NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[10ofRods]

The timeline put forward by Juan Alberto Vasquez who filmed the incident makes it clear to me that it was the fight (not Neely) that really scared people and that's when they started calling the police. Penny asked them to call the police during the fight when he started being questioned by other passengers about the fight and who he was.


"We stopped at Second Ave., and I saw someone running toward the doors. The door was just about to close — three, five inches away from closing — when Jordan stuck his hand between them. Can you believe that? The irony. The irony that [...] if he’d gotten there a single second later, the door would have closed and he wouldn’t have gotten in.

But he stopped the door from closing and he got on the train. And he stood in the middle of the train car, and then he started yelling that he didn’t have food, that he didn’t have water. From what I understood, he was yelling that he was tired, that he didn’t care about going to jail.

[...]

And then I heard him take off his jacket. He bundled it up and just threw it on the floor, very violently. You could hear the sound of the zipper hitting the floor. At that moment, when he threw the jacket, the people who were sitting around him stood up and moved away. He kept standing there and he kept yelling.

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

When the two doors opened, everyone rushed out, obviously afraid, because now there was an actual fight. I got out, and I was watching them on the floor with this other man helping to hold Neely down. And then there’s just this confusion over what to do, all these people standing around on the platform, and some of them were yelling, “Call the police, call the police.” There were a couple of people who approached the blond guy, they say he’s a marine, and asked him, “What’s going on?” And he told them to call the police.

Obviously, the conductor had no idea what was going on. He was just going to close the doors and keep going. But there were people who stood between the doors and said, “No! Don’t close the doors!” I went over to the conductor too, and he was saying over the speaker, “Police, police!” But obviously there weren’t any police in the station. So I went back to where the scene was. And that’s when I started to film.

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

I read it the same way. People moved out of the car, got off the train, dialed 911 (etc) only after they saw two men grappling on the floor of the car. I was surprised that the train was already stopped at a platform during much of this and that there was a conductor present (who was apparently trying to get the train going again? not sure). Police arrive soon after Penny appears to leave the immediate vicinity of the victim (I don't think he fled or anything, he just goes out of frame in the video).

So, it will be up to a NYC jury to decide whether this was a reasonable response. If this man is correct (and he probably is), many NYers might feel the same way.

IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm reluctant to post this because it is impossible to verify even though it's MSM

Cops believe they have ID of man seen helping to restrain Jordan Neely on NYC subway

It’s not clear which of the two people authorities found: The man who struggled hard on the recording to tie up Neely’s flailing arms, or the man who mostly stood off to the side and pu…

nypost.com

 

[kittythehare]

One man stepped into the train and told Mr. Penny, “You’re going to kill him.” He was not seen to physically intervene.

The police interviewed at least several bystanders after the incident, according to internal documents obtained by The New York Times. The police and the Manhattan district attorney have since put out public calls for more witnesses to come forward.
( Seriously wonderful legacy news reporting here- at least several!!!! God help us all)

Around 10 passengers observed the three holding down Mr. Neely, 30, who slipped into unconsciousness

They Watched Jordan Neely Die. Did They Have a Duty to Intervene? (Published 2023)

New York does not require bystanders to act when someone is in danger, but the killing on the F train has residents debating when they should step in.

www.nytimes.com

meaningless fluff piece IMO

 

[10ofRods]

One man stepped into the train and told Mr. Penny, “You’re going to kill him.” He was not seen to physically intervene.

The police interviewed at least several bystanders after the incident, according to internal documents obtained by The New York Times. The police and the Manhattan district attorney have since put out public calls for more witnesses to come forward.
( Seriously wonderful legacy news reporting here- at least several!!!! God help us all)

Around 10 passengers observed the three holding down Mr. Neely, 30, who slipped into unconsciousness

They Watched Jordan Neely Die. Did They Have a Duty to Intervene? (Published 2023)

New York does not require bystanders to act when someone is in danger, but the killing on the F train has residents debating when they should step in.

www.nytimes.com

meaningless fluff piece IMO

The way this is being covered in MSM is fascinating.

 

[Tman2004]

This breaks my heart.
People had shown him kindness, particularly this judge.

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, the police said. The woman suffered severe facial injuries, including a broken nose, according to court documents. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

He pleaded guilty on Feb. 9 of this year, in a carefully planned strategy between the city and his lawyers to allow him to get treatment and stay out of prison.
“Do you know what the goal is today?” the judge, Ellen M. Biben, asked at the hearing.
“Yes,” Mr. Neely replied.
“What is that goal?”
“To make it physically and mentally to the program.”

