MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

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  • #421
If his parents are to blame for his alleged crime, what sense does it make to try him as an adult?

No one has said his parents are at fault and he isn't. They are definitely all at fault, IMO.
But you also ask, Should he be tried as an adult?
Maybe the sentencing guidelines for specific violent crimes for minors is what needs to change, I just don't know.
 
  • #422
In my view, anyone old enough to learn how to handle / shoot a gun ("my beauty") and premeditate a mass shooting is old enough to suffer the unvarnished, life-altering (read: adult) consequences. As for ultimate legal responsibility, there is no teen vs parents in this latest, wretched tragedy ... EC and both his parents are collectively 100% liable. Life in prison, no parole.

Absolutely. You've explained it so well.

The operative issue is did he know what he was doing was wrong? Also, did he know what the outcome would be? The answers are yes and yes.

There is no equivalence to a five-year old who picks up a gun lying around the house and accidentally kills a family member.

The one time we had a student with a gun, we were locked down for hours. The students who were with me at the time were in hysterics because they were afraid for themselves and their siblings elsewhere in the school. Why? Because obviously they knew what the outcome would be if that boy shot that gun. (Thankfully he was eventually persuaded to hand it over without shooting anyone).

He was 14 and so were my students. At 14 the consequences are well understood.
Ethan understood. Ethan planned. Ethan followed through.

And IMO this was a three-person crime. It's true that he was old enough to plan, to lie, and to execute his plan. But legally he was not old enough to purchase or own a gun. So they are all guilty because they facilitated this by equipping him and making available to him this weapon.

Moo
 
  • #423
Agreed. At his age, he doesn’t operate like a 5 year old where he has no concept of death and doesn’t understand the results/consequences that comes from his actions. He knew that by aiming for the head and chest at close range, those poor kids would never come back alive again. This was not an accidental killing, or even a heat of the moment argument that resulted in a killing. This was a pre-meditated mass murder plot that he had longed on for weeks. This event lasted for 4-5 minutes. Put a timer on for that many minutes and you’d realize how scarily long that feels. After having fired 30 bullets in the hallway, he was still not finished with his killing spree yet, because when the police apprehended him they found 18 live rounds of ammunition left. His intentions were to murder as many students as possible.
 
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  • #424
Notwithstanding the horrific crime committed wherein four children were murdered and countless other victims were traumatized, the murderer, at 15 years of age, is a child.

In the US, the age of majority is 18 years. This in itself is a questionable categorization.

As the frontal lobe of our brains isn't fully developed until our mid-twenties, or perhaps even later, the classification of adulthood prior to maturity of the brain's area responsible for executive functions is preposterous. We cannot consider a child has the same level of judgement and self-governing control expected of an adult.

IMO, it is wrong, even absurd, to categorize juveniles as all those under 18-years-old, only to determine that in some particular circumstances a juvenile is an adult.


In the last decade, a growing body of longitudinal neuroimaging research has demonstrated that adolescence is a period of continued brain growth and change, challenging longstanding assumptions that the brain was largely finished maturing by puberty [13]. The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying “executive functions” such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life [2]. This finding has prompted interest in linking stage of neuromaturation to maturity of judgment.
Adolescent Maturity and the Brain: The Promise and Pitfalls of Neuroscience Research in Adolescent Health Policy.

But do you think he should be tried as an adult so he doesn't get a parole hearing at age 21?

I think they try kids as adults just for the adult sentences they can get, I think that is the whole point in why they do it. Also, it keeps them away from other kids because they sit in adult jails.

A kid who murders they want him off the streets for a long long time. Trying them as adults in Michigan guarantees this.
 
  • #425
But do you think he should be tried as an adult so he doesn't get a parole hearing at age 21?

I think they try kids as adults just for the adult sentences they can get, I think that is the whole point in why they do it. Also, it keeps them away from other kids because they sit in adult jails.

A kid who murders they want him off the streets for a long long time. Trying them as adults in Michigan guarantees this.

Personally, I definitely want him off the streets for good. LWOP for sure!
 
  • #426
Personally, I definitely want him off the streets for good. LWOP for sure!

It would be too much to think of him getting out free on the streets because 10 years earlier he was tried as a juvenile. Shudder.
 
  • #427
Are parents criminally responsible for the actions of their child? In the Oxford shooting case, prosecutors say yes

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Parents of school shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley appear in court
Crumbley-Shooter-parents-3.jpg

michigan-parents-02.jpg

michigan-parents-01.jpg


One of the key questions for jurors, assuming no plea deal is reached, is whether the parents knew that a school shooting would occur or had reckless disregard of this fact. To prove the parents’ gross negligence, the prosecution will most likely rely on a series of alleged facts.

