4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

[Warwick7]

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Right. The person walking around at night was wearing all black. Not Xana lying on the floor. What she was wearing, not wearing, had on or over her when anyone might have been looking at her and assumed she was passed out rather than deceased has not been specified yet.

No, I took that to mean that Xana was wearing all black that day, so perhaps DM saw XANA, not a stranger in the house. That's the only way the exchange makes sense, IMO. Otherwise, DM wouldn't have responded with "no it's like a ski mask."

MOO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

D response to State MIL

Mr. Kohberger “has met the criteria for this diagnosis since childhood and that it is not a ‘convenient’ diagnosis given his current legal situation and jeopardy.” (Defendant Exhibit D13-B, p. 3938).


Declaration of Dr Lewis

It is my understanding that Mr. Kohberger has received several diagnoses from appropriate and qualified doctors.

Autism Spectrum Disorder, level 1, without accompanying intellectual or language impairment.

For Bryan specifically, there is objective evidence of disrupted brain structure in several nodes of the social network. As outlined in detail in Exhibit 3, volumetric analyses of magnetic resonance imaging data for Bryan’s brain reveal several brain areas to demonstrate volume within the lowest 10th percentile, as compared to all sex and age-range (+/- 5 years) matched neurotypical control subjects drawn from a normative data base of over 10,000 subjects). Of particular relevance is evidence of reduced volume for the left and right fusiform gyri, the left and right orbital frontal area, the left temporal pole, and the right anterior cingulate area, all regions within the brain’s social network.

Imaging studies also demonstrate a clear neurobiology for OCD. With disruption of the cortico-striato-thalamo-cortical loop. Importantly, this loop includes the anterior cingulate and orbital frontal cortices, regions that overlap with the neurobiology of ASDs, and which were found to be disrupted on Bryan’s MRI

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/031725-Defendants-Res-States-Motion-inLimine-Neuropsychological-Psychiatric.pdf

JMO

Thanks for that, I hadn't seen or read that particular response.

<RSBBM>

Autism Spectrum Disorder, level 1, without accompanying intellectual or language impairment.

This sentence in particular resonates with me. BK had no intellectual or language impairment as seen in his ability to finish High School, earn a Bachelors and a Masters Degree, and go on to be accepted in a Doctoral Program in Criminal Justice.

As far as BK's MRI diagnosis mapping altered/disrupted neurobiology suggesting ASD and OCD (most common psychiatric co-morbidity), I'd like to know at what age these tests were done, if any pharmaceutical aids were prescribed and how often if any follow up treatment was done.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

In M00 is wasn't strategic. In JMO it was ill advised.

Part of BK's beginning of the 'Game Playing' early on. IMO

 

[Balthazar]

Many high profile defendants have originally stood silent including:
Nikolas Cruz (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Ethan Crumbey (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Lori Vallow (found guilty, life sentence, currently on retrial as her own attorney)
Timmy Kinner (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Johnathan Daniel Renfro (Stood silent and received the DP)
Denis Radar (Stood silent, then pled guilty just as his trial was to begin in exchange for life.)
Chicago Seven (Stood silent, 2 acquitted, 5 sentenced to 5 years plus a $5,000 fine, all seven plus their attorney sentenced to prison for contempt of court.)

Now that there is mental health information in this case that BK may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition, I have wondered if AT chose to stand silent due to that. However, it is interesting to note that AT's other current DP client, Skylar Meade, also stood silent:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article290882209.html

 

[gremlin444]

Now that there is mental health information in this case that BK may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition, I have wondered if AT chose to stand silent due to that. However, it is interesting to note that AT's other current DP client, Skylar Meade, also stood silent:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article290882209.html

BK is a grad student in criminal justice. He has a bachelor's degree in psychology. He wanted to work with the police. He has a normal IQ.

He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing. His issues with WSU supposedly stemmed from his interactions with students and his advisor while being a TA, not with his academic performance in his own doctorate classes. This is literally his field of study that he has dedicated hours of his life to.

His ASD may impact his empathy, but he doesn't have to have empathy in this situation. His coursework, which we have now even seen an example of, show that he is able to breakdown facts of a murder case when presented to him, and analyze it and the consequences that will face the perpetrator.

