NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[10ofRods]

I think it's completely unrealistic to expect any random member of the public (including Daniel Penny) to respond to sudden threats of violence like a trained mental health expert or as a charity with extra cash on hand to placate the person shouting the violent threats.

Could he have done things differently? Of course, and I'm sure if he's like most human beings, he's second-guessing everything he said, everything he did, how he did it, why he did it, etc. He made a horrible mistake, while attempting to do something good. I feel bad for the guy. He never got on the subway that day looking for trouble, but it sure found him.

jmo

What bothers me about his response is that he apparently did not call 911 first. Or at least shout out to others, "Call 911!"

I have read that 5 people did call 911, but did they do it after DP started his chokehold?

IOW, did DP add to the terror on the train? If he was making sure that others were in contact with police (and surely people knew the next train stop was near at hand), why did he not ask others to assist in a manner that would have allowed him to release the choke hold? I think a juror is going to focus hard on those questions. No link. IMO.

If people on the train were *so* threatened that they felt force was needed, they should have dialed 911. There were 6-10 LE waiting at the next stop. If they only dialed 911 after DP got involved, that may read to the jury as "they were calling due to an altercation" as opposed to dialing because they felt a threat.

If it seemed to him that there was no time to call 911, he ought to have asked others to do so (take command of the situation!), and calculated that into his response. One part of me thinks he only let up only after Neely was completely limp/unconscious and as they were actually at the station. The fact that he then appears to walk away (departing the train?) before LE arrives is weird to me. Lots of questions. Bottom line: he should have used some words, but he didn't.

I hope he is second-guessing what he did. We don't know that he didn't get on the subway expecting trouble, though (as opposed to looking for it). OTOH, I know several men who, at his age, did ride buses and subways (in SF), acting as their version of Guardian Angels. Remember them? Maybe DP saw himself in the same spirit.

His personal past is sure to come under intense scrutiny, IMO.

Guardian Angels - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JennieM]

Sorry if this was posted before. Very interesting Q&A with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the man who filmed it all, LOTS of information.

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

 

[everybodhi]

“Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death,” his lawyer said.

If you choose to use a military lethal force technique against US civilians (which is banned by all federal LE and many city and state LE), you should at a minimum acknowledge it’s intent is permanent disability or death. Jmo

Why Chokeholds—Used By Daniel Penny On Jordan Neely—Are Increasingly Banned By Police Departments

Both the Justice Department and the American Academy of Neurology note the grip is “inherently dangerous” because a loss of oxygen or blood flow can cause permanent injury to the brain, or death.

The NYC Police Department issued a ban on chokeholds in 1993.
The New York legislature passed the Eric Garner Anti-Chokehold Act in 2020, which prohibits police officers in the state from using chokeholds or similar restraints.

AAN POSITION STATEMENT ON THE USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT

The medical literature and the cumulative experience of neurologists clearly indicate that restricting cerebral blood flow or oxygen delivery, even briefly, can cause permanent injury to the brain, including stroke, cognitive impairment, and death.
Unconsciousness resulting from such maneuvers is a manifestation of catastrophic global brain dysfunction.

Because of the inherently dangerous nature of these techniques, the AAN strongly encourages federal, state, and local law enforcement and policymakers in all jurisdictions to classify neck restraints, at a minimum, as a form of deadly force.

Furthermore, because there is no amount of training or method of application of neck restraints that can mitigate the risk of death or permanent profound neurologic damage with this maneuver, the AAN recommends prohibiting the use of neck restraints.
BBM

 

[Lilibet]

Per links on this thread…

I think we may all be able to agree that Mr Neely had a diagnosed mental illness, that, although unknown to the passengers, was likely evident to anyone who regularly encounters mentally ill individuals in public.

I think we may all be able to agree that Neely needed/deserved to be locked up because of his violence, and receive treatment for his mental illness.

I think we may all be able to agree that, had Mr Neely been appropriately confined, none of this would have happened.

I think we may all be able to agree that there is no proof at this time that anyone on the train knew of his violent history, hypotheticals aside.

