I'm so angry part 2

kgeaux said:
I think the Louisiana emergency plan states that hospitals are responsible for coming up with their own plans (!) The plan must be OK'd by the state, but the hospital is in charge. I'm not sure about nursing homes. There's so much info in there, and I confess now that I haven't waded through all of it.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf


Well, that would make sense, actually. Who else would know it and the intricacies of their own facilities and needs better than the staff that works there....
 
DEPUTYDAWG said:
Well, that would make sense, actually. Who else would know it and the intricacies of their own facilities and needs better than the staff that works there....


Hey, deputy! I went back and edited...nursing homes are mentioned in the section. Unless there is something else furthur into the plan that contridicts this (and how often does that happen? always!) then it sounds as though the nursing home employees and directors are going to be the ones at fault here.
 
still going through the plan: pg. 21 contains the information that the state will direct the evacuation and shelter of persons in a nursing home, hospital, group home. It's aint looking too pretty.

I am wondering if anything at all went right?
 
kgeaux said:
still going through the plan: pg. 21 contains the information that the state will direct the evacuation and shelter of persons in a nursing home, hospital, group home. It's aint looking too pretty.

I am wondering if anything at all went right?

Page II-3, (Under "Assumptions"):

#14. Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined evacuation and/or refugee plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals, emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water) on upper floors."
 
DEPUTYDAWG said:
Page II-3, (Under "Assumptions"):

#14. Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined evacuation and/or refugee plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals, emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water) on upper floors."
The nursing home was offered evacuation (vehicles were sent and refused) before the storm and they refused. When the waters started to rise about 25 people were floated out and saved - the rest died along with the caretaker who stayed with them.
So they HAD a plan and the nursing home refused evacuation.
As to the hospitals, they too had a plan - and generators, and supplies. Most hospitals do NOT evacuate in a Hurricane - many patients too ill for moving them. The ultimate responsibility is the hospital's, not the State's.
 
cynder said:
The nursing home was offered evacuation (vehicles were sent and refused) before the storm and they refused. When the waters started to rise about 25 people were floated out and saved - the rest died along with the caretaker who stayed with them.
So they HAD a plan and the nursing home refused evacuation.
As to the hospitals, they too had a plan - and generators, and supplies. Most hospitals do NOT evacuate in a Hurricane - many patients too ill for moving them. The ultimate responsibility is the hospital's, not the State's.

Oh my God. They refused help? What on earth could they have been thinking!
 
DEPUTYDAWG said:
Page II-3, (Under "Assumptions"):

#14. Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined evacuation and/or refugee plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals, emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water) on upper floors."
I sent my sister an email this am to ask her the 'splain how this should all go down.
I mean I know she gives seminars and conferences on this stuff, so I'm wondering who approves or facilitates the evacuation locations? SOunds like they have to submit an acceptable plan.
I'll let you know what she says , but she's working round the clock.
 
JBean said:
I sent my sister an email this am to ask her the 'splain how this should all go down.
I mean I know she gives seminars and conferences on this stuff, so I'm wondering who approves or facilitates the evacuation locations? SOunds like they have to submit an acceptable plan.
I'll let you know what she says , but she's working round the clock.

Thanks! Inquiring minds wanna know.... :waitasec:
 
kgeaux said:
still going through the plan: pg. 21 contains the information that the state will direct the evacuation and shelter of persons in a nursing home, hospital, group home. It's aint looking too pretty.

I am wondering if anything at all went right?
When the foundation of the evacuation plan (city/state) buckles like this one did, it's nealry impossible for the next rung up on the ladder to support what is already falling down.
 
JBean said:
When the foundation of the evacuation plan (city/state) buckles like this one did, it's nealry impossible for the next rung up on the ladder to support what is already falling down.

Exactly. And when you're in the middle of the crisis, communication lines are down, etc. - hard to know what is really going on at the lower level. Sometimes, the higher level has to assume (I know, but...) that the lower level is doing what it's supposed to do.... that next level up has it's own things it should be doing, not babysitting all the lower level activities. IMO
 
We have an item on our agenda this very month to approve a resolution supporting the National Incident Management System which says in part:

Whereas, to facilitate the most efficient and effective incident management it is critical that Federal, State, local, and tribal organizations utilize standardized terminology; standardized organizational structures; interoperable communications; consolidated action plans; unified command structures; uniform personnel qualifications; uniform standards for planning, training, and exercising; comprehensive resource management; and designated incident facilities during emergencies or disasters; and

Whereas, the NIMS standardized procedures for managing personnel, communications, facilities, and resources will improve the local’s ability to utilize the State and Federal funding to enhance local agencies readiness, maintain first responder safety, and streamline incident management processes


And this was given to us from our County Emergency Management through the State Emergency Management last month to consider at this month's meeting even before the Hurricane Katrina event.
 
