NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Cryptic]

worth reading the laws of NY regarding physical and lethal force!

Article 35 NY Penal Law - Defense of Justification | NY Laws

Justifiable use of physical force, conduct which would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal when

ypdcrime.com

My guess is the matter will rest on what the grand jury defines as "reasonably believes"

he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force

In the end, I dont think New Yorkers are willing to stretch "reasonably believes" to using lethal force against annoying homeless people who are A, unarmed and B. did not actually attack anybody.

I had a homeless, long term crack addict (judging by facial expression and body movements), approach me while placing luggage hotel in Compton, CA. She then started screaming profanities- some creative, most not. Trying to ignore her, I went back to the hotel lobby. She followed me into the lobby where my three young children were- still screaming profanities.

I have a feeling that if I strangled her to death based on the premise that she might have intended to harm one of my children, the jury was not going to buy it as being truly needed. Hotel staff later told me that she was a "regular" in the area and had never attacked anybody.

 

[kittythehare]

My guess is the matter will rest on what the grand jury defines as "reasonably believes"

he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force

In the end, I dont think New Yorkers are willing to stretch "reasonably believes" to using lethal force against annoying homeless people who are A, unarmed and B. did not actually attack anybody.

I had a homeless, long term crack addict (judging by facial expression and body movements), approach me while placing luggage hotel in Compton, CA. She then started screaming profanities- some creative, most not. Trying to ignore her, I went back to the hotel lobby. She followed me into the lobby where my three young children were- still screaming profanities.

I have a feeling that if I strangled her to death based on the premise that she might have intended to harm one of my children, the jury was not going to buy it as being truly needed. Hotel staff later told me that she was a "regular" in the area and had never attacked anybody.

and if you were a former marine trained in de-escalation and safe choke techniques and had other options, it should go against you too.

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

Co. C recruits learn responsible use of force

In their fourth week of training, recruits of Company C, 1st Recruit Training Battalion, learned chokes and counter techniques during a Marine Corps Martial Arts Program session aboard Marine Corps

www.marines.mil

Mr. Penny held Mr. Neely down. The restrained man thrashed and kicked for at least two minutes before becoming limp. Two men hovered over the action, helping to pin down Mr. Neely.
“You don’t have to catch a murder charge,” another passenger can be heard saying on the video. “You got a hell of a chokehold, man.”

It is unknown whether Mr. Penny was attempting the blood choke he had learned a few years earlier. The moment when Mr. Neely should have lost consciousness — after eight seconds or so — had long passed.
One witness, Johnny Grima, said he entered the subway car while Mr. Penny was still choking Mr. Neely but after Mr. Neely had stopped moving. “When they let him go, Jordan’s eyes were open, staring out into space and he was limp,” said Mr. Grima, 38, a formerly homeless man who lives in the Bronx and did not know Mr. Neely.

How Two Men’s Disparate Paths Crossed in a Killing on the F Train (Published 2023)

Jordan Neely’s mental health decline played out in public after his mother was strangled. Daniel Penny said he was protecting himself and others when he choked Mr. Neely.

www.nytimes.com

Finally a quote from the nauseating NYT article from the 'former marine'

“During the travels I rediscovered my love for interacting and connecting with people,” he wrote. “Being able to serve and connect with the most interesting and eccentric the world has to offer, is what I believe I am meant to do.”

Quite.

 

[kittythehare]

This breaks my heart.
People had shown him kindness, particularly this judge.

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, the police said. The woman suffered severe facial injuries, including a broken nose, according to court documents. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison.
“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.
“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.
“What is that goal?”
“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”

It's the oldest story in the world about addiction and mental illness.

How Two Men’s Disparate Paths Crossed in a Killing on the F Train (Published 2023)

Jordan Neely’s mental health decline played out in public after his mother was strangled. Daniel Penny said he was protecting himself and others when he choked Mr. Neely.

www.nytimes.com

 

[lonetraveler]

New York Gov. Kathy Hochul said Neely’s family “deserves justice.”

“I do want to acknowledge how horrific it was to view a video of Jordan Neely being killed for being a passenger on the subway trains,” Hochul said Thursday during a news conference. “There had to be consequences, and so we’ll see how this unfolds. But his family deserves justice.”