I think we may all be able to agree that although Mr Neely’s rant was generally threatening, there is no indication at this time that he had directly threatened or attacked anyone on this train.

I think we may all be able to agree that regular passengers frequently endure this kind of frightening behavior, never knowing if it will escalate into violence.

I think we may all be able to agree that the situation was frightening for the passengers and that they moved away.

I think we may all be able to agree that neither Penny nor anyone else was frightened enough to call 9-11 before Penny acted to restrain Mr.Neely.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny came from behind Mr Neely, executed a chokehold and took him down to the floor where he was assisted by two other men.

I think we may be able to agree that if we were held in a chokehold we would kick and move as Mr Neely did in an attempt to escape and breathe.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny carried out the chokehold incorrectly and too long per his Marine training, and should not have used it at all per most current LE practice.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny continued the chokehold when Mr Neely was no longer a threat and when he had been advised to stop.

I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions.

I think we may all be able to agree that once Penny stopped the chokehold, he got up, retrieved his hat and stood looking down at Mr Neely, not rendering appropriate aid of any kind.

I think we may all be able to agree that we have no proof that Penny set out to kill Mr Neely, but that his subsequent use of lethal force and failure to render aid was responsible for Mr Neely’s death.

I think we may all be able to agree that both Websleuths and the legal system view Mr Neely as the victim and that blaming the victim is not appropriate or fair.

I think we may be able to agree that, as the victim, Mr. Neely’s criminal history cannot be used after-the-fact as a defense for what Penny decided to do.

I *hope* we may be able to agree that we are sliding down a slippery slope toward vigilante “justice” if we view disadvantaged and marginalized fellow humans as being frightening, unpleasant and inconvenient members of society who enter our space at their own risk…and those who “remove” them as defensible.

ETA: I *hope* we all realize that just as there are not enough institutions to house or staff to care for the violent criminals who walk among us, the same deficit exists for the mentally ill who walk among us.
JMO MOO

 

[Ozoner]

Per links on this thread…

I think we may all be able to agree that Mr Neely had a diagnosed mental illness, that, although unknown to the passengers, was likely evident to anyone who regularly encounters mentally ill individuals in public.

I think we may all be able to agree that Neely needed/deserved to be locked up because of his violence, and receive treatment for his mental illness.

I think we may all be able to agree that, had Mr Neely been appropriately confined, none of this would have happened.

I think we may all be able to agree that there is no proof at this time that anyone on the train knew of his violent history, hypotheticals aside.

I think we may all be able to agree that although Mr Neely’s rant was generally threatening, there is no indication at this time that he had directly threatened or attacked anyone on this train.

I think we may all be able to agree that regular passengers frequently endure this kind of frightening behavior, never knowing if it will escalate into violence.

I think we may all be able to agree that the situation was frightening for the passengers and that they moved away.

I think we may all be able to agree that neither Penny nor anyone else was frightened enough to call 9-11 before Penny acted to restrain Mr.Neely.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny came from behind Mr Neely, executed a chokehold and took him down to the floor where he was assisted by two other men.

I think we may be able to agree that if we were held in a chokehold we would kick and move as Mr Neely did in an attempt to escape and breathe.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny carried out the chokehold incorrectly and too long per his Marine training, and should not have used it at all per most current LE practice.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny continued the chokehold when Mr Neely was no longer a threat and when he had been advised to stop.

I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions.

I think we may all be able to agree that once Penny stopped the chokehold, he got up, retrieved his hat and stood looking down at Mr Neely, not rendering appropriate aid of any kind.

I think we may all be able to agree that we have no proof that Penny set out to kill Mr Neely, but that his subsequent use of lethal force and failure to render aid was responsible for Mr Neely’s death.

I think we may all be able to agree that both Websleuths and the legal system view Mr Neely as the victim and that blaming the victim is not appropriate or fair.

I think we may be able to agree that, as the victim, Mr. Neely’s criminal history cannot be used after-the-fact as a defense for what Penny decided to do.

I *hope* we may be able to agree that we are sliding down a slippery slope toward vigilante “justice” if we view disadvantaged and marginalized fellow humans as being frightening, unpleasant and inconvenient members of society who enter our space at their own risk…and those who “remove” them as defensible.

