4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

[Boxer]

Other than the rocking, I raised a kid with all of those special needs. Classified with an IEP. I’m sure many of us are, have family, or know someone who checks all of those boxes. How can a defense attorney argue the point of how he is viewed in the courtroom (that’s a basic jury instruction!), or that he is somehow ineligible for the death penalty? I hated the way BK was depicted yesterday, as if somehow he isn’t as culpable due to a misdiagnosis.

Next she is going roll him into court in a wheelchair like the GSK who rode a motorcycle home just before he got arrested, then he was disabled and could not walk anymore.

 

[Sachi]

I agree that AT does not want him formally tested. I think she knows that even if he is found to be somewhere on the spectrum, there might be other diagnoses within a cluster. Some that could indicate a tendency towards this kind of violent behaviour perhaps?

this makes sense because otherwise she would have gotten him tested by now ,right? Especially if she could count on a diagnosis to rule out DP such as Lori Vallow Daybell.

 

[sassyblue]

this makes sense because otherwise she would have gotten him tested by now ,right? Especially if she could count on a diagnosis to rule out DP such as Lori Vallow Daybell.

Lori didn't escape the death penalty in Idaho because of a mental disorder.

She never waived her right to a speedy trial then she did her goddess routine complete with a portal to visit her partner god, Chad and had to be mentally evaluated.

That took awhile plus the prosecutors were delayed with discovery because there was such a vast amount of evidence to go thru.

That is how the death penalty was dismissed. Idaho has no insanity defense...hence the ASD claim from Kohberger's defense. They're trying to do an end run.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am.struggling to understand how they can state so specifically about him having autism if they haven't tested him. Surely that is lying?

Autism is a clinical diagnosis in many cases. It doesn't always require formalized testing.

 

[sunshineray]

But the time frame differs. Competency is concerned with functioning at the time of the trial, not at the time of the crime. Insanity is an issue at the time of the crime. That's a pretty simple concept too but is critically important.

Further, understanding that the act of murder is wrong doesn't mean much in terms of insanity. For instance, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children and was found not guilty by reason of insanity during her 2nd trial in 2006. She was suffering from extreme postpartum psychotic depression & believed by killing her children she was saving their souls and sending them to heaven as innocents. She felt their souls would be eternally damaged by living with her as a mother because she believed she was an evil terrible person. I suspect she would have said murder is wrong but didn't consider what she did as murder. On the other hand, someone with fairly severe dementia may also say he knows murder is wrong but appears to have forgotten he is alleged to have murdered his wife as he keeps asking where she is. Clearly he can't aid in his own defense nor does he understand the charges against him.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But neither competency nor insanity is evaluated by the judge asking the defendant to answer yes or no to a question like do you know Act X (whatever the charge is) is a crime and is wrong?

MOO

Yes we disagree.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Many of these should fall under an IEP IF he had a diagnosis. But picking this apart:

Very early in his education he was treated as a child with special needs
Treated as? By what definition?

evaluated psychologically
And the results were? I see no test results.

, and provided with instructional support.
As are a multitude of children not defined with "Special Needs".

All of these below are buzzwords, not an official evaluation. Sounds like report card notes.

He was observed as “rocking” in the classroom
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" . And yes, I know rocking vs rocking. I had plenty of teachers try to call my own behavior "rocking" when I just needed to go to the bathroom and was denied.

inattentive
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

and he had poor fine motor skills.
Not ASD specific. More like Dyspraxia.

He received reading support,
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia.

speech therapy,
As do a multitude of children with only speech problems.

reminders to stay on tasks
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

more time for homework
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia

and organizational support. "
As do a multitude of children just in general.

My classrooms growing up, and the ones I helped in with my kids growing up, did not have perfectly behaved, never moving children who were always on task, finished their homework on time every time, and could organize their desk or backpack more than shoving the papers in. The children who could do all that were the anomalies, not the average, until around 4th grade. The average kid was hit or miss on some things different days.

If BK had a 504 or IEP, then I'd say he might have had "Special Needs". But "Special Needs" is not ASD. If he was never diagnosed, then there is no grounds for telling the jury anything at all. EVER. I'd be spending some time and money on an official diagnosis, if they can get one.

Admittedly, I haven't kept up with every post in this thread or all the hearings, so I don't know what's been submitted or not. But what you're posting seems to be someone's interpretation of what they read in a medical chart.

Is there some reason to believe there isn't a medical record that has not been released to the public that may or may not include ASD evaluation? You don't need "testing" to make the diagnosis of ASD. You just need an evaluation with certain objective assessments. Testing becomes important if the diagnosis is ambiguous or includes a number of co-morbidities that need to be accounted for. Otherwise, an evaluation by an expert -- psychologist, psychiatrist, or behavioral neurologist -- is sufficient.

 

[Megnut]

Autism is a clinical diagnosis in many cases. It doesn't always require formalized testing.

I think this is where the problem for AT lies.

Reading/hearing between the lines/words, it sounds like AT's own experts couldn't/didn't diagnose BK with ASD. In fact, one said it appeared BK was trying to distort/manipulate/exaggerate. The most AT could get was that maybe BK should have/could have/would have been diagnosed with ASD as a child, except he apparently wasn't. So she's relying on (paying for) an expert to diagnose young BK. Thereby dodging a current diagnosis which the State could challenge.

It's a short dart on a long yard because there isn't case law that protect individuals with ASD from the DP. So even if she had/has a legitimate diagnosis, I'm not sure what it gets her.

JMO

 

[jepop]

I think it is significant and revealing, that Sy Ray did not actually testify. He had the perfect opportunity to do so when Judge H asked AT "what evidence do you have of the TA records?"

AT could have easily said we have that evidence and are prepared right now to offer it to the court. Easy Peasy. But that never happened. Makes me think Sy Ray doesn't have any evidence behind his serious accusations.

A few times he said ' I'll take that under advisement, but he had made previous comments that showed he was not convinced, so it may not go the D's way. IMO

Just for clarity, it was Hippler's call not to have witness testimony at the MIL hearing. From memory he made an order in this regard and asked that the parties submit affidavits which would be more than adequate for the purposes of the hearing. AT had her witnesses available via zoom, in case the judge chose to allow them to testify for clarification purposes. Something like that was also in his prior order IIRC.

 

[Boxer]

Just for clarity, it was Hippler's call not to have witness testimony at the MIL hearing. From memory he made an order in this regard and asked that the parties submit affidavits which would be more than adequate for the purposes of the hearing. AT had her witnesses available via zoom, in case the judge chose to allow them to testify for clarification purposes