NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #11 *Arrest*

[citygirl]

Will the jury let Luigi Mangione get away with murder?​

(...)

Make no mistake, jury nullification, like it or not, is as American as apple pie: Courts recognize that jurors surely have the power to nullify, even if not the right.

(...)

While jurors don’t have an express right to nullify, once seated, they do, as a practical matter, have the power. The presiding judge may remove a juror if he determines that “nullifying,” rather than weighing evidence and following law, is the juror’s goal. The judge might even declare a mistrial if the juror had already begun trying to evangelize fellow jurors. At the same time, defense attorneys are not permitted to outright encourage jurors to nullify. 

A juror nullifying in a case like Mangione — i.e., “I’m not voting to convict period, no matter what they produce as evidence” — would be a dereliction of duty. The tangible facts already in the public record should make that clear.

(...)

And prosecutors here are not without fault in providing would-be nullifiers with grist for the mill. They share some responsibility for the spike in public sentiment for Mangione by charging terrorism and raising the offense level to Murder 1 in one jurisdiction, threatening a possible death penalty in another jurisdiction, and participating in a food fight over who takes him to trial first. The piling on, the escorts with body armor and rifles, the perp walking and the overcharging intensify his folk-hero standing and add fuel to a potential nullification fire that is already burning bright.

(...)

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/5056942-mangione-murder-trial-nullifier/

Fabulous post. MOO.

 

[Arkay]

Are there actually any true instances of Jury Nullification out there in the American system because I really can't see any. It seems to me that although Jury Nullification is theoretically possible, it's probably a myth that it actually happens.

I may well be mistaken, as it was so long ago, but IIRC I would say the O.J. Simpson verdict was jury nullification.
I seem to recall that even Robert Kardashian as his lawyer was surprised he was found NG.
At the time, if I remember, it appeared that the jury skipped over the evidence due to the beloved celebrity factor, the good guy image he’d always enjoyed, and then the racial component was a factor despite it all.

JMO and some fading memory.

 

[citygirl]

I may well be mistaken, as it was so long ago, but IIRC I would say the O.J. Simpson verdict was jury nullification.
I seem to recall that even Robert Kardashian as his lawyer was surprised he was found NG.
At the time, if I remember, it appeared that the jury skipped over the evidence due to the beloved celebrity factor, the good guy image he’d always enjoyed, and then the racial component was a factor despite it all.

JMO and some fading memory.

Paraphrasing. A juror said. You want a domestic violence case? Take it down the hall to that courtroom.
MOO.

 

[citygirl]

Apologies.

I guess what struck me was, who knows what story line she could come up with?
JMO

 

[Arkay]

In my experience and IMO, the "not condoning murder, but..." paradigm around this case seems unique. I mean, I hear it a lot. And I see it as a slippery slope, because what if what is really being suggested by those words - their subtext, if you will - is that there might be a rationale for this particular murder, or reasonable justification, or the ends justify the means?

That's where tolerance of the unthinkable begins to begin.

I so agree.

I hear this frequently here as well. “I don’t condone murder, of course, BUT Luigi is a hero.”

Clearly, if someone views LM as a hero then they do in fact condone murder, because murder was what he did and why he is now so notorious.

A slippery slope indeed.

How many people now, with true grievances about any corporation, will emerge from the shadows to take aim at whomever they believe is the source of their woes?

What will America become if self-proclaimed vigilantes feel encouraged by this case, not only that the object of hatred was slaughtered but that his killer is the subject of adoration?

I remember when the term “going postal” was coined because a disgruntled postal employee shot some co-workers, maybe in the 80s? Then it mushroomed into more post office violence, then ‘til now more disgruntled employees who wreak vengeance by violence.

America will return to the days of the Wild West. Kill whom you want with no law able to stop you.

My heart breaks into shards listening to James Taylor and how he suffers, and I know he’s emblematic of millions.

IMO the old saying, “there oughta be a law,” is what is necessary, right now. Congress must deal with the health insurance industry, but that should have been done prior to this murder. Even if/when lawmakers handle this, the theme will still be that Luigi was the catalyst for change.

Thus violence will be the raison d’être for a subset of people.

All my opinion.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Some morning thoughts

IMO - Terrorism:
Ransomware gangs don’t just encrypt files; they also steal as much data as possible and threaten to publish the files if a ransom isn’t paid. This is known as “double extortion.” In some cases when the victim pays, the ransomware gang can extort the victim again — or, in others, extort the victim’s customers, known as “triple extortion.”