ETA: I *hope* we all realize that just as there are not enough institutions to house or staff to care for the violent criminals who walk among us, the same deficit exists for the mentally ill who walk among us.
JMO MOO

No, we don't agree with all of those statements. The first few are reasonable, but this one is not, in my opinion:
"I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions."

BBM - JN's situation and NP's situation were completely different. JN was the one whose actions created the tense situation. You could say that his mental illness played a role, but that didn't make him any less of a threat. In fact, it probably made him more of a threat.

I also see it as an oversimplification to refer to JN as simply a victim; he created the situation, so his role is more complex than that.

 

[Jade]

What bothers me about his response is that he apparently did not call 911 first. Or at least shout out to others, "Call 911!"

I have read that 5 people did call 911, but did they do it after DP started his chokehold?

IOW, did DP add to the terror on the train? If he was making sure that others were in contact with police (and surely people knew the next train stop was near at hand), why did he not ask others to assist in a manner that would have allowed him to release the choke hold? I think a juror is going to focus hard on those questions. No link. IMO.

If people on the train were *so* threatened that they felt force was needed, they should have dialed 911. There were 6-10 LE waiting at the next stop. If they only dialed 911 after DP got involved, that may read to the jury as "they were calling due to an altercation" as opposed to dialing because they felt a threat.

If it seemed to him that there was no time to call 911, he ought to have asked others to do so (take command of the situation!), and calculated that into his response. One part of me thinks he only let up only after Neely was completely limp/unconscious and as they were actually at the station. The fact that he then appears to walk away (departing the train?) before LE arrives is weird to me. Lots of questions. Bottom line: he should have used some words, but he didn't.

I hope he is second-guessing what he did. We don't know that he didn't get on the subway expecting trouble, though (as opposed to looking for it). OTOH, I know several men who, at his age, did ride buses and subways (in SF), acting as their version of Guardian Angels. Remember them? Maybe DP saw himself in the same spirit.

His personal past is sure to come under intense scrutiny, IMO.

Guardian Angels - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BBM

New York police previously said officers responded to the subway station after they got a 911 call about a physical fight. An investigation revealed that Neely and Penny had a verbal dispute that "escalated into a physical altercation," a spokesperson said.

NYC subway rider who put Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold to be charged with manslaughter


imo

 

[kittythehare]

BBM

New York police previously said officers responded to the subway station after they got a 911 call about a physical fight. An investigation revealed that Neely and Penny had a verbal dispute that "escalated into a physical altercation," a spokesperson said.

NYC subway rider who put Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold to be charged with manslaughter


imo

I'm not sure if that is accurate.
I have a feeling there was zero interaction between them before Penny engaged with choke hold.
Very many of the media reports were totally inaccurate.
Huff Po analysed those.

How The Media Made A Villain Out Of Jordan Neely

Anonymous police sources quickly set the narrative after Daniel Penny put Neely in a deadly chokehold on the subway.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Jade]

I'm not sure if that is accurate.
I have a feeling there was zero interaction between them before Penny engaged with choke hold.
Very many of the media reports were totally inaccurate.
Huff Po analysed those.

How The Media Made A Villain Out Of Jordan Neely

Anonymous police sources quickly set the narrative after Daniel Penny put Neely in a deadly chokehold on the subway.

www.huffpost.com

Right, there is another article which says there was no contact at all before the attack.

I mainly wanted to confirm, as best we can at this time, that the 911 calls were to report a fight not Neely to 10ofRods point of: If people on the train were *so* threatened that they felt force was needed, they should have dialed 911. There were 6-10 LE waiting at the next stop. If they only dialed 911 after DP got involved, that may read to the jury as "they were calling due to an altercation" as opposed to dialing because they felt a threat.

The 911 calls will be a matter of record so that will be sorted out correctly.

Thank you for pointing out the discrepancies in the reports.

all imo

 

[kittythehare]

Right, there is another article which says there was no contact at all before the attack.