It's the oldest story in the world about addiction and mental illness.

How Two Men’s Disparate Paths Crossed in a Killing on the F Train (Published 2023)

Jordan Neely’s mental health decline played out in public after his mother was strangled. Daniel Penny said he was protecting himself and others when he choked Mr. Neely.

www.nytimes.com

If anyone’s to blame it’s the city and the failed policies. The decedent should have never been on the streets. He was a violent felon and clearly sick in the head. Why was he allowed to roam free?

 

[HmmMysterious]

If anyone’s to blame it’s the city and the failed policies. The decedent should have never been on the streets. He was a violent felon and clearly sick in the head. Why was he allowed to roam free?

Because the city clearly doesn't care about the mentally ill. It prefers to over-fund the police department while neglecting mental health services, public schools, affordable housing etc

 

[Tman2004]

Because the city clearly doesn't care about the mentally ill. It prefers to over-fund the police department while neglecting mental health services, public schools, affordable housing etc

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

 

[elevatorific]

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

Most crime, including on this website, is perpetrated by non-strangers.
For Daniel Penny to preemptively attack Jordan Neely after just 1 minute in that subway car... that's the violent crime here.

 

[Lilibet]

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

Please realize that there is no indication so far that Mr Neely acted violently or threatened anyone directly. His words and actions were apparently no different from any other mentally ill person in the midst of an episode. Nor is there any indication that Penny or anyone else on that train knew of his arrest/conviction record. As far as anyone was concerned, there was no indication that Mr Neely was a “violent felon” requiring physical intervention from anyone, least of all a private citizen who choked him to death.

Obviously, there is a discussion to be had about whether Mr. Neely should have been walking free. IMO He needed to be incarcerated and receive treatment. But since Mr Penny was apparently not privy to Mr Neely’s history, he was not protecting himself or anyone else from a known violent felon about to strike, based on anything other than Penny’s fears. And as we all know, since we are on a crime website, many acts of violent crime take place quickly and silently, so no one has a chance to evaluate the criminal’s behavior and decide to act before he hurts anyone.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

I'm afraid that nobody actually knows why Penny intervened or whether his intervention was rational or reasonable.
We're up to speed on crime here, thanks.

 

[Veronica Sawyer]

I'm not saying she didn't exist! Of course she did! I'm saying deadly force was still being used when everyone was fully able to retreat - train stopped at station. I only mentioned the elderly woman in response to your previous comment, if she was the one scared and threatened, she was gone by that time.

(ETA - everyone except Neely, he couldn't retreat because he was in a chokehold, which is why at that time he would may have been within his right to kill the person holding him)

To be fair, JN should not have been able to retreat at that particular point in time because the conductor can be heard on the loud speaker directing NYPD to that subway car on account of the incident so no one involved should’ve been able to retreat IMO. Had the marine made a play to escape I would’ve hoped for someone to step in and detain him too. That’s not to say JN should’ve still been in a chokehold though.

 

[Jade]

I'm reluctant to post this because it is impossible to verify even though it's MSM

Cops believe they have ID of man seen helping to restrain Jordan Neely on NYC subway

It’s not clear which of the two people authorities found: The man who struggled hard on the recording to tie up Neely’s flailing arms, or the man who mostly stood off to the side and pu…

nypost.com

Oh, how horrible, a picture of Jordan Neely dead alone on the floor with the attackers standing over him looking not a bit concerned or bothered.

The picture of the guy participating in the chokehold compression by holding his arms. The other leaning over so he can join in the choke out.

Neely’s attackers look like they have never missed a meal unless they wanted to, clean, well-rested and totally self-satisfied over their kill.





All imo

 

[Jade]

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

Why would they be there? It’s not a crime to be a loud, homeless, black man.

The First Amendment protects speech from government censorship including police officers.

Jordan Neely was exercising his First Amendment Constitutional right to free speech.

Jordan Neely’s speech did not raise to “true threat” as he did not direct his speech to an individual or specific group or incite others to do so. It was general ranting that was pretty much ignored.



All imo

 

[Lilibet]

Oh, how horrible, a picture of Jordan Neely dead alone on the floor with the attackers standing over him looking not a bit concerned or bothered.

The picture of the guy participating in the chokehold compression by holding his arms. The other leaning over so he can join in the choke out.