The governor added that Neely was held down “until the last breath was snuffed out of him,” describing the passengers’ response as “very extreme.”

Jumaane Williams, New York City’s public advocate, echoed the governor’s calls for justice, demanding that charges be filed “immediately” against the killer. The public advocate office helps with complaints involving government-related services and regulations.

“To say anything else is an equivocation that will only further a narrative that devalues the life of a Black, homeless man with mental health challenges and encourages an attitude of dehumanization of New Yorkers in greatest need,” he said.

Jordan Neely, the man killed in chokehold on NYC subway, is remembered as an entertainer shattered by his mother's murder | CNN

Before Jordan Neely was killed on a New York City subway car this week, he was known for his swift Michael Jackson dance moves that entertained many — yet he struggled with the trauma his mother's murder had left him with at an early age.

www.cnn.com

Reads like they are trying to make it a race issue.

 

[lonetraveler]

Yeah it's a sad situation and the city/state needs to step up. It was too late for Jordan unfortunately. And the man who killed him is white. The journalist who filmed Neely's murder said that it didn't appear he wanted to attack anyone.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-new-york-city-subway-chokehold-d

Why does this have to be a race issue??

 

[Stunned]

Why does this have to be a race issue??

People want it to be? Who knows?

 

[kittythehare]

Neely grew up in a family of musicians who want him to be remembered as a "human being," Edwards told USA TODAY. His mother was a professional singer and his father performed with a music group. Neely also had a flair for song and dance, which he would pursue into adulthood.

Who was Jordan Neely, the New York subway victim? A 'young man in real crisis,' advocates say

Jordan Neely, a beloved subway performer, grew up in a family of musicians who want him to be remembered as a "human being," a family lawyer said.

eu.usatoday.com

 

[IceIce9]

In any city or small town in the world it would be common practice to call for assistance if a person is telling one and all they they have over dosed.
This is not hard and has nothing to do with policing.
Police are not trained paramedics.
An ambulance brings trained medics.

<modsnip>

He wasn’t exhibiting signs of a Xanax overdose. It was a mental issue.
In this particular city there are so many people walking around with mental and drug issues that you won’t get a response if you call 911 to report someone with irrational behavior.

Besides the person I mentioned, I had walked by two other homeless men who were approaching pedestrians, all within a short 3 block walk.

The last time I called 911 (for a car crash I witnessed) I was on hold for 45 minutes before the call was picked up.

There are so many aggressive homeless people walking around in the city that people are staying away from restaurants downtown in favor of restaurants in the suburbs where they won’t be hassled by panhandlers or aggressive homeless. Several restaurants have closed downtown or relocated to suburbs.

I don’t know what the answer is. I just know the frustration that people experience when they aren’t able to ride public transportation or walk to a restaurant or event downtown without being harassed.

 

[Cryptic]

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, the police said. The woman suffered severe facial injuries, including a broken nose, according to court documents. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

Society cannot afford to give vigilantes free reign. Nor, can it afford to give people who break a 67 year old woman's nose less than 15 months in jail.

 

[Cryptic]

Yes, my thought was…give him your water bottle, your snack, your seat, talk with him. Let him know you care

Perhaps his 67 year old victim had similar thoughts- just before Neely broke her nose and gave her other facial injuries?

Though Penny would not have known about Neely attacking the woman, Neely might not have been inclined to listen to soothing words, nor to accept a snack or a seat.

 

[kittythehare]

Society cannot afford to give vigilantes free reign. Nor, can it afford to give people who break a 67 year old woman's nose less than 15 months in jail.

he was in jail awaiting trial, clearly it had done him good because the judge tried to help him and he pled guilty.

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023

I've read all of these posts & it's interesting to see everyone's perspective regarding the homeless/mentally ill, etc. that those of us who live in large (and even smaller) metropolitan areas see every day. The homeless have unfortunately become a part of everyday urban life, and the issue has...

www.websleuths.com

 

[kittythehare]

Perhaps his 67 year old victim had similar thoughts- just before Neely broke her nose and gave her other facial injuries?

