NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

Jordan Neely's Family Releases First Statement On Subway Chokehold Death

Daniel Penny "knew nothing about Jordan’s history when he intentionally wrapped his arms around Jordan’s neck, and squeezed and kept squeezing.”

www.huffpost.com

Graphic video shows Penny holding Neely in a chokehold for at least three minutes, then releasing him, unconscious, on the floor of the car. Other passengers told NBC New York the duration of the hold was closer to 15 minutes.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

I believe a reasonable person would have considered Neely’s words and actions to be threatening.

I think Penny’s actions were justified up to a point, he should have incapacitated Neely without killing him.

There are many instances of homeless people who have savagely attacked innocent people, even murdering people who were just going about their day.

We don’t know whether Neely would have actually harmed anyone or not. But he was threatening.

I firmly believe that people have the right to ride public transportation without being threatened, attacked, injured, or killed.

I also believe that people who have never been in a dangerous situation with a homeless person might not see this the same as those of us who have had scary experiences.

JMO

Maybe people could see his words as threatening (uncomfortable, disquieting, upsetting, anxiety-causing), but were they a threat? A direct threat? Probably not.

Leave the subway car, move a few seats away--heck, if you want to protect people, tell them to move to another car while you watch the guy. But use a chokehold from behind for that long? Nope.

 

[Laughing]

Questions raised about Jordan Neely's mental health care

Jordan Neely's case is perhaps one of the worst examples of a person who may have fallen through the cracks.

abc7ny.com

Neely's case is perhaps one of the worst examples of a person who may have fallen through the cracks. The 30-year-old had been placed on the Department of Social Services Top 50 list of sheltered and homeless individuals which is 'interagency collaborative case management for very very high need individuals.'

 

[Stunned]

The top 50…..how heartbreaking!

 

[nao]

Moo..it is not because of homelessness or ethnicity. It,s the unpredictable, altered state of consciousness....getting in my face, that I don't like.They can be in a suit..I just don't trust crazy.
Neely took off his jacket and threw it on the ground...that's what guys do if they are gonna start fighting. Moo..I think that was the trigger for action. Manslaughter not murder. <modsnip - not victim friendly> He was an accident waiting to happen , that is a sad and cruel way to live and die.....moo

 

[kittythehare]

Questions raised about Jordan Neely's mental health care

Jordan Neely's case is perhaps one of the worst examples of a person who may have fallen through the cracks.

abc7ny.com

Neely's case is perhaps one of the worst examples of a person who may have fallen through the cracks. The 30-year-old had been placed on the Department of Social Services Top 50 list of sheltered and homeless individuals which is 'interagency collaborative case management for very very high need individuals.'

when do we arrive at the bit when we get to ask questions about the former marine's mental health care?
Jordan's sickness didn't kill Jordan, not suggesting he wasn't on a high road to hell , but he'd been on them before and got helped back. he was on radars, he had every chance, people were waitin' for when he was ready...

Like, none of that is gonna happen now, not because of Jordan's sickness but because of somebody else's..
It is not possible to unsee what one has seen.


If addiction was one of his problems, they come when they come.
it's about respecting people and meeting them where they are, particularly in the US.
The skills are there if the resources are not.

 

[Lilibet]

I will say again that I don’t have all the answers. But I do know that people should have the right to ride public transportation without being threatened. And they should be able to walk on a sidewalk without being violently assaulted.

I firmly believe that people have the right to ride public transportation without being threatened, attacked, injured, or killed.

I don’t have all the answers either @IceIce9, and I certainly have empathy for you and anyone who has to live with the uncertainty created by the angry, mentally ill people who live among us in increasing numbers. I will admit that I would find it traumatizing to deal with that on a regular basis.