DEPUTYDAWG said:
Exactly. And when you're in the middle of the crisis, communication lines are down, etc. - hard to know what is really going on at the lower level. Sometimes, the higher level has to assume (I know, but...) that the lower level is doing what it's supposed to do.... that next level up has it's own things it should be doing, not babysitting all the lower level activities. IMO
We can even go alittle farther down the ladder to the individuals. While it would not have saved everyone, if some of these people had plan in place for this type of catastrophe, it would have saved some of these people that were completely helpless.
I know people that left 2 days prior with their rations and are 100%fine.

While I recognize that many of these people were poor, it strikes me odd that with such a high percentage of indigence that there wasn't some statewide hurricane supply program or something along those lines for the individual to sustain? Food or ration coupons to be exchanged for supplies once a year or something.

This goes back to what the priorities are of the people we put in office. Individual vote really matters. This will be an issue that just got bumped up on my "important" scale when comparing candidates for office.
 
kgeaux said:
Oh my God. They refused help? What on earth could they have been thinking!
The same thing a LOT of people were thinking - we'll be fine, we'll ride it out, the levees will hold. We have never been hit, it will die down, we survived Camille, the building has been here since 1902, we're safe. There are also issues of where to take these people, care issues, management issues (dementia, for instance).
I don't think ANYONE was realistic where Katrina was concerned. I am not sure many of the people who stayed would have evacuated if a bus had been parked at their door. Thousands arrived at the Superdome not BEFORE the hurricane but during it and the day after when the levee broke. At the count before the Hurricane there were about 5000 there - after the number swelled to over 30,000 with another 25,000 who showed up after the hurricane and flooding at the Convention center - which was NEVER officially designated as a shelter.
Not everyone who remained in NO was indigent or without transportation - many people have said they COULD have evacuated, but didn't. Some got tired of waiting in the traffic and decided to return home instead. A lot of people in Dallas are already lookingto replace "lost" transportation so it is apparent that they HAD a means of evacuating and did not by personal choice.
Blame here cannot be placed totally in any one person's hands. A number of failures contributed - and they range from individual decisions right up to the President.
 
cynder said:
The same thing a LOT of people were thinking - we'll be fine, we'll ride it out, the levees will hold. We have never been hit, it will die down, we survived Camille, the building has been here since 1902, we're safe. There are also issues of where to take these people, care issues, management issues (dementia, for instance).
I don't think ANYONE was realistic where Katrina was concerned. I am not sure many of the people who stayed would have evacuated if a bus had been parked at their door. Thousands arrived at the Superdome not BEFORE the hurricane but during it and the day after when the levee broke. At the count before the Hurricane there were about 5000 there - after the number swelled to over 30,000 with another 25,000 who showed up after the hurricane and flooding at the Convention center - which was NEVER officially designated as a shelter.
Not everyone who remained in NO was indigent or without transportation - many people have said they COULD have evacuated, but didn't. Some got tired of waiting in the traffic and decided to return home instead. A lot of people in Dallas are already lookingto replace "lost" transportation so it is apparent that they HAD a means of evacuating and did not by personal choice.
Blame here cannot be placed totally in any one person's hands. A number of failures contributed - and they range from individual decisions right up to the President.

You can look at all the footage of cars under water and tell that many who had transportation even, didn't leave. Maybe they didn't think they had anywhere to go to.... And I can't believe the pictures of traffic snarled going in one direction only on one side of the freeway. Why in the world didn't somebody put those folks on both sides of the freeway going OUT? And there again, personal responsibility - I would have driven through or over the median or got off on an exit and took the on ramp down onto the freeway going the opposite direction. The pictures I saw didn't show any cars coming in - so having a head on collision wasn't that big of a chance - if you were careful and watchful.
 
less0305 said:
We have an item on our agenda this very month to approve a resolution supporting the National Incident Management System which says in part:

Whereas, to facilitate the most efficient and effective incident management it is critical that Federal, State, local, and tribal organizations utilize standardized terminology; standardized organizational structures; interoperable communications; consolidated action plans; unified command structures; uniform personnel qualifications; uniform standards for planning, training, and exercising; comprehensive resource management; and designated incident facilities during emergencies or disasters; and

Whereas, the NIMS standardized procedures for managing personnel, communications, facilities, and resources will improve the local’s ability to utilize the State and Federal funding to enhance local agencies readiness, maintain first responder safety, and streamline incident management processes


And this was given to us from our County Emergency Management through the State Emergency Management last month to consider at this month's meeting even before the Hurricane Katrina event.

Very interesting, and good luck!

To give some credit to Dept of Homeland Security, etc., after 9/11... there have been great improvements to our Agency's interoperable communications (about a 2 year project that I think has been completed)...and I read something awhile ago about HUGE improvements made in communication capabilities in the El Paso area's agencies - they really had poor equipment, communications, etc. and they're on the front line with Mexico and border security issues, etc. And there have been many other new projects, training emphasis, etc. on things such as what you listed above.