‘Egregious’ behavior

Among the most central facts is that the Crumbleys bought their son the handgun as a Christmas present and later took him to target practice.

Neither parent informed the school that they had bought the gun and that their son had access to it.

After being told that her son was searching for ammo on his phone at school, Jennifer Crumbley told her son via text message not to get caught: “LOL I’m not mad. You have to learn not to get caught.”

Neither of the parents opted to remove their son from school after being told that a teacher found a disturbing drawing of a bloody figure in his desk.

Finally, the gun was unsecured.

Though the prosecution’s case appears compelling, the Crumbleys’ defense team has some very strong counterarguments.

For starters, the weapon was legal to own, and Michigan has no law requiring the gun to be properly stored away from juveniles. As for informing the school about their son’s access to weapons, the defense will likely argue that the Crumbleys had no duty to do so, nor were they required to pull their son from school.

Finally, with regards to the text, Jennifer Crumbley will most likely claim that her text about the ammo was sent jokingly and she thought her son planned to shoot at targets, not other children.

A first grader’s death

In the rare instances that parents of school shooters are prosecuted, they are normally charged with crimes such as child abuse, child neglect and failure to properly secure a firearm. The charge lodged against the Crumbleys, involuntary manslaughter, also known as gross negligent homicide, is even more uncommon.

But it’s not without precedent.

In 2000, Jamelle James, a Michigan resident, pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter for leaving his handgun in a shoebox in his bedroom. At the time, James lived in an apartment prosecutors described as a “flophouse” that was shared with a number of people, including two young children.

A 6-year-old boy – James’ nephew – was temporarily living in the apartment and discovered the gun, brought it to school and fatally shot his first grade classmate Kayla Rolland. James spent more than two years in prison before he was released on probation.

Prosecutors claimed that James’ conduct was “grossly negligent” and “so reckless as to demonstrate a substantial lack of concern for whether an injury resulted.” Arguably, leaving an unsecured gun around very young children demonstrated James’ gross negligence.
 
  • #428
@Cool Cats sbm Thanks for your post. At 2 paragraphs, I hit paywall.

Rephrasing ^ question: If his parents are to blame for his alleged crime, why try him at all?
Not being snarky. Really just thinking about trying him as juvie or adult, which is more appropriate?
There is a difference (in theory) in the approach with juveniles--a thought that they are young and can be rehabilitated.
Absolutely. You've explained it so well.

The operative issue is did he know what he was doing was wrong? Also, did he know what the outcome would be? The answers are yes and yes.

There is no equivalence to a five-year old who picks up a gun lying around the house and accidentally kills a family member.

The one time we had a student with a gun, we were locked down for hours. The students who were with me at the time were in hysterics because they were afraid for themselves and their siblings elsewhere in the school. Why? Because obviously they knew what the outcome would be if that boy shot that gun. (Thankfully he was eventually persuaded to hand it over without shooting anyone).

He was 14 and so were my students. At 14 the consequences are well understood.
Ethan understood. Ethan planned. Ethan followed through.

And IMO this was a three-person crime. It's true that he was old enough to plan, to lie, and to execute his plan. But legally he was not old enough to purchase or own a gun. So they are all guilty because they facilitated this by equipping him and making available to him this weapon.

Moo
Trying him as a juvenile doesn't mean that we are saying he didn't know right from wrong. The juvenile court system isn't saying they don't know they are committing crimes.
 
  • #429
An art teacher in Michigan is accused of making a false threat so classes would be canceled and she could start holiday break early, district says
johnna-rhone.jpg

Mugshot Johnna Rhone

Johnna Rhone, an art teacher at Jefferson Middle School in Saint Clair Shores, Michigan, was charged with making a false report or threat of terrorism at an arraignment on Monday, according to court records reportedly seen by ClickOnDetroit.

Macomb County Prosecutor Peter Lucido told NBC News that one of the notes said: "Start break early. He's gonna do it. Just don't be in the hall after lunch. Boom! Get it?"

detroit-teacher_01.jpg
Rhone’s bond has been set at $75,000, and she’s been ordered on house arrest pending a psychological evaluation.

Superintendent Karl Paulson released the following statement to families:

“I write this afternoon with important information regarding Jefferson Middle School. This morning, Jefferson administrators were provided multiple, inappropriate, hand-written notes, similar in nature, that were left at three different teacher work areas.

Administrators worked with law enforcement to quickly identify the alleged distributor of the notes through review of camera video footage. One of the notes appeared to be an attempt at making a false threat in the hope of closing school. Based on the facts, information and timeline, the team was confident everyone was safe, and there was no need for initiating any lockdown or other safety protocols.
 