He is uniquely placed, more so than many accused, to understand the charges against him, the seriousness of his situation, and all the information about evidence, etc.

I also don't see in what way his OCD would prevent him from having the ability to perceive the seriousness of his situation, either when he committed it or now. And trust me, after having a 22yo and a 17 yo both with OCD that started when they were 4 and 5, I have spent many hours being educated on this topic by a wide variety of mental health professionals.

If his OCD was unmedicated in the time leading up to the murders, being in jail and having psych evals would mean that if he needed medication for it, he would be getting treatment for it now. His attorneys can try for competence, but they are smart enough to know that all that does is delay thing for a time while he gets more intensive treatment to be restored to a "competent state"--and the bar is pretty low for what is considered to be competent.

IMHO, JMO, etc.

 

[schooling]

BK is a grad student in criminal justice. He has a bachelor's degree in psychology. He wanted to work with the police. He has a normal IQ.

He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing. His issues with WSU supposedly stemmed from his interactions with students and his advisor while being a TA, not with his academic performance in his own doctorate classes. This is literally his field of study that he has dedicated hours of his life to.

His ASD may impact his empathy, but he doesn't have to have empathy in this situation. His coursework, which we have now even seen an example of, show that he is able to breakdown facts of a murder case when presented to him, and analyze it and the consequences that will face the perpetrator.

He is uniquely placed, more so than many accused, to understand the charges against him, the seriousness of his situation, and all the information about evidence, etc.

I also don't see in what way his OCD would prevent him from having the ability to perceive the seriousness of his situation, either when he committed it or now. And trust me, after having a 22yo and a 17 yo both with OCD that started when they were 4 and 5, I have spent many hours being educated on this topic by a wide variety of mental health professionals.

If his OCD was unmedicated in the time leading up to the murders, being in jail and having psych evals would mean that if he needed medication for it, he would be getting treatment for it now. His attorneys can try for competence, but they are smart enough to know that all that does is delay thing for a time while he gets more intensive treatment to be restored to a "competent state"--and the bar is pretty low for what is considered to be competent.

IMHO, JMO, etc.

IMO he's mediocre by every measurement and indicator we've seen/heard/read.

Early on people had him pegged as the world's greatest computer hacker because he obtained some low level cyber crime certificate.

 

[Warwick7]

Many high profile defendants have originally stood silent including:
Nikolas Cruz (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Ethan Crumbey (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Lori Vallow (found guilty, life sentence, currently on retrial as her own attorney)
Timmy Kinner (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Johnathan Daniel Renfro (Stood silent and received the DP)
Denis Radar (Stood silent, then pled guilty just as his trial was to begin in exchange for life.)
Chicago Seven (Stood silent, 2 acquitted, 5 sentenced to 5 years plus a $5,000 fine, all seven plus their attorney sentenced to prison for contempt of court.)

Now that there is mental health information in this case that BK may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition, I have wondered if AT chose to stand silent due to that. However, it is interesting to note that AT's other current DP client, Skylar Meade, also stood silent:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article290882209.html

BBM
Well, he could perceive acquiring an associate degree in psychology. And he received a bachelor’s degree from DeSales University. Lest we forget he was a Ph.D. criminology student. Apart from that, KB also worked as a teaching assistant at Washington State University’s Pullman campus.

In M00 that takes alot of serious perceiving.

It's kinda like an oxymoron.

He studied, analyzed, examined, evaluated, tested, and was well educated. Yet, we are to believe he may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition.

That's like saying: I love apples but, I don't like them very much. JMO

 

[Boxer]

Many high profile defendants have originally stood silent including:
Nikolas Cruz (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Ethan Crumbey (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Lori Vallow (found guilty, life sentence, currently on retrial as her own attorney)
Timmy Kinner (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Johnathan Daniel Renfro (Stood silent and received the DP)
Denis Radar (Stood silent, then pled guilty just as his trial was to begin in exchange for life.)
Chicago Seven (Stood silent, 2 acquitted, 5 sentenced to 5 years plus a $5,000 fine, all seven plus their attorney sentenced to prison for contempt of court.)