I mainly wanted to confirm, as best we can at this time, that the 911 calls were to report a fight not Neely to 10ofRods point of: If people on the train were *so* threatened that they felt force was needed, they should have dialed 911. There were 6-10 LE waiting at the next stop. If they only dialed 911 after DP got involved, that may read to the jury as "they were calling due to an altercation" as opposed to dialing because they felt a threat.

The 911 calls will be a matter of record so that will be sorted out correctly.

Thank you for pointing out the discrepancies in the reports.

all imo

It has caused complete chaos, right from the original report from the guy that filmed the last 4 minutes of it, he stated it lasted 15 minutes but I did my best to search and he has changed that in several reports.. could be anything from 15 minutes to 10 if what he is saying is accurate.
It could even be less.
Also English is not his first language and that has also contributed to discrepancies imo.

It's very frustrating.
We'd normally have a few basic facts to hang our discussions on.

I cannot find his original video either, it was very clear though and showed quite a few people around, on their phones and looking in on the situation as it ended.

For that reason I think it's likely that LE did find some solid witnesses. i just don't know how much of it they actually saw.
They must have as they went straight to charging sans GJ but even thinking about that GJ rumour , I do wonder whether it was something media suggested and then we were all expecting it to happen. Was there any basis at all for it or mere speculation?
Who can we trust?

Jordan is a political football now, still getting kicked around even though he is quite dead.

i just hope there is some peace for him in the afterlife with his mother, both victims of homicide.. like the truth, whatever that turns out to be.

I'm angry because I feel manipulated by false news posing as factual acquisition via opinion pieces.
I'd come to that conclusion ever before this case or any case at all.

It's a of narratives and almost no facts, just that he is dead. And no idea why.

I'm reading the wildest theories online, latest being that he was really alive and either the Democrats or the Republicans, depending upon who is saying it, had him assassinated en route to the hospital for some weird reasons of their own interspersed with the language of conspiracies and method actors etc etc etc etc..and some Martians thrown in for good measure. I don't know whether they believe themselves or not.

It's chaos.

Do people believe these theories or are they too being manipulated?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and Penny are seen on the floor of a subway car with Penny's arm wrapped around Neely's neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

Man who held Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold on NYC subway 'never intended to harm' him: attorneys

Daniel Penny, 24, has been identified by his attorneys as the US Marine veteran who held down Jordan Neely on Monday afternoon while they were aboard the train in NYC.

abc7chicago.com

 

[10ofRods]

Sorry if this was posted before. Very interesting Q&A with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the man who filmed it all, LOTS of information.

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

This certainly helps me understand what happened, way better. Thank you for posting.

From that man's very detailed and believable account (he's the one who took the video - but he tells how he didn't start the video right away), there appeared to be no interaction between Neely and Penny before the chokehold; Penny does tell people to dial 911, but 911 was not dialed until after the choke hold began.

The man giving this interview does not sound as if he thought there was a violent threat, IMO.

I think we can expect that various NYers, if called to a juror, are going to have to judge for themselves the facts of this case.

IMO.

 

[Sundog]

Per links on this thread…

I think we may all be able to agree that Mr Neely had a diagnosed mental illness, that, although unknown to the passengers, was likely evident to anyone who regularly encounters mentally ill individuals in public.

I think we may all be able to agree that Neely needed/deserved to be locked up because of his violence, and receive treatment for his mental illness.

I think we may all be able to agree that, had Mr Neely been appropriately confined, none of this would have happened.

I think we may all be able to agree that there is no proof at this time that anyone on the train knew of his violent history, hypotheticals aside.

I think we may all be able to agree that although Mr Neely’s rant was generally threatening, there is no indication at this time that he had directly threatened or attacked anyone on this train.

I think we may all be able to agree that regular passengers frequently endure this kind of frightening behavior, never knowing if it will escalate into violence.

I think we may all be able to agree that the situation was frightening for the passengers and that they moved away.

I think we may all be able to agree that neither Penny nor anyone else was frightened enough to call 9-11 before Penny acted to restrain Mr.Neely.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny came from behind Mr Neely, executed a chokehold and took him down to the floor where he was assisted by two other men.