To expand
Prior to LM being identified:
-journalist back pack
-shock factor with murder
-bullets
-Monopoly money
————————————
LM Arrested and Identified:

Twitter account with Pokémon (a game, an x-ray, and our perp displaying himself as king of some mountain)
We learn more about his background: Top Education, Game Programmer, Dreamed of Making Games

It didn’t slip by in early discussions that the backpack was one typical of a journalist. It also didn’t slip by that UHC and the Wall Street Journal were going back and forth on some hot buttons including HIV treatments.

If someone has been diagnosed with a disease such as HIV, and someone threatens to extort or blackmail them to prevent it being released would you consider that Terrorism?
I would
If you set the HIV example to the side and just think in general regarding how healthcare info could be used against people that is scary to the many impacted by this.

LM…….”some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, a lot of patience.”

Excerpt:
Social engineering manipulates human psychology, unlike traditional hacking methods that exploit technical vulnerabilities. “Even the most well-funded defenses, where investments in leading cyber technology have been built over years, can fail or be bypassed if an employee is fooled into giving access to a cyber thief,” says Jim Guinn, II, EY Americas Cybersecurity Leader. “And it can happen quickly—in just a matter of minutes.”

In close:
I would not want to be in AW’s place. I hope he works closely with the authorities to share all he knows. It appears he has had to navigate challenging waters in the past.

Witty has had decades navigating unusual crises—hacks, sprawling frauds, even an incriminating sex tape of a top lieutenant—in a storied career.

Even for an Executive Used to Crises, Andrew Witty Is Being Tested at UnitedHealth

Andrew Witty is seeking to calm anxious employees and keep the company growing while facing public outrage over health-insurer practices.

www.wsj.com

 

[Angelcat13]

Short of insanity, what can his attorney possibly argue in his defense?

Like him or hate him, virtually everyone accepts that he did it.

What does an attorney do with a case like that?

Dress alike?

When LM was arrested and information started coming out about him, I felt like there was something “complex” about him - sort of like he was able to portray a “normal” side on the surface but that there was a lot of complex turmoil underneath - sort of like calm surface water masking treacherous undercurrents.

Pre-COVID he seemed to have a “normal” and promising life - seemingly good family, wealth, opportunities, intelligent, attractive, well-liked, good group of friends, etc. Then COVID hit at just the time when he should have been looking forward to graduating college and beginning what seemed to have all the makings of a promising future. I have two kids that were slightly younger than LM when COVID hit - one was a senior in HS and one was a sophomore. I don’t know if we will every truly understand the impact of the COVID-era on the generations that lived through it - the sudden change from everything “normal” to fear, isolation, uncertainty, death, etc. Why did some people seem to mentally survive seemingly OK while others seem to have been deeply and tragically affected psychologically?
(Side note - I was at the vet with my dog a few weeks ago and another pet owner was there with their dog and I overheard him apologize to the vet tech for their dog being kind of skittish/reserved and they said they got the dog as a puppy right before COVID and that the puppy grew up during the profound isolation of the COVID-era and didn’t get the chance to socialize with other dogs, people, etc. I had never thought about this so I did a little online search and found that our pets - especially dogs - may have also been affected more than we ever realized.)

It seems that around this time LM started playing (or increased his playing of) some online games. I have to wonder if this (or how much this) may have affected LM. I am NOT excusing what he did, but I have to wonder if the traditional criteria of “not guilty by reason of insanity” is going to be challenged post-COVID when it comes to defending someone like LM. Could a defense attorney argue that although their client is not “legally insane” the COVID-era, isolation, gaming, etc (especially with someone young whose psyche is still forming”) caused enough of a “blurring” between reality and the “gaming-type world” that they are not responsible or that they have a “diminished capacity”?

It is interesting you see LM’s game choices - an “assassin” game and a “world-building and strategy game where players can build empires and cultures” game. I’m NOT saying these games cause someone to have social problems and/or commit violence. My son’s best friend went to a private HS that has a fundraiser every year for the seniors where they pay $10 to participate in a live (not computer gaming) version of assassin. They have a great time and, to my knowledge, no one has gone on to really become an assassin. (I am a bit surprised the school allows/promotes this in today’s world, but it’s actually kind of nice that they do.)

UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson’s suspected killer Luigi Mangione played assassin video game with friends

A University of Pennsylvania student from the same Discord gaming group as Luigi Mangione said they would play “Among Us,” a game where some players have to secretly kill others without…

nypost.com

Luigi Mangione job resume reveals video game work on "Civilization VI"

Luigi Mangione's resume and LinkedIn show that he had two Ivy League degrees, and worked on the popular computer game Civ VI.

www.newsweek.com

 

[imstilla.grandma]

In the survey from NORC at the University of Chicago, about 8 in 10 U.S. adults said the person who committed the killing has “a great deal” or “a moderate amount” of responsibility for the Dec. 4 shooting of Brian Thompson.

Despite that, some have cast Luigi Mangione, the 26-year-old suspect charged with Thompson’s murder, as a heroic figure in the aftermath of his arrest, which gave rise to an outpouring of grievances about insurance companies. Police say the words “delay,” “deny” and “depose” were scrawled on the ammunition investigators found at the scene, echoing a phrase commonly used to describe insurer tactics to avoid paying claims.

Most Americans blame insurance profits and denials alongside the killer in CEO death, poll finds

Most Americans believe health insurance profits and coverage denials share responsibility for the killing of UnitedHealthcare’s CEO — although not as much as the person who pulled the trigger.

www.nbcnewyork.com

<modsnip>

 

[GRT]

In the survey from NORC at the University of Chicago, about 8 in 10 U.S. adults said the person who committed the killing has “a great deal” or “a moderate amount” of responsibility for the Dec. 4 shooting of Brian Thompson.

Despite that, some have cast Luigi Mangione, the 26-year-old suspect charged with Thompson’s murder, as a heroic figure in the aftermath of his arrest, which gave rise to an outpouring of grievances about insurance companies. Police say the words “delay,” “deny” and “depose” were scrawled on the ammunition investigators found at the scene, echoing a phrase commonly used to describe insurer tactics to avoid paying claims.

Most Americans blame insurance profits and denials alongside the killer in CEO death, poll finds

Most Americans believe health insurance profits and coverage denials share responsibility for the killing of UnitedHealthcare’s CEO — although not as much as the person who pulled the trigger.

www.nbcnewyork.com

<modsnip>

Isn't that interesting?

Those polled acknowledged that LM was at least "moderately" responsible for shooting BT, but they still consider him a hero of sorts.

I've seen several sites selling Delay, Deny, Depose merch. I think mostly the merch appeals to the young adult group, but those are our future leaders.

 

[Arkay]

I've seen several sites selling Delay, Deny, Depose merch. I think mostly the merch appeals to the young adult group, but those are our future leaders.

Or our future criminals.

IMO

 

[GRT]

What is it that resonates most deeply with LM supporters?

I'm taking another look at his notes/manifesto--this time with a more critical eye.
A couple things stand out. He makes the following comment:
"A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy."

I did a little checking, and it appears he's close on life expectancy. According to the CIA World Factbook, our life expectancy is actually in 49th place. A little worse than he stated.

Then he makes this comment:
"But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain."

Is anyone aware of the writings of Rosenthal or Moore that he's referencing?

 

[GRT]

Or our future criminals.

IMO

Future leaders and future criminals--who says they can't multitask?!

 

[Friday Fan]

I may well be mistaken, as it was so long ago, but IIRC I would say the O.J. Simpson verdict was jury nullification.
I seem to recall that even Robert Kardashian as his lawyer was surprised he was found NG.
At the time, if I remember, it appeared that the jury skipped over the evidence due to the beloved celebrity factor, the good guy image he’d always enjoyed, and then the racial component was a factor despite it all.

JMO and some fading memory.

It have heard that it was revenge for the cops who were found not guilty in the beating of Rodney King. If I keep that in mind, it least it helps me understand the NG verdict in the "trial of the century".
If the MSM had mentioned Rodney King with regards to OJ during the trial, maybe the OJ verdict would not have been such a shock.

 

[Friday Fan]

What is it that resonates most deeply with LM supporters?

I'm taking another look at his notes/manifesto--this time with a more critical eye.
A couple things stand out. He makes the following comment:
"A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy."

I did a little checking, and it appears he's close on life expectancy. According to the CIA World Factbook, our life expectancy is actually in 49th place. A little worse than he stated.

Then he makes this comment:
"But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain."

Is anyone aware of the writings of Rosenthal or Moore that he's referencing?

Moore is Michael Moore. He's known for his documentaries etc. Michael Moore - Wikipedia

I had to search "Moore" also. I thought he was referring to an economist or something. He's not talking about Michael makes the movies? Is he? Sure enough he was.