Now that there is mental health information in this case that BK may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition, I have wondered if AT chose to stand silent due to that. However, it is interesting to note that AT's other current DP client, Skylar Meade, also stood silent:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article290882209.html

Wow. So standing silent is very common with serial and mass killers.

 

[NCWatcher]

BBM
Well, he could perceive acquiring an associate degree in psychology. And he received a bachelor’s degree from DeSales University. Lest we forget he was a Ph.D. criminology student. Apart from that, KB also worked as a teaching assistant at Washington State University’s Pullman campus.

In M00 that takes alot of serious perceiving.

It's kinda like an oxymoron.

He studied, analyzed, examined, evaluated, tested, and was well educated. Yet, we are to believe he may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition.

That's like saying: I love apples but, I don't like them very much. JMO

I'm not sure the apple analogy fits. I won't pretend to know what BK thinks about his situation. But I do know we may intellectually understand something about human behavior but have zero insight into our own behavior and have zero understanding of how we are perceived by others. That's true for all of us, not for only people with disorders or for people with ASD or for people who commit crimes. Higher ed may increase our intellectual understanding but often doesn't affect our self-understanding.
MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

Wow. So standing silent is very common with serial and mass killers.

I doubt many people watch and record events during trials for shoplifters or litterbugs.
MOO

 

[Warwick7]

I'm not sure the apple analogy fits. I won't pretend to know what BK thinks about his situation. But I do know we may intellectually understand something about human behavior but have zero insight into our own behavior and have zero understanding of how we are perceived by others. That's true for all of us, not for only people with disorders or for people with ASD or for people who commit crimes. Higher ed may increase our intellectual understanding but often doesn't affect our self-understanding.
MOO

I may beg to differ. Yet, I know everyone has different opinions.

As @gremlin444 stated it best: "He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing."

 

[Warwick7]

I doubt many people watch and record events during trials for shoplifters or litterbugs.
MOO

One never knows.....

 

[NCWatcher]

I may beg to differ. Yet, I know everyone has different opinions.

As @gremlin444 stated it best: "He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing."

Of course you are free to disagree. But IMO and in the results of psychology research, studying human behavior may lead to an intellectual understanding but does not necessarily lead a person to have insight into his/her own behavior. People may be drawn to study certain fields hoping to gain self-insight but that doesn't mean it happens. And it's certainly true we all have occasional "blind spots" & don't understand how we come across to others.
MOO

 

[Arkay]

He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing. His issues with WSU supposedly stemmed from his interactions with students and his advisor while being a TA, not with his academic performance in his own doctorate classes. This is literally his field of study that he has dedicated hours of his life to.

He studied, analyzed, examined, evaluated, tested, and was well educated. Yet, we are to believe he may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition.

I agree that he was well-educated enough in his field of interest to know that what he was doing was criminal. IMO his interest in Criminology was due to his morbid fascination, rather than seeking intellectual fulfillment and a promising career.

Of course I say this in hindsight, only knowing about him due to the murders.

Perhaps he began with a true enthusiam and something warped him along the way. In all honesty though, he seems to have been troubled long before this, at least judging by what he said about his lack of emotions when writing about his visual snow.

I’m not sure what the standards are for obtaining a Ph.D. in Washington State.

Here in NY, though, after achieving a Master’s and getting into a Ph.D. program, there is a LONG way to go to actually receive that degree.

Not only must the research be done, but the dissertation must be on something ORIGINAL, something which adds to the field of study. I imagine he is not the first person to have questioned criminals on how and why they committed their crimes.

Then the dissertation must be published. Finally, the candidate must orally defend his or her dissertation before a board of expert examiners, who will question and probe the research.

Naturally I don’t know Bryan, but I tend to think that if he had trouble dealing with grad students as a T.A., he might not have been able to withstand questioning from the Board of Examiners. His demeanor strikes me as someone who does not like to be challenged.

Most of my friends are full professors and they all say it’s a very rigorous process. I have two Master’s, as do most NY teachers (one required and a second for a large salary bump), and I contemplated going for a Ph.D., but realized I wasn’t up to all that research as I was divorced with a child.

We always hear that Bryan thought of himself as “the smartest man in the room.” It may or may not be true that he perceived himself that way, I wouldn’t know, but I genuinely do not regard him as any kind of genius.