I think we may be able to agree that if we were held in a chokehold we would kick and move as Mr Neely did in an attempt to escape and breathe.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny carried out the chokehold incorrectly and too long per his Marine training, and should not have used it at all per most current LE practice.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny continued the chokehold when Mr Neely was no longer a threat and when he had been advised to stop.

I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions.

I think we may all be able to agree that once Penny stopped the chokehold, he got up, retrieved his hat and stood looking down at Mr Neely, not rendering appropriate aid of any kind.

I think we may all be able to agree that we have no proof that Penny set out to kill Mr Neely, but that his subsequent use of lethal force and failure to render aid was responsible for Mr Neely’s death.

I think we may all be able to agree that both Websleuths and the legal system view Mr Neely as the victim and that blaming the victim is not appropriate or fair.

I think we may be able to agree that, as the victim, Mr. Neely’s criminal history cannot be used after-the-fact as a defense for what Penny decided to do.

I *hope* we may be able to agree that we are sliding down a slippery slope toward vigilante “justice” if we view disadvantaged and marginalized fellow humans as being frightening, unpleasant and inconvenient members of society who enter our space at their own risk…and those who “remove” them as defensible.

ETA: I *hope* we all realize that just as there are not enough institutions to house or staff to care for the violent criminals who walk among us, the same deficit exists for the mentally ill who walk among us.
JMO MOO

I think we need to wait until all the evidence comes out at the trial, hear from the others who were on the subway car, hear Mr. Penny's defense, etc. to make these determinations.

 

[shotgun09]

I think we need to wait until all the evidence comes out at the trial, hear from the others who were on the subway car, hear Mr. Penny's defense, etc. to make these determinations.

Yeah, I can go for that. Innocent until proven guilty...and all that jazz.

 

[10ofRods]

Per links on this thread…

I think we may all be able to agree that Mr Neely had a diagnosed mental illness, that, although unknown to the passengers, was likely evident to anyone who regularly encounters mentally ill individuals in public.

I think we may all be able to agree that Neely needed/deserved to be locked up because of his violence, and receive treatment for his mental illness.

I think we may all be able to agree that, had Mr Neely been appropriately confined, none of this would have happened.

I think we may all be able to agree that there is no proof at this time that anyone on the train knew of his violent history, hypotheticals aside.

I think we may all be able to agree that although Mr Neely’s rant was generally threatening, there is no indication at this time that he had directly threatened or attacked anyone on this train.

I think we may all be able to agree that regular passengers frequently endure this kind of frightening behavior, never knowing if it will escalate into violence.

I think we may all be able to agree that the situation was frightening for the passengers and that they moved away.

I think we may all be able to agree that neither Penny nor anyone else was frightened enough to call 9-11 before Penny acted to restrain Mr.Neely.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny came from behind Mr Neely, executed a chokehold and took him down to the floor where he was assisted by two other men.

I think we may be able to agree that if we were held in a chokehold we would kick and move as Mr Neely did in an attempt to escape and breathe.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny carried out the chokehold incorrectly and too long per his Marine training, and should not have used it at all per most current LE practice.

I think we may all be able to agree that Penny continued the chokehold when Mr Neely was no longer a threat and when he had been advised to stop.

I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions.

I think we may all be able to agree that once Penny stopped the chokehold, he got up, retrieved his hat and stood looking down at Mr Neely, not rendering appropriate aid of any kind.

I think we may all be able to agree that we have no proof that Penny set out to kill Mr Neely, but that his subsequent use of lethal force and failure to render aid was responsible for Mr Neely’s death.

I think we may all be able to agree that both Websleuths and the legal system view Mr Neely as the victim and that blaming the victim is not appropriate or fair.

I think we may be able to agree that, as the victim, Mr. Neely’s criminal history cannot be used after-the-fact as a defense for what Penny decided to do.

I *hope* we may be able to agree that we are sliding down a slippery slope toward vigilante “justice” if we view disadvantaged and marginalized fellow humans as being frightening, unpleasant and inconvenient members of society who enter our space at their own risk…and those who “remove” them as defensible.

