NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #11 *Arrest*

[MassGuy]

None of us would have heard of this case had the victim have not been a CEO of a healthcare insurance company imo

Yup there's stuff in the north east, midlands and down in the south in London city centre (I could post pics but I'm not sure if it's allowed) and as you said, that's in a country with free access to healthcare! My answer as to why I believe it's over here like it is, is due to the circus I mentioned in my comments above. Had LE/NY officials not have turned this case into the freak show that it's become, held back the information that the public simply didn't need to know (the words on the casings/monopoly money/'letter to feds') and they hadn't have paraded this guy around like a show puppet, then the initial video of the shooting hype (which they also didn't need to release tbh, a still would have done to attempt to identify) would have eased off and I doubt it would have the reach that the current never seen before tidal wave has.

ETA - Ofc websleuths would be talking about the case, as here cases are covered no matter the victim, I meant the general pop ha

Thats just not true. It didn't matter who he was. We knew about this because it was a broad daylight assassination with a masked gunman in the middle of NYC by a guy using a silenced weapon. This simply doesn't happen, which is why I followed it.

 

[Jw192]

Thats just not true. It didn't matter who he was. We knew about this because it was a broad daylight assassination with a masked gunman in the middle of NYC by a guy using a silenced weapon. This simply doesn't happen, which is why I followed it.

Without meaning to be pedantic the shooting happened at approx 6:45am not broad daylight, sunrise beginning of December was around 7am I believe. Sorry I'm a detail hunter if there's definite details to be found -_-
Yah though I get why you would be super intrigued, as would a lot of us here, we follow every type of case despite the victim, but I meant the population as a whole. The whole furah wouldn't have been like this had LE not shared the full shooting clip which they didn't need to have, a still would have done like it has been in other cases, it would have been hyped for a while yah as it's not often we see a full shooting clip like that, but the fire was fueled by them releasing the shell casings words, the monopoly money and then the whole shebang that came after it which the general public did not need to be privvy to in order to identify the shooter... and I don't believe all that would have been shared had the victim have been a bin man going about his early morning rounds. Sure there would have been some coverage but nothing like this.

That's just my own opinion.

 

[MassGuy]

Without meaning to be pedantic the shooting happened at approx 6:45am not broad daylight, sunrise beginning of December was around 7am I believe. Sorry I'm a detail hunter if there's definite details to be found -_-
Yah though I get why you would be super intrigued, as would a lot of us here, we follow every type of case despite the victim, but I meant the population as a whole. The whole furah wouldn't have been like this had LE not shared the full shooting clip which they didn't need to have, a still would have done like it has been in other cases, it would have been hyped for a while yah as it's not often we see a full shooting clip like that, but the fire was fueled by them releasing the shell casings words, the monopoly money and then the whole shebang that came after it which the general public did not need to be privvy to in order to identify the shooter... and I don't believe all that would have been shared had the victim have been a bin man going about his early morning rounds. Sure there would have been some coverage but nothing like this.

That's just my own opinion.

All that infomation came from sources close the the investigation, not the NYPD. Luigi Mangione shot and killed Brian Thompson in a premideated act. It''s the quintessential example of first degree murder. I'd love for you or someone else to argue against that with me.

 

[Jw192]

All that infomation came from sources close the the investigation, not the NYPD. Luigi Mangione shot and killed Brian Thompson in a premideated act. It''s the quintessential example of first degree murder. I'd love for you or someone else to argue against that with me.

I wouldn't IF NY didn't have their kooky murder 1 brackets. In NY the crime committed is by its own states definition murder 2, same as all the other quintessential premeditated murders that have been tried and convicted at murder 2.

 

[LadyL]

Yes, I did notice that. When I said the entire courthouse hallway "perp walk" struck me as showboating, I was referring to the phalanx of LE and suits surrounding LM. IMO, that kind of show of force had nothing to do with him, but rather whatever audience they're trying to message. (I'm probably not be in their target demographic.)