The outcome seems to belie that he’s so smart, as he did indeed make enough errors to get caught.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Many high profile defendants have originally stood silent including:
Nikolas Cruz (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Ethan Crumbey (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Lori Vallow (found guilty, life sentence, currently on retrial as her own attorney)
Timmy Kinner (eventually pled guilty in exchange for life sentence)
Johnathan Daniel Renfro (Stood silent and received the DP)
Denis Radar (Stood silent, then pled guilty just as his trial was to begin in exchange for life.)
Chicago Seven (Stood silent, 2 acquitted, 5 sentenced to 5 years plus a $5,000 fine, all seven plus their attorney sentenced to prison for contempt of court.)

Now that there is mental health information in this case that BK may not perceive the seriousness of his situation due to his condition, I have wondered if AT chose to stand silent due to that. However, it is interesting to note that AT's other current DP client, Skylar Meade, also stood silent:

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article290882209.html

Thank you for helping to make my point. It's not something an innocent person usually does. Renfro's case, in particular, is interesting.

Do you think BK will be allowed to plead out right before trial?

 

[10ofRods]

BK is a grad student in criminal justice. He has a bachelor's degree in psychology. He wanted to work with the police. He has a normal IQ.

He has literally studied the consequences of crimes and their punishments for several years now. Years of factual studies showing the results of crime and even the specific kinds of crime that he is accused of committing. His issues with WSU supposedly stemmed from his interactions with students and his advisor while being a TA, not with his academic performance in his own doctorate classes. This is literally his field of study that he has dedicated hours of his life to.

His ASD may impact his empathy, but he doesn't have to have empathy in this situation. His coursework, which we have now even seen an example of, show that he is able to breakdown facts of a murder case when presented to him, and analyze it and the consequences that will face the perpetrator.

He is uniquely placed, more so than many accused, to understand the charges against him, the seriousness of his situation, and all the information about evidence, etc.

I also don't see in what way his OCD would prevent him from having the ability to perceive the seriousness of his situation, either when he committed it or now. And trust me, after having a 22yo and a 17 yo both with OCD that started when they were 4 and 5, I have spent many hours being educated on this topic by a wide variety of mental health professionals.

If his OCD was unmedicated in the time leading up to the murders, being in jail and having psych evals would mean that if he needed medication for it, he would be getting treatment for it now. His attorneys can try for competence, but they are smart enough to know that all that does is delay thing for a time while he gets more intensive treatment to be restored to a "competent state"--and the bar is pretty low for what is considered to be competent.

IMHO, JMO, etc.

He also has VSS, which is associated with certain mental health symptoms (derealization and depersonalization, which he describes very well in those forum posts from when he was 14). Newer research seems to implicate VSS in certain cross-brain functions. There are theories about drug use and the onset of VSS, and some researchers are comparing it to a hallucinatory disorder.

https://www.brainstimjrnl.com/article/S1935-861X(23)01980-0/fulltext

Alice in Wonderland Syndrome (AIWS): prevalence and characteristics in adults with migraine - Journal of Neurology

Objective Alice in Wonderland Syndrome (AIWS) is a sensory disorder characterized by a distorted somatosensory and/or visual perception. Additionally, distortion of time perception and symptoms of derealization/depersonalization may occur. AIWS is frequently associated with migraine. However...

link.springer.com

At least, he says he has VSS.

 

[itsdev]

Last night I watched a 3 episode documentary about Grant Amato called Ctrl + Alt + Desire on Paramount plus. Even though the 3 people murdered in that case were related to Grant, I cannot help but draw parallels in their behaviors even though Grant appears to be way more chatty then BK. It is really well done and I highly recommend it and would love to hear anyone's thoughts if they do watch it!

 

[Boxer]

Last night I watched a 3 episode documentary about Grant Amato called Ctrl + Alt + Desire on Paramount plus. Even though the 3 people murdered in that case were related to Grant, I cannot help but draw parallels in their behaviors even though Grant appears to be way more chatty then BK. It is really well done and I highly recommend it and would love to hear anyone's thoughts if they do watch it!

Looked it up. Ugly.