ETA: I *hope* we all realize that just as there are not enough institutions to house or staff to care for the violent criminals who walk among us, the same deficit exists for the mentally ill who walk among us.
JMO MOO

From the interview with the guy who took the video, the way I read it, people only started moving away after Penny got up. Penny's actions caused an automatic movement of people, due to the fact that straphangers were standing in the aisle, along with Neely. That's how I read his interview, anyway. So people did not move away from Neely, per se. Neely's most violent action was to throw his jacket on the floor, according to that witness, but he does not mention people moving away until Penny gets involved. Naturally, two people on the floor of the car is going to make it so that people have to move.

That same interview reveals that there was a conductor in or near the car at some point and that he was asked not to shut the car doors (the man who made the video actually exited the car at the stop where we eventually see LE showing up, and filmed through the window, then after the car emptied of all but the men directly involving themselves with the situation, he went back inside to film).

We (WSers) never have proof of intent - that's something that must be investigated and put on trial, IMO. Intent is legally different from state to state. I have no idea what Penny was thinking.

I agree with everything else you said. And it was a very important set of statements. I do agree with the legal system AND WS policies that Neely is the victim here.

Your post is Solid Gold and I wish we had awards to give. All I can provide is this:

Thank you. IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

No, we don't agree with all of those statements. The first few are reasonable, but this one is not, in my opinion:
"I think we may be able to agree that if one excuses Penny’s fear and/or adrenalin for performing or maintaining a potentially lethal chokehold, one should also excuse Mr Neely’s adrenalin and/or mental illness for his words and actions."

BBM - JN's situation and NP's situation were completely different. JN was the one whose actions created the tense situation. You could say that his mental illness played a role, but that didn't make him any less of a threat. In fact, it probably made him more of a threat.

I also see it as an oversimplification to refer to JN as simply a victim; he created the situation, so his role is more complex than that.

I understand your opinion. To clarify, please note that I very deliberately said “I think we MAY be able to agree,” so as not to make assumptions about anyone’s opinions.

The facts as we know them so far (from the links on the thread), are that Mr Neely had not ACTED upon his words and actions so that anyone WAS ACTUALLY threatened. Yes, people may have FELT threatened, but we have not heard that he directed his rant at anyone in particular.

I wonder why some/many are not willing to accept that Mr Neely’s mental illness rendered him less in control of his actions than Penny. Even though Mr Neely’s disturbed and disturbing presence on the train made people uncomfortable or even frightened, Penny turned Mr Neely into a victim when he put him in a lengthy chokehold that killed him IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

I think we need to wait until all the evidence comes out at the trial, hear from the others who were on the subway car, hear Mr. Penny's defense, etc. to make these determinations.

I began my post with the words “Per links on this thread…” That’s all we have at the moment. Based on that information, I listed what we MAY (not will or should) be able to agree on. I feel it’s important to at least examine what we have been given so far. Of course there will be evidence at trial and witnesses that may or will change the information we currently have and that has been linked. There always is. But lack of all the evidence never stops us here on WS from forming opinions on other cases…because we are not in court.

Yeah, I can go for that. Innocent until proven guilty...and all that jazz.

The principle of “innocent until proven guilty” applies in a trial. On Websleuths it is not considered necessary (by the owner of Websleuths) to refrain from forming an opinion regarding innocence or guilt of the accused prior to trial. FWIW The only times I *personally* have observed members use “innocent until proven guilty” as the reason for wanting to wait for the trial to form an opinion about guilt is when a marginalized person is the victim of homicide by someone who is not marginalized.

JMO MOO

 

[Lilibet]

I agree with everything else you said. And it was a very important set of statements. I do agree with the legal system AND WS policies that Neely is the victim here.

Your post is Solid Gold and I wish we had awards to give. All I can provide is this:

I’m honored and humbled to received this “award” from a member as educated, experienced and respected in this field as you @10ofRods! Thank you. It means a lot on a case as fraught with emotion as this one is. Back at you!