  • #430
An art teacher in Michigan is accused of making a false threat so classes would be canceled and she could start holiday break early, district says
johnna-rhone.jpg

Mugshot Johnna Rhone

Johnna Rhone, an art teacher at Jefferson Middle School in Saint Clair Shores, Michigan, was charged with making a false report or threat of terrorism at an arraignment on Monday, according to court records reportedly seen by ClickOnDetroit.

Macomb County Prosecutor Peter Lucido told NBC News that one of the notes said: "Start break early. He's gonna do it. Just don't be in the hall after lunch. Boom! Get it?"

detroit-teacher_01.jpg
Rhone’s bond has been set at $75,000, and she’s been ordered on house arrest pending a psychological evaluation.

Superintendent Karl Paulson released the following statement to families:

“I write this afternoon with important information regarding Jefferson Middle School. This morning, Jefferson administrators were provided multiple, inappropriate, hand-written notes, similar in nature, that were left at three different teacher work areas.

Administrators worked with law enforcement to quickly identify the alleged distributor of the notes through review of camera video footage. One of the notes appeared to be an attempt at making a false threat in the hope of closing school. Based on the facts, information and timeline, the team was confident everyone was safe, and there was no need for initiating any lockdown or other safety protocols.
She won’t have to worry about going back after Xmas break or ever.
 
  • #431
Oxford school lawyer plans immunity defense in mass shooting; wants Fieger sanctioned

Mullins alleges that a former high school dean named in the lawsuit has received death threats, and that Mullins has repeatedly asked Fieger to remove the man's name from the lawsuit because he hasn't worked at the high school in over a year.

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Roses are left on a fence around the Oxford High School football field on December 7, 2021.


As of Tuesday afternoon, the man's name remained in the lawsuit.

"This man, whose name has been publicized now worldwide, whose picture has been put on TV, has absolutely nothing to do with this case," Mullins said in a phone interview with the Free Press. "Take the man's name down."

Fieger was not readily available for comment, though in court filings his law firm has argued that it did its due diligence in backgrounding the school official before adding his name to the lawsuit. Until the day after the shooting, Fieger's team has claimed, the man's LinkedIn page and the Oxford school website listed him as dean of students.

Fieger's firm also has stated that it has has offered to remove the man's name from the lawsuit, but only if the school lawyer provides the "proper name" of the dean of students on the day of the shooting.

That sounds like "extortion," says Mullins.

ME:
Just give the proper name already!
 
  • #432
They want to get him sentenced to LWOP so they need to charge him as an adult I think. As a juvenile there is too much chance he gets out someday.

They need to do everything they can to keep him away from society for his entire lifetime.

Even with him being charged as an adult they cannot sentence him to LWOP. The federal government found it was inhumane to charge anyone under 18 life w/o parole. And every individual that was sentenced that under 18 was given a relook and resentencing.
 
  • #433
Even with him being charged as an adult they cannot sentence him to LWOP. The federal government found it was inhumane to charge anyone under 18 life w/o parole. And every individual that was sentenced that under 18 was given a relook and resentencing.

IANAL, but my understanding is a juvenile can still be sentenced to LWOP. It CANNOT be mandatory. moo

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/18-1259_8njq.pdf

This Court subsequently decided Miller v. Alabama, 567 U. S. 460, which held that the Eighth Amendment permits a life-without-parole sentence for a defendant who committed a homicide when he or she was under 18, but only if the sentence is not mandatory and the sentencer therefore has discretion to impose a lesser punishment.

bbm
 
  • #434
Even with him being charged as an adult they cannot sentence him to LWOP. The federal government found it was inhumane to charge anyone under 18 life w/o parole. And every individual that was sentenced that under 18 was given a relook and resentencing.

That's Federal not State. Michigan and other States have juveniles in prison right now with LWOP.

Second Chances: Juveniles Serving Life Without Parole In Michigan Prisons

SCOTUS Holds LWOP for Juveniles Does Not Require Finding of Incorrigibility | Criminal Legal News.

The Supreme Court of the United States (“SCOTUS”) held on April 22, 2021, that a sentencing court may impose life without parole (“LWOP”) on a juvenile without making a finding of incorrigibility on the record, as long as the sentencing judge has discretion to impose a lower sentence.
 
  • #435
Oxford school lawyer plans immunity defense in mass shooting; wants Fieger sanctioned

Mullins alleges that a former high school dean named in the lawsuit has received death threats, and that Mullins has repeatedly asked Fieger to remove the man's name from the lawsuit because he hasn't worked at the high school in over a year.

4d630d8cdf01ca94242980c7067b5b34
Roses are left on a fence around the Oxford High School football field on December 7, 2021.


As of Tuesday afternoon, the man's name remained in the lawsuit.