After all, it's not like LM was going to spontaneously combust, produce a ghost gun from somewhere on his person, or otherwise erupt into murderous violence. JMO.

It was suggested that they were concerned about the general public that were threatening violence.

 

[Muddy K]

It was suggested that they were concerned about the general public that were threatening violence.

Yes, understood, @LadyL, but I was referring to the perp walk in the courtroom corridor. I don't really buy it, the idea that some Luigi fanboy or fangirl would try to bust him free, or the reverse, that some Jack Ruby wannabe might try to take him down. JMO.

In my city, no one enters the courthouse building, period, without passing through metal detectors. I have a hard time believing it could be different in NYC.

And why even film it in the first place?

 

[detective.moon]

Can anyone think of another case where "not condoning murder, but" was stated like social shorthand or some kind of mantra or get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not sure I can. Really curious to know.

cases where the killer was initially was abused by the person they eventually kill come to mind, like anthony templet. and as a non-american, it seems like many americans feel like their society has been abused by health insurances. and of course BT is not the one directly denying claims, but that seems like part of the problem - a system where a few people profit, a lot of people suffer, but somehow no one is responsible, and non-violent action hasn’t been getting the majority anywhere. BT ended up being a symbolic target.

this is just me trying to understand the support, as an outsider (i’ve only been to the US as a tourist, and loved it btw!) so i might be off!

 

[Zinn]

Can anyone think of another case where "not condoning murder, but" was stated like social shorthand or some kind of mantra or get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not sure I can. Really curious to know.

There’s usually a contingent that feels this way about excessive force cases. “They should have just complied” and so on.

Then there are cases of a parent murdering someone who assaulted their child or a victim murdering their serial abuser.

I would guess there were people who felt this way about the guy who murdered abortion provider George Tiller.

Certainly there were people on George Zimmerman’s side of things. Also Kyle Rittenhouse.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Will the jury let Luigi Mangione get away with murder?​

(...)

Make no mistake, jury nullification, like it or not, is as American as apple pie: Courts recognize that jurors surely have the power to nullify, even if not the right.

(...)

While jurors don’t have an express right to nullify, once seated, they do, as a practical matter, have the power. The presiding judge may remove a juror if he determines that “nullifying,” rather than weighing evidence and following law, is the juror’s goal. The judge might even declare a mistrial if the juror had already begun trying to evangelize fellow jurors. At the same time, defense attorneys are not permitted to outright encourage jurors to nullify. 

A juror nullifying in a case like Mangione — i.e., “I’m not voting to convict period, no matter what they produce as evidence” — would be a dereliction of duty. The tangible facts already in the public record should make that clear.

(...)

And prosecutors here are not without fault in providing would-be nullifiers with grist for the mill. They share some responsibility for the spike in public sentiment for Mangione by charging terrorism and raising the offense level to Murder 1 in one jurisdiction, threatening a possible death penalty in another jurisdiction, and participating in a food fight over who takes him to trial first. The piling on, the escorts with body armor and rifles, the perp walking and the overcharging intensify his folk-hero standing and add fuel to a potential nullification fire that is already burning bright.

(...)

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/5056942-mangione-murder-trial-nullifier/

 

[girlhasnoname]

Whoa. Story line? No disrespect but that, IMO, is a tad harsh.
She’s a well respected, qualified attorney who will do the best to defend her client.
This is real life.
Not Law and Order.
MOO

Whoa, you might want to go back and read my post and the link attached. I said LM (or his parents) were fortunate to be able to afford KFA as she has a long standing reputation in the Manhattan DA office and is heavily experienced on both sides of the law - Prosecution and Defense. She is also a legal advisor to the show Law and Order.

KFA gave an opinion before being hired to represent LM and said an insanity defense would make sense based on the amount of evidence against him. <Also linked in that article>. Now with her officially representing LM, it will be interesting to see how she goes about his Defense around the evidence. Yes, it is her job to defend her client as vigorously and competently as possible as is his 6th Amendment Right.