Jumping off your posts just for the purpose of my own musing (not picking on you ), yes, in a perfect world we “should have the right” to go about our day without being threatened, attacked, injured or killed. But the world is increasingly dysfunctional and filled with unsolvable problems. So our “right” to live in peace and safety will not be realized in the near future unless drastic measures are taken. Marine Penny took a drastic measure to solve the problem of fear that one man created on the subway. In so doing, he took away Mr Neely’s “right to life” and any possibility of his severe mental health issues being lessened or solved.

How do we as a society decide whose rights should be preserved? To achieve the right of people to go about their business safely, how far do we go? I’m sure none of us believes that extermination of the mentally ill is a solution. Mass incarceration in jails or mental institutions (that closed decades ago) is totally impractical, although in many cases it might be a kindness.

What concerns and even frightens me is that historically, when we as a society start to view certain groups of fellow humans as a problem interfering with our rights, the solutions that are considered by those in power gradually lead to “the final solution” that was inflicted on the Jews and others. This has occurred on a lesser scale in other countries. It’s not hyperbole to say that this slippery slope can happen here.

I don’t have an answer to the problems presented in public places by people suffering from mental illness. But I think it’s important to at least examine our feelings carefully so we aren’t unconsciously and inadvertently viewing these troubled ones as “less than” deserving of safety than we are. All of us can easily fall into that trap because we wish for a peaceful life and are frustrated/annoyed/angered by those who deprive us of a sense of peace and safety. I suspect that this is partly what drove Marine Penny to maintain his chokehold beyond the point of no return.
JMO

 

[kittythehare]

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[kittythehare]

The potential criminal charges against Penny might depend on whether a “reasonable” New Yorker would have acted similarly.

If a case does go forward, an argument of self-defense would likely brush up against a “tricky” legal requirement, according to Mark Bederow, a former assistant district attorney in Manhattan

Under New York’s penal code, a person who uses deadly force must not only prove that they feared for their own life or someone else’s, but that any reasonable person would have felt the same way.
Most people who ride the subway system have had occasional uncomfortable encounters with people who shout or behave in unsettling ways, but pose no danger to anyone. The most common response is to simply ignore it or move to a different car. It is unclear why either Penny, or two other men who can be seen on the video helping to restrain Neely, decided to act.

Ex-Marine Who Put Homeless Man in Chokehold on NYC Subway is a West Islip Native

Protests erupted in New York City on Monday over homeless man Jordan Neely’s death, which medical examiners have ruled a homicide. Neely was captured on video being put in a chokehold by Daniel Penny, a former U.S. Marine and West Islip native, but the video does not show what occurred before...

www.longislandpress.com

 

[sds71]

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24-Year-Old Marine to Be Charged With Manslaughter in Jordan Neely Chokehold Death: DA

The 24-year-old Marine seen on video putting Jordan Neely in a chokehold on the floor of an F train in Manhattan 10 days ago, resulting in his death, is expected to be charged and surrender Friday, three sources familiar with the matter tell News 4 New York.

www.nbcnewyork.com

 

[Stunned]

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24-Year-Old Marine to Be Charged With Manslaughter in Jordan Neely Chokehold Death: DA

The 24-year-old Marine seen on video putting Jordan Neely in a chokehold on the floor of an F train in Manhattan 10 days ago, resulting in his death, is expected to be charged and surrender Friday, three sources familiar with the matter tell News 4 New York.

www.nbcnewyork.com

Nice he’s given time. Time that Jordan won’t have. IMO

 

[Cryptic]

Marine veteran who held Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold to be charged with second-degree manslaughter, DA's office says | CNN

Daniel Penny, the US Marine veteran who held Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold aboard a New York subway train earlier this month, will be arrested on a charge of second-degree manslaughter, a spokesperson for the Manhattan District Attorney's Office said Thursday.

www.cnn.com

The DA is going for Second Degree Manslaughter. To me, this sounds like a fair charge.