Also, I've read very little on it so far, but there seems to be some act (national, I believe) that police agencies are going to have to start abiding by more standard terminology and codes. Speaking as one who's worked in two agencies with completely different codes, and married to another agency officer, who had many codes that were different, this is a good thing! It can get confusing working a scene and not talking the same language, haha.
 
less0305 said:
You can look at all the footage of cars under water and tell that many who had transportation even, didn't leave. Maybe they didn't think they had anywhere to go to.... And I can't believe the pictures of traffic snarled going in one direction only on one side of the freeway. Why in the world didn't somebody put those folks on both sides of the freeway going OUT? And there again, personal responsibility - I would have driven through or over the median or got off on an exit and took the on ramp down onto the freeway going the opposite direction. The pictures I saw didn't show any cars coming in - so having a head on collision wasn't that big of a chance - if you were careful and watchful.

I wondered about that as well, why only on one side of the freeway? :doh: I know I skimmed over the transportation route info in that LA document posted awhile ago, and when I've got more time, I'll find what it said. But here's a little in that document:

Page II-3 (Under "Assumptions" again):

19. US Highways 11, 61, 90 and 190 are unlimited access routes having numerous entrances and exits. It is not practical to limit access to them in time of emergency or to convert them to one-way outbound evacuation routes. Traffic flow will continue normally, and two-way traffic of emergency vehicles will be directed to these routes.

20. Interstate highways are limited access routes. Entrances and exits can be controlled to make the routes into one-way outbound evacuation routes. The LA State Police (LSP) and Dept. of Transportation and Development (DOTD) shall provide the management of the traffic flow, assisted by the LA National Guard (LANG).
 
less0305 said:
You can look at all the footage of cars under water and tell that many who had transportation even, didn't leave. Maybe they didn't think they had anywhere to go to.... And I can't believe the pictures of traffic snarled going in one direction only on one side of the freeway. Why in the world didn't somebody put those folks on both sides of the freeway going OUT? And there again, personal responsibility - I would have driven through or over the median or got off on an exit and took the on ramp down onto the freeway going the opposite direction. The pictures I saw didn't show any cars coming in - so having a head on collision wasn't that big of a chance - if you were careful and watchful.
The designated evacuation routes WERE made one way (both sides) but some streets/roads were not - for purposes of emergency vehicles etc going IN or doing other duties. People still have to be able to get around the city - even in an evacuation. Not every highway, every section is made "one way" - which is why they designate some as evacuation routes - open only to outflowing vehicles.
It STILL was hours and hours getting out though - and it would have been hours in a hot schoolbus for those people if they had used them to evacuate people. I can see elderly, sick and those with small kids not wanting to be stuck in ANY vehicle for hours and hours just to get out - and to where - an overcrowded shelter in Baton Rouge? They just didn't grasp how bad it was going to get in New Orleans. And others in MS, AL and parts of LA outside NO did the same thing - they stayed. And if you look, these many of these folks were not "indigent" either - these were expensive homes and condos/apts on the water (or near) and there was NO impediment to them leaving (traffic, transportation, money etc) - they just chose not to. One lady interviewed said no-one in her area left - these were homes that had stood for 125 years and they were confident they would be fine in Katrina. And it wasn't the winds, but the storm surge that destroyed this area. Even educated, capable, intelligent people though they could ride out Katrina at home. Too many false alarms in the past perhaps had made them complacent, I think. They had evacuated before for nothing and this one happened to "get them".
 
cynder said:
The designated evacuation routes WERE made one way (both sides) but some streets/roads were not - for purposes of emergency vehicles etc going IN or doing other duties. People still have to be able to get around the city - even in an evacuation. Not every highway, every section is made "one way" - which is why they designate some as evacuation routes - open only to outflowing vehicles.
It STILL was hours and hours getting out though - and it would have been hours in a hot schoolbus for those people if they had used them to evacuate people. I can see elderly, sick and those with small kids not wanting to be stuck in ANY vehicle for hours and hours just to get out - and to where - an overcrowded shelter in Baton Rouge? They just didn't grasp how bad it was going to get in New Orleans. And others in MS, AL and parts of LA outside NO did the same thing - they stayed. And if you look, these many of these folks were not "indigent" either - these were expensive homes and condos/apts on the water (or near) and there was NO impediment to them leaving (traffic, transportation, money etc) - they just chose not to. One lady interviewed said no-one in her area left - these were homes that had stood for 125 years and they were confident they would be fine in Katrina. And it wasn't the winds, but the storm surge that destroyed this area. Even educated, capable, intelligent people though they could ride out Katrina at home. Too many false alarms in the past perhaps had made them complacent, I think. They had evacuated before for nothing and this one happened to "get them".
I think dodging the bullet time and time again is the key here. Individuals have to accept their individual responsibilty for not reacting.Which is why I am sitting up and taking notice in my area. WE have had countless earthquakes and even though I have been warned about the big one time and time again, I ignore the warnings as well. Not any more.
But what you say about where the non-evacuees is critical. Their destination and who got them there should have all been predetermined. It almost seems like the city was winging it. It did not have to go down the way it did. there were alternatives in place, or should have been. Many of the locals did nothing for themselves and the local governement did nothing for it locals. It was doomed from the start.
 

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