Neely’s attackers look like they have never missed a meal unless they wanted to, clean, well-rested and totally self-satisfied over their kill.





All imo

I’ve been trying and failing to find the words to express my horrified disgust at that photo. Thank you for saying exactly what I wanted to say!

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Why would they be there? It’s not a crime to be a loud, homeless, black man.

The First Amendment protects speech from government censorship including police officers.

Jordan Neely was exercising his First Amendment Constitutional right to free speech.

Jordan Neely’s speech did not raise to “true threat” as he did not direct his speech to an individual or specific group or incite others to do so. It was general ranting that was pretty much ignored.



All imo

Apparently Mr Neely didn’t get the memo that none of his human and civil rights apply when someone like Penny is riding his train.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

They don’t care. There were no police in the subways obviously or else they would have intervened. That’s why the marine guy acted. You can’t just keep releasing violent felons to the streets and expecting there to not be more incidents. We’re on a crime website we all should realize how much crime is happening lol.

Two individuals have now given reports to the media about their fear riding in that subway car with JN's erratic and threatening behavior, and indicated that they were terrified. There are likely others, but they have chosen not to speak to the media, understandably, given the threats and backlash they could face if they shared their experiences and opinions publicly.

Here is the second witnesses' description about how she was grateful that Penny protected them in a "sardine can-like" environment.

Subway chokehold witness calls Daniel Penny is a 'hero'

Penny, 24, is facing second degree manslaughter charges for putting Neely in the chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

edits for typos/clarification

 

[elevatorific]

Two individuals have now given reports to the media about their fear riding in that subway car with JN's erratic and threatening behavior, and indicated that they were terrified. There are likely others, but they have chosen not to speak to the media, understandably, given the threats and backlash they could face if they shared their experiences and opinions publicly.

Here is the second witnesses' description about how she was grateful that Penny protected them in a "sardine can-like" environment.

Subway chokehold witness calls Daniel Penny is a 'hero'

Penny, 24, is facing second degree manslaughter charges for putting Neely in the chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

edits for typos/clarification

Just one witness actually. That's the same elderly woman.
And the sardine can like environment is verifiably untrue given that most of the attack took place in an empty train at the station.

 

[Sundog]

Just one witness actually. That's the same elderly woman.
And the sardine can like environment is verifiably untrue given that most of the attack took place in an empty train at the station.

One of the women on the train was an unidentified 66-year-old who previously spoke out in defense of Penny.

Now, another is telling her story of how Penny protected them.


'He said, "I don’t care if I have to kill an f, I will. I’ll go to jail, I’ll take a bullet." I’m looking at where we are in the tube, in the sardine can, and I’m like, "OK, we’re in between stations. There’s nowhere we can go."

'The people on that train, we were scared. We were scared for our lives.'

Subway chokehold witness calls Daniel Penny is a 'hero'

Penny, 24, is facing second degree manslaughter charges for putting Neely in the chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

edited to add BBM

 

[10ofRods]

Just one witness actually. That's the same elderly woman.
And the sardine can like environment is verifiably untrue given that most of the attack took place in an empty train at the station.

That's what shocked me about the video. I guess I could see restraining JN until terrified passengers (if any) left the car at the platform. But that's not what happened. The car is empty at one point, except for the three men restraining JN and JN himself. Then the videographer re-enters the car to document what's going on. There are also two women who remain behind, near the door, watching, but they too eventually depart.

The choke hold should have been relaxed at that point. Police were on their way, they could have switched to a different manner of restraining JN, as I guess the three men were frightened and felt threatened at that point? But JN was so clearly close to passing out and goes limp long before the choke hold is ended. Self-defense is minimum force to ensure safety of those threatened by individual.

IMO.

 

[elevatorific]

One of the women on the train was an unidentified 66-year-old who previously spoke out in defense of Penny.

Now, another is telling her story of how Penny protected them.


'He said, "I don’t care if I have to kill an f, I will. I’ll go to jail, I’ll take a bullet." I’m looking at where we are in the tube, in the sardine can, and I’m like, "OK, we’re in between stations. There’s nowhere we can go."

'The people on that train, we were scared. We were scared for our lives.'

Subway chokehold witness calls Daniel Penny is a 'hero'

Penny, 24, is facing second degree manslaughter charges for putting Neely in the chokehold.

www.dailymail.co.uk

edited to add BBM

Dailymail didn't speak to her. They are sourcing from Fox News, and the article there doesn't say this is a different, separate person at all. Any idea why that might be?