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

On the other hand, society cannot afford vigilantes. <modsnip>

 

[HmmMysterious]

Marine veteran who held Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold to be charged with second-degree manslaughter, DA's office says | CNN

Daniel Penny, the US Marine veteran who held Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold aboard a New York subway train earlier this month, will be arrested on a charge of second-degree manslaughter, a spokesperson for the Manhattan District Attorney's Office said Thursday.

www.cnn.com

The DA is going for Second Degree Manslaughter. To me, this sounds like a fair charge.

<modsnip>

On the other hand, society cannot afford vigilantes. <modnsip>

<modsnip - "I heard" is not an approved source> Neely deserved the best care in the world.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Several points:

-I don't think any of us believe that JN deserved to die. This is horrible & tragic. And, as someone who has had to dealt with mentally ill homeless people on public transportation before - I think that DP could have elected to walk to another car (if he felt threatened by JN), etc. - maybe.

That being said:

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

- We don't know what would have happened if DP and/or others in that car had gotten up and gone to another car. Again from personal experience, I know that in certain cases - you do not want to make any sudden movements/leave from a situation like this because it could easily set off the disturbed person.

-Again, this all goes back to the most important question here: How threatened did DP & others feel on that car?! Were DP and/or others convinced that an assault/attack by JN was imminent?! JN's comment(s) could definitely be perceived as threatening.

Since I wasn't there, I can't answer that question. Going along with this, different people can definitely have different perceptions of the same exact situation.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

To add to my last post:

No one should ever use a choke-hold meant to only incapacitate another person unless they are 100% confident & certain that they know what the hell they're doing. Even before this case, these types of choke-holds have been all over the news in the past several years - and, it's 100% obvious that they can be extremely deadly if done with too much force.

I suspect that most people out there (i.e., in the general public) probably don't know how to to this right/correctly.

 

[clearskies1]

"The [NYC's] police watchdog is investigating the NYPD over its call not to arrest Daniel Penny in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the subway last week, The Post has learned.

A spokeswoman for Civilian Complaint Review Board confirmed Thursday that a complaint had been filed with the agency and a formal probe was under way to see if there was any wrongdoing in the decision not to charge Penny, 24, after he was questioned by cops following Neely’s death on May 1."

NYPD watchdog probing call not to arrest Daniel Penny in Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

New York City’s police watchdog is investigating the NYPD over its call not to arrest Daniel Penny in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the subway last week.

nypost.com

 

[kittythehare]

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[clearskies1]

How could someone not know that a chokehold that goes on that long will probably kill the person? To me it's basically like shooting a gun. JMO.

 

[clearskies1]

Daniel Penny released on $100k bond for death of Jordan Neely

Penny will today hand himself into the NYPD and is due to be arraigned on a second degree manslaughter charge which he and his supporters say is unwarranted.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cryptic]

My point is that the 1920's and early 30's weren't so great, either. Maybe think about that a little bit? (Not aimed at WSers, of course).

I am guessing there are two components to crime:

1. Raw numbers.
2. Where the crime is occurring and to whom.

This can lead to both an objective view of crime rates (raw numbers) and a subjective view (where and to whom).
I am a middle class suburb dweller. I also patronize a dive bar in a bad area to watch boxing. Getting there means driving past prostitutes, then sitting three tables over from a group of color wearing bikers.

If I were to be victimized by violent crime at that dive bar, there would be an objective statistic. City residents would then make a subjective analysis of:

- I don't go that part of the city at night- who does? I don't go to bars there- at all. Uhmmm...no, I don't walk through back parking lots at midnight in that area- what normal person does that?

If I were to be victimized in front of my middle class home in a neighborhood of rising property values via "flipping", there would be the exact same objective statistic. But the subjective impression would be:

- I live in a normal area just like that and live a normal suburban life. That could easily have been me. Crime is out of control!

When applied to NYC, subway crime is key to the subjective analysis. Nearly all New Yorkers must use the subways. They cant be avoided like dive bars in bad locations. Thus, the subjective "That could of easily been me" kicks in very strong with subway crime and subway chaos.