"This man, whose name has been publicized now worldwide, whose picture has been put on TV, has absolutely nothing to do with this case," Mullins said in a phone interview with the Free Press. "Take the man's name down."

Fieger was not readily available for comment, though in court filings his law firm has argued that it did its due diligence in backgrounding the school official before adding his name to the lawsuit. Until the day after the shooting, Fieger's team has claimed, the man's LinkedIn page and the Oxford school website listed him as dean of students.

Fieger's firm also has stated that it has has offered to remove the man's name from the lawsuit, but only if the school lawyer provides the "proper name" of the dean of students on the day of the shooting.

That sounds like "extortion," says Mullins.

ME:
Just give the proper name already!

It's really fishy that they won't give the proper name. I mean, Fieger just has to serve discovery on the defendants, but still, it reallyseems like they are trying to hide something.
 
  • #436
Michigan athletics programs rally support, raise money for Oxford shooting victims, families (clickondetroit.com)

‘Oxford Strong’ shirts, sweatshirts for sale

OXFORD, Mich. – Athletics programs from across Michigan are coming together to pay tribute to the Oxford community and help victims of the high school shooting.

Brian Gordon, interim athletic director for Royal Oak Schools said athletic directors from across Oakland County met at Oxford High School the morning of the tragedy. He’s been thinking about ways to help ever since.

Gordon, with the help of the Oakland Activities Association, Kensington Lakes Activities Association and Detroit Catholic High School League organized and teamed up with E.A. Graphics to create, then sell Oxford Strong shirts and sweatshirts. 80% of each item will go to the victims of the Oxford High School shooting...

Metro Detroit athletic community launches 'Oxford Strong' fundraiser (detroitnews.com)


The Michigan High School Athletic Association is joining forces with three Metro Detroit conferences to raise money for the victims of the shooting at Oxford High School on Nov. 30.

The MHSAA announced Monday that shirts and sweatshirts will be sold, with the "Oxford Strong" moniker across the front, with all profits going to the Oxford victims...



 
  • #437
Nessel's office to meet with students, parents, educators after Oxford shooting (detroitnews.com)

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said her office has set up meetings with survivors, students, parents and educators following the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School, with the goal of developing best practices for school safety.

In addition, the Department of Attorney General plans to review Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald's criminal investigation to gather more information for the assessment, Nessel told reporters Monday.

"We’re going to be reviewing some of the practices that are currently in place, some of the recommended practices from the 2018 school safety commission, and trying to learn from this experience to find out how we can better protect students all around the state," Nessel told reporters Monday...
 
  • #438
Oxford High School to begin 'slow" reopen by end of January (detroitnews.com)

Oxford school officials are aiming to begin a "slow" reopening of the high school by the end of January, according to an update posted on the school district's website.

On Nov. 30, Oxford High School was the scene of the most deadly school shooting in the United States since 2018. Four students were killed inside the school and seven other people were injured after student Ethan Crumbley allegedly opened fire inside the building.

On Tuesday, the district posted an update saying a team of school employees and district staff has attempted to personally contact the families of 1,787 high school students in the last two weeks to "listen to them as we plan our slow and safe return to school."...
 
  • #439
It's really fishy that they won't give the proper name. I mean, Fieger just has to serve discovery on the defendants, but still, it reallyseems like they are trying to hide something.

This. But on the other hand, it also seems like a pissing match that doesn't need to be. How hard is it to determine the name of the acting/sitting dean of students at the time of the shooting and correct the error?

We know how easy it is to do, it is not at all uncommon for the wrong person or entity to be named in a complaint. Amending is a thing. We know how easy it is to remedy so why are they engaged in this silliness? Referring to both sides?
 
  • #440
How hard is it to determine the name of the acting/sitting dean of students at the time of the shooting and correct the error?

It's really fishy that they won't give the proper name. I mean, Fieger just has to serve discovery on the defendants, but still, it reallyseems like they are trying to hide something.

Reading between the lines in the article (and perhaps not reading very well), this seems to be the defense attorneys' are advancing the position that the school officials have legal immunity from the suit.

This, then could lead to a response of: We don't need to give you who the Dean of Students was because they are immune to your suit (unless a judge says otherwise).

In the end, I am hoping that the school officials are found to be immune- unless the personal injury guys can show they made decisions in bad faith.

The principal and staff at my children's school (roughest school in a district of ill repute) make decisions every year regarding which student are truly dangerous and need to get booted, which are salvageable with extra attention from scarce resources, and which pulled a one time stunt that was later exaggerated.

Their decisions involve students making threats and students possessing guns and knives at school. I would not want them second, third or fourth guessed by personal injury attorneys- unless they can prove to a very high level that the staff made decisions in bad faith.
 
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