Though Penny would not have known about Neely attacking the woman, Neely might not have been inclined to listen to soothing words, accept a snack or a seat.

he was not extrajudicially executed because he broke a woman's nose in 2021 while in the throes of mental illness.
Jordan Neely is the victim in this case.

 

[tara83]

he was not extrajudicially executed because he broke a woman's nose in 2021 while in the throes of mental illness.
Jordan Neely is the victim in this case.

Of course.But assaulting that woman was horrific and the sentence didn't fit such a brutal crime.

 

[Stunned]

He wasn’t exhibiting signs of a Xanax overdose. It was a mental issue.
In this particular city there are so many people walking around with mental and drug issues that you won’t get a response if you call 911 to report someone with irrational behavior.

Besides the person I mentioned, I had walked by two other homeless men who were approaching pedestrians, all within a short 3 block walk.

The last time I called 911 (for a car crash I witnessed) I was on hold for 45 minutes before the call was picked up.

There are so many aggressive homeless people walking around in the city that people are staying away from restaurants downtown in favor of restaurants in the suburbs where they won’t be hassled by panhandlers or aggressive homeless. Several restaurants have closed downtown or relocated to suburbs.

I don’t know what the answer is. I just know the frustration that people experience when they aren’t able to ride public transportation or walk to a restaurant or event downtown without being harassed.

I understand what your saying and I have no answers except one, you don’t put someone who isn’t physically touching or even not touching you into a chokehold for 15 minutes until they are dead. IMO
Edited for my usual rush!

 

[kittythehare]

Of course.But assaulting that woman was horrific and the sentence didn't fit such a brutal crime.

I've supplied the NYT link to the actual story.



The story is about a sick man who had his life snuffed out in a subway by somebody who knew better.

That is the story here while we await details of what led to the altercation.

It had nothing to do with his past crimes.

ETA.that we know of.
We have no idea what motivated the former marine.
And MSM are painting him in glowing pictures without having investigated why he left the marines or the level of his discharge or how he's been spending his time since his discharge or anything much at all, just the surfing, ya know..

 

[wary]

Perhaps his 67 year old victim had similar thoughts- just before Neely broke her nose and gave her other facial injuries?

Though Penny would not have known about Neely attacking the woman, Neely might not have been inclined to listen to soothing words, nor to accept a snack or a seat.

Penny didn’t know about Neely’s assaults on other people, but I think it’s very likely that Neely presented himself that day as a dangerously violent person.
MOO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Penny didn’t know about Neely’s assaults on other people, but I think it’s very likely that Neely presented himself that day as a dangerously violent person.
MOO

How? By not doing anything dangerously violent?, he may have presented as unstable and even unsavoury if you like, but he wasn't doing anything violent, he wasn't doing anything threatening, he didn't lay his hands on anyone. The ex marine did though, he layed his hands on someone who was not threatening him. He layed his hands on him from behind and choked him until he was dead.
Which man on the train was more dangerous?.

 

[kittythehare]

How? By not doing anything dangerously violent?, he may have presented as unstable and even unsavoury if you like, but he wasn't doing anything violent, he wasn't doing anything threatening, he didn't lay his hands on anyone. The ex marine did though, he layed his hands on someone who was not threatening him. He layed his hands on him from behind and choked him until he was dead.
Which man on the train was more dangerous?.

not only that, but when he was told to stop by bystanders he refused even though Jordan was unconscious at that stage, he continued.
That takes it to a whole other level.
that is murder if my understanding of the law is any good.

 

[Pitsleuth]

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. And when someone is shouting that they don’t care if they end up in jail for a life sentence, it would not be a stretch to be concerned that their intent is to do something that could lead to such a sentence. There is simply no way to know without video or eyewitness accounts if there was a legitimate threat of violence. But that statement alone indicates to me this was a level above the innocuous homeless/mentally ill encounters that we have all had in a major city.
OTOH, this marine should definitely NOT be allowed to run around performing maneuvers that can kill someone without him intending to do so. In my opinion, that should not go unpunished. But murder charges may be a stretch.
MOO

 

[kittythehare]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655373664378925057