 

[gremlin444]

He also has VSS, which is associated with certain mental health symptoms (derealization and depersonalization, which he describes very well in those forum posts from when he was 14). Newer research seems to implicate VSS in certain cross-brain functions. There are theories about drug use and the onset of VSS, and some researchers are comparing it to a hallucinatory disorder.

IMHO, JMO, YMMV, alphabet soup coming:

Yup, and I'm sure it was a contributing factor in why he chose to major in psychology for his BA and probably even the reason for choosing criminal justice. Trying to understand himself. Perhaps hoping that working in CJ would also help him control any criminal urges he felt in himself...and give him a structure to live within since he couldn't be in the military.

BK's OCD, DP/DR and ASD were likely factors that led to him seeking out and being fairly successful in structured situations. Living at home during his AA, BA, and MA kept his stress levels in check, reduced some of the responsibilities that many people his age would have been dealing with (dorm/roommates, apartment & neighbors, shared laundry facilities, grocery shopping, car maintenance, etc) because Mom and Dad were there to help and act as buffers. That freed up the "coping" energy he needed to be mostly successful in his college career (and virtual school during Covid definitely helped). Working in the same school where he went to high school and his mom worked (and maybe dad) was also a safe & familiar environment for him. The teachers and staff there knew him, and they knew his oddities and quirks. And Mom could always help smooth over any snags with her coworkers/the school.

I don't feel that his VSS fell into the category of hallucinatory disorder, esp given that he was able to get a driver's license. There is such a wide variety of VSS and the severity can also vary through the person's life. Given the Tapatalk posts about his nighttime roamings, I suspect he was visually more comfortable at night. I'd love to know from those who knew him in HS/college in PA if he was known to always wear dark sunglasses in sunlight.

I do not believe that any of his various disorders cause(d) him not to be able to understand the seriousness of crimes as they pertained to himself. He had his CJ studies, years of it. Between his time in rehab, his arrest for stealing his sister's phone, his traffic violations, etc. he had direct experience with the police and authority. Heck, he threatened his dad to not call the police when he stole his sister's iPhone--he wouldn't do that if he didn't understand seriousness and consequences.

And he also had found that he did have the ability to talk himself out of things, like with the 3 tickets we know he dodged (and I suspect there are others). And that is what I see his reported behavior when he was arrested by SWAT in PA as--a very Ted Bundyish method of attempting to ingratiate himself with the police, an attempt to establish that he was practically just like them because he too was part of the criminal justice world (Bundy used this all the time, talking about his law studies and his work at the suicide hotline to establish he was on the right side of the law).

Do I think he would be an awful witness at his trial--absolutely! Do I think he is a nightmare client to work with--you bet! Is it all due to his ASD and other disorders or is it ego or is it everything all together--impossible to untangle.

I'm fine with dropping DP to LWOP. In many ways I think it would make this trial easier. I know it wouldn't make SG and some of the other family members happy. I do think in the long run it would make life easier for them---far less years of endless appeals.

But I do not believe that the evidence shows that BK is a person who is unable to understand the consequences of his actions. I think she is using very broad characteristics of these disorders and applying them to BK. Impulse control, sure...but we've also know he was able to lose a ton of weight through strict exercise and a very regimented diet. Poor planning skills/executive function--in some situations, yes....but again the diet and exercise show he can come up with a plan and adhere to it in the long term. And the homework assignment shows a strong ability in that circumstance to come up with a very detailed plan of how to process a murder scene and what to look for.

AT has to fight for her client--I get it. It's becoming obvious the defense doesn't have a lot work with, so they are using what they can. But in these filings she is painting an overly simplistic picture of a poor Brian that also plays into some general stereotypes of people with ASD/OCD. He can't be the killer--because as a child he had fine motor control issues! And how could he possibly plan a crime like this (we see where he made mistakes)? He doesn't get the seriousness because he talked to the cop about getting coffee (because he knew he had left his sheath, therefore his DNA might be on it, and it's going to be hard for him to argue his innocence regarding that on the spur of the moment, so acting normal and identifying himself with the police/CJ is the best he can do in the moment).

BK is a complex human being who is more than the sum of the broad stripes of his various diagnosis.

IMO, JMO, etc.