did AA keep going there?

It seems like it was a flat road with lots of space to run and not so much traffic. His neighborhood was across the major road. The house (as are all houses that are being built) was probably fun to see the change, the water view, and the ideas that a builder is using. Mr. English thought he might be going there as a pit stop to get a drink of water.

Regardless, Satilla Shores is not a private community. The roads are public maintained and, therefore, open to the public. No person should ever feel like they can't walk or be present anywhere in this country. I get the feeling of vulnerability when crime is happening in your neighborhood. But, he was profiled. He was never seen on camera taking or destroying anything.

Is it unfortunate that people took things from cars? Absolutely, every once in a couple of months people rifle through cars in my area. We keep our car locked day and night even though we are set back a bit from the road. The stealing of the gun (and the not knowing when it occurred) is a terribly dangerous thing regardless of the feelings of loss of your gun--- someone could be shot and killed with your stolen gun.

The McMichaels remind me of families in my neighborhood when I grew up---working class entitled because they have LE backgrounds and skirt the law whenever because they can. The folks I knew would speed up and down the road, run lights and signs b/c as they said, "Dad knows every cop. They won't touch me." That kind of bravado didn't work out well for my neighbors (finally, had a DUI, went to jail b/c he seriously injured the passenger in another car as well as his girl friend who wound up paralyzed) and isn't working for Travis McMichael. He knew he shouldn't be chasing Mr. Arbery. He refused to follow his father's directions at one point. But, then, he relented and chased him more before killing Mr. Arbery.

 

[Cool Cats]

A good view of the neighborhood and house under construction. Note boat launch and H20 access in back. Certainly an interesting place to stop and look around at the house under construction and the water.

220 Satilla Drive — Single family home, an open, unsecured construction site owned by Larry English.



Ahmaud Arbery: Focus on Media Bias, Because ‘The Issue Is Never the Issue’

 

[Cool Cats]

It seems like it was a flat road with lots of space to run and not so much traffic. His neighborhood was across the major road. The house (as are all houses that are being built) was probably fun to see the change, the water view, and the ideas that a builder is using. Mr. English thought he might be going there as a pit stop to get a drink of water.

Regardless, Satilla Shores is not a private community. The roads are public maintained and, therefore, open to the public. No person should ever feel like they can't walk or be present anywhere in this country. I get the feeling of vulnerability when crime is happening in your neighborhood. But, he was profiled. He was never seen on camera taking or destroying anything.

Is it unfortunate that people took things from cars? Absolutely, every once in a couple of months people rifle through cars in my area. We keep our car locked day and night even though we are set back a bit from the road. The stealing of the gun (and the not knowing when it occurred) is a terribly dangerous thing regardless of the feelings of loss of your gun--- someone could be shot and killed with your stolen gun.

The McMichaels remind me of families in my neighborhood when I grew up---working class entitled because they have LE backgrounds and skirt the law whenever because they can. The folks I knew would speed up and down the road, run lights and signs b/c as they said, "Dad knows every cop. They won't touch me." That kind of bravado didn't work out well for my neighbors (finally, had a DUI, went to jail b/c he seriously injured the passenger in another car as well as his girl friend who wound up paralyzed) and isn't working for Travis McMichael. He knew he shouldn't be chasing Mr. Arbery. He refused to follow his father's directions at one point. But, then, he relented and chased him more before killing Mr. Arbery.

What were his father's directions?

Your quote:

"He knew he shouldn't be chasing Mr. Arbery. He refused to follow his father's directions at one point. But, then, he relented and chased him more before killing Mr. Arbery."

 

[SharonNeedles]

People can be interested in construction. That's what it seems to me was happening here. He was seeing the progress. JMO.

You’re joking I hope…

 

[Cool Cats]

You’re joking I hope…

Why would it be a joke to stop in and look at a house under construction?

 

[kaen]

What were his father's directions?

Your quote:

"He knew he shouldn't be chasing Mr. Arbery. He refused to follow his father's directions at one point. But, then, he relented and chased him more before killing Mr. Arbery."

It was mentioned by the pros. that GM told TM go turn and go certain directions during the chase. TM didn't follow those directions but eventually came around the dog leg and found Mr. Arbery again.