 

[BrianJohnson]

It have heard that it was revenge for the cops who were found not guilty in the beating of Rodney King. If I keep that in mind, it least it helps me understand the NG verdict in the "trial of the century".
If the MSM had mentioned Rodney King with regards to OJ during the trial, maybe the OJ verdict would not have been such a shock.

I believe OJ was responsible but there was elements of doubt such as the glove, in this case there is no elements of doubt, LM even wrote a manifesto admitting it and using weasel words to the Thompson family to ‘apologise’, he 100% did it whereas OJ was probably 90%

 

[NuttMegg]

Isn't that interesting?

Those polled acknowledged that LM was at least "moderately" responsible for shooting BT, but they still consider him a hero of sorts.

I've seen several sites selling Delay, Deny, Depose merch. I think mostly the merch appeals to the young adult group, but those are our future leaders.

Moderate amount. not saying much. What's the next category. "Not much at all"? I don't see anything wrong with the motto delay deny depose. Those are verbs brought to us by the middlemen "health care" providers. Just words that describe what is important to their bottom line. I just don't like clothes with any labels or mottos on them so I won't be wearing those words.

 

[NuttMegg]

Moore is Michael Moore. He's known for his documentaries etc. Michael Moore - Wikipedia

I had to search "Moore" also. I thought he was referring to an economist or something. He's not talking about Michael makes the movies? Is he? Sure enough he was.

"Sicko". Not you Friday Fan, that's his main (shocking) movie related to health care.

 

[GRT]

Moderate amount. not saying much. What's the next category. "Not much at all"? I don't see anything wrong with the motto delay deny depose. Those are verbs brought to us by the middlemen "health care" providers. Just words that describe what is important to their bottom line. I just don't like clothes with any labels or mottos on them so I won't be wearing those words.

I hear you! I don't wear clothing with words or put bumper stickers on my car!

But, I think the three Ds mean something else.

This is MOO, but here goes:

The original three words appear in a book titled, "Delay, Deny, Defend: Why Insurance Companies Don't Pay Claims and What You Can do About It."

LM changed the words to Delay, Deny, and Depose. The first two are the same, and the third follows alliteration, but I think it's a threat. "Depose" in LM's usage (again, MOO) indicates that those who delay and deny claims unfairly (the CEOs of Insurance Companies) will be deposed (removed from power) by violence. At least that's how I took it -- I took it as a direct threat to the companies and their top dogs.

I could be wrong, but I think that's why it resonates with the young, impressionable segment of society. All MOO

 

[justpeachy22]

I so agree.

I hear this frequently here as well. “I don’t condone murder, of course, BUT Luigi is a hero.”

Clearly, if someone views LM as a hero then they do in fact condone murder, because murder was what he did and why he is now so notorious.

A slippery slope indeed.

How many people now, with true grievances about any corporation, will emerge from the shadows to take aim at whomever they believe is the source of their woes?

What will America become if self-proclaimed vigilantes feel encouraged by this case, not only that the object of hatred was slaughtered but that his killer is the subject of adoration?

I remember when the term “going postal” was coined because a disgruntled postal employee shot some co-workers, maybe in the 80s? Then it mushroomed into more post office violence, then ‘til now more disgruntled employees who wreak vengeance by violence.

America will return to the days of the Wild West. Kill whom you want with no law able to stop you.

My heart breaks into shards listening to James Taylor and how he suffers, and I know he’s emblematic of millions.

IMO the old saying, “there oughta be a law,” is what is necessary, right now. Congress must deal with the health insurance industry, but that should have been done prior to this murder. Even if/when lawmakers handle this, the theme will still be that Luigi was the catalyst for change.

Thus violence will be the raison d’être for a subset of people.

All my opinion.

I think it’s safe to assume LM will go to prison for a long while, regardless of any large following he may have. I doubt our country will turn in to the “Wild West” of murderers “whacking” people without consequences. We are already overfilling our prisons for far less than murder. The “uprising” from LM followers will give him a good chance at parole, imo I don’t believe he will spend life in prison. Privilege being one reason. (Im not versed in legalities around parole.)

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I think it’s safe to assume LM will go to prison for a long while, regardless of any large following he may have. I doubt our country will turn in to the “Wild West” of murderers “whacking” people without consequences. We are already overfilling our prisons for far less than murder. The “uprising” from LM followers will give him a good chance at parole, imo I don’t believe he will spend life in prison. Privilege being one reason. (Im not versed in legalities around parole.)

Was pondering LM’s possible rehabilitation programme …