I have been discussing how serious of an issue this murder is from the beginning of this case having worked in the HealthCare Industry for many years on the OPS side and I find your statement "This is real life, Not Law and Order" more than a tad harsh, and uncalled for.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Can we please use the initials KA instead of FA?

It gets too confusing if we switch from first/last initial. Thanks

She goes by KFA by choice. I have no problem with using that acronym. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It's been reported that the "it's something I could see him doing" was in reference to staying in hostels... That's if she even said anything of the sort.

This is what is being reportedly said by LM's Mother in MSM:

<snipped & BBM>
When detectives reached out to accused CEO killer Luigi Mangione’s mother after the first photos of the suspect emerged, she said she wasn’t certain it was him – but told investigators the shooting “might be something that she could see him doing,” a New York Police Department official said Tuesday.

MSN

 

[Marantz4250b]

Understanding Jury Nullification: Definition, Examples, And Implications​

‐-----------------​

The Camden 28 Case​

"Even though there was no doubt that the 28 people involved did break into the draft board and thereby broke the law, the jury returned 28 “not guilty” verdicts and the case stands as an example of a jury standing up to a prosecution that they felt was unjust."
‐---------------------
"It is unlikely that the legal community (or society as a whole) will come to a consensus about jury nullification anytime soon. Until then, jurors will need to reach their own ethical decision about whether jury nullification is appropriate, both in a general sense and in regard to the case that they are empaneled to hear."

Understanding Jury Nullification: Definition, Examples, And Implications

Jury nullification occurs when a jury returns a not guilty verdict in a criminal case where the jury believes that the defendant has, beyond a reasonable doubt, committed a crime. In other words, the jury believes that the defendant has broken the law, but still decides not to convict. On its fac

www.forbes.com

That's an interesting article (it's been posted before) but the cases it mentions are in no way similar to what we have here.

If what we mean by "jury nullification" is the intentional returning of a verdict of not guilty by a jury because they are making a policy statement either on the particular law or the defendant then the two cases mentioned in the article aren't comparable at all and not really cases of true "nullification".

It seems that the requirements here are:

• The law is clear and specific; both in its scope and potential penalty. No room for ambiguity.
• The evidence is overwhelming to any reasonable person that the defendant did what he was accused of.
• The jury appears to have, in the assessment of any reasonable person, chosen to acquit the person in order to make a statement as to the law, the defendant or public policy in general.

The cases in the article (certainly the first) don't meet those criteria.

The Kevorkian case was prosecuted as being "contrary to common law" - ie; there is no statute offence of assisting a suicide. It also appears that assisting a suicide had never even been prosecuted before so there was no common law precedent on which to base a prosecution.

Therefore, this cannot be a case of jury nullification. It fails at the first hurdle because it simply isn't illegal if you cannot provide a legal basis for it. If there is no law for the jury to rail against then there is nothing for them to nullify.

The second case, that of the Camden 28, isn't quite co clear cut but I don't think it's true jury nullification. From the description, yes, breaking into the draft office was clearly an offence. However....the article mentions that the FBI were there as they were tipped off by an infiltrator. Not only were the FBI there but they waited for some time allowing the burglars enough time to destroy thousands of documents.

Now, yes, maybe they should have been convicted of burglary but it is evident that the FBI could have stopped them right at the outset and perhaps the jury felt that they were allowed to run riot in order to impose longer sentences or bring stiffer charges.

That also has to be looked at given the background at the time; the Vietnam war was going the wrong way and it was most likely looking that it was going to be lost, which it was. That being the case, why allow even more young men be sent off to die for a pointless endeavour?

Neither of these cases are remotely comparable to the LM case. Shooting someone in the back for purely political or economic reasons is completely different to either of those cases, one of which almost certainly a crime to begin with.