 

[JennieM]

The timeline put forward by Juan Alberto Vasquez who filmed the incident makes it clear to me that it was the fight (not Neely) that really scared people and that's when they started calling the police. Penny asked them to call the police during the fight when he started being questioned by other passengers about the fight and who he was.


"We stopped at Second Ave., and I saw someone running toward the doors. The door was just about to close — three, five inches away from closing — when Jordan stuck his hand between them. Can you believe that? The irony. The irony that [...] if he’d gotten there a single second later, the door would have closed and he wouldn’t have gotten in.

But he stopped the door from closing and he got on the train. And he stood in the middle of the train car, and then he started yelling that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.

[...]

And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling.

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously afraid, because now there was an actual fight. I got out, and I was watching them on the floor with this other man helping to hold Neely down. And then there’s just this confusion over what to do, all these people standing around on the platform, and some of them were yelling, “Call the police, call the police.” There were a couple of people who approached the blond guy, they say he’s a marine, and asked him, “What’s going on?” And he told them to call the police.

Obviously, the conductor had no idea what was going on. He was just going to close the doors and keep going. But there were people who stood between the doors and said, “No! Don’t close the doors!” I went over to the conductor too, and he was saying over the speaker, “Police, police!” But obviously there weren’t any police in the station. So I went back to where the scene was. And that’s when I started to film.

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

 

[JennieM]

"Then, when Jordan tried to escape again, they rolled over, and I could see his face and his attempts to escape. Then he wasn’t moving anymore, and we were all looking at each other, like, “What’s going on? Did he faint? What happened?” I got off the train, and I filmed another 30-second video where you can see it’s the F train. In that second video, you can see Neely is lying down and two guys are standing over him — the one who grabbed him and one other man. The second guy, he wanted to help. You can see in my first video that he never touches Jordan and never tries to restrain him; he is simply trying to listen to him and trying to tell the other one not to squeeze him so hard."

[...]

Jordan wasn’t asking for money. Jordan wasn’t asking for food. He was lamenting that he didn’t have any, he was lamenting that he was fed up, that he didn’t mind going to jail, and, up until that point, everything was fine. As far as I saw, he stood still and that encouraged people to stay calm, to stay in their place. When he raised his jacket, that’s when people panicked a little and those who were around him moved. But he didn’t move either. These people who were standing between us, that couple did not move at all. They were just standing, watching him. They stayed there as if to say: “Well, until we see that there is some kind of risk.”

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

 

[elevatorific]

The timeline put forward by Juan Alberto Vasquez who filmed the incident makes it clear to me that it was the fight (not Neely) that really scared people and that's when they started calling the police. Penny asked them to call the police during the fight when he started being questioned by other passengers about the fight and who he was.


"We stopped at Second Ave., and I saw someone running toward the doors. The door was just about to close — three, five inches away from closing — when Jordan stuck his hand between them. Can you believe that? The irony. The irony that [...] if he’d gotten there a single second later, the door would have closed and he wouldn’t have gotten in.

But he stopped the door from closing and he got on the train. And he stood in the middle of the train car, and then he started yelling that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.

[...]

And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling.

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously afraid, because now there was an actual fight. I got out, and I was watching them on the floor with this other man helping to hold Neely down. And then there’s just this confusion over what to do, all these people standing around on the platform, and some of them were yelling, “Call the police, call the police.” There were a couple of people who approached the blond guy, they say he’s a marine, and asked him, “What’s going on?” And he told them to call the police.

Obviously, the conductor had no idea what was going on. He was just going to close the doors and keep going. But there were people who stood between the doors and said, “No! Don’t close the doors!” I went over to the conductor too, and he was saying over the speaker, “Police, police!” But obviously there weren’t any police in the station. So I went back to where the scene was. And that’s when I started to film.

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

Whats really interesting about this is that 1. Jordan was hardly on the train at all before the whole thing ensued (2nd Ave is 2 minutes from Broadway-Lafayette) and 2. however long the whole altercation was, almost all of it - well beyond just the video we've seen - took place after the train was stopped at the station.

So it's hard to see how a scenario of passengers being scared and trapped with a "raving lunatic" disturbed homeless man for any meaningful amount of time can be correct.