Are there actually any true instances of Jury Nullification out there in the American system because I really can't see any. It seems to me that although Jury Nullification is theoretically possible, it's probably a myth that it actually happens.

I don't think it's going to happen here.

 

[Marantz4250b]

This! I too think that some people aren't seeing what a weird wave this has made and how it it turning tidal as the days go along. I live in the north of England and travel to the south and I've seen dozens of flags and graffiti art (on buildings!) relating to this! Sure it's not those people who will be on the jury, but it's spread so far and wide and it's nothing that's ever been seen before... Probably the reason they're calling it terrorism tbh, can't be having anybody start to question the money machines -_-
But yah, anybody who says that a huge percentage of the entire plugged in population aren't looking at LM like he's some righteous martyr have their heads in the ground.

Respectfully MOO

Really? I'm in the North East and haven't seen anything in public relating to this. I have no idea why anyone would do so as it's completely irrelevant to us here.

 

[Marantz4250b]

If this were a “bog standard” murder, none of us would have heard of this case.
Not even here in NYC.

It’s because it’s so idiosyncratic that it’s gained so much attention.

You’ve mentioned earlier that you’re in the North of England and that you’ve gone to the south and seen graffiti etc. praising Luigi.

I believe you 100%, as you are there and I am not. I’m curious though as to why LM would be heroic to a population with socialized medicine?

Just due to the notion of little guy vs. the giant corporations? Otherwise I can’t grasp why those in England would consider this one of the causes to support, when it’s a non-issue to people with cradle-to-grave coverage (other than the wait times).

JMO and curiosity.

I'd like to know where all this stuff is because I've seen none of it. Having said that, I haven't been too far over the past few weeks what with work and Crimbo and all.

Possibly a few far-left student types might do it as they seem to have little else to do but I've never heard of it "widespread". As you point out, it's largely irrelevant to us as we aren't under the cosh of massive health insurance companies.

 

[GRT]

81-year-old calls accused killer Luigi Mangione a 'modern-day Robin Hood'​

Welcome to 10 Tampa Bay on YouTube! We’re the CBS affiliate serving the Tampa Bay area.

Vid snipped...

Earlier, I posted a poll showing (among the 20/30-somethings) more condoned the killing than condemned it. It was surprising.

I think those who support Luigi mostly support the position that the health insurance industry is corrupt and broken. I don't think they support killing on a personal level. MOO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yes, understood, @LadyL, but I was referring to the perp walk in the courtroom corridor. I don't really buy it, the idea that some Luigi fanboy or fangirl would try to bust him free, or the reverse, that some Jack Ruby wannabe might try to take him down. JMO.

In my city, no one enters the courthouse building, period, without passing through metal detectors. I have a hard time believing it could be different in NYC.

And why even film it in the first place?

I’d be worried if a decision was made to keep LM off media, and everything behind closed doors.
There is every chance his legal team wanted him public.

The criminal courts are public, last time I checked.

 

[citygirl]

Whoa, you might want to go back and read my post and the link attached. I said LM (or his parents) were fortunate to be able to afford KFA as she has a long standing reputation in the Manhattan DA office and is heavily experienced on both sides of the law - Prosecution and Defense. She is also a legal advisor to the show Law and Order.

KFA gave an opinion before being hired to represent LM and said an insanity defense would make sense based on the amount of evidence against him. <Also linked in that article>. Now with her officially representing LM, it will be interesting to see how she goes about his Defense around the evidence. Yes, it is her job to defend her client as vigorously and competently as possible as is his 6th Amendment Right.

I have been discussing how serious of an issue this murder is from the beginning of this case having worked in the HealthCare Industry for many years on the OPS side and I find your statement "This is real life, Not Law and Order" more than a tad harsh, and uncalled for.

MOO

Apologies.

 

[NuttMegg]

 

[BrianJohnson]

How are juries chosen in the USA? does there have to be 6 white and 6 coloured people, 4 old 4 middle aged 4 young 6 men and 6 women etc or is it a random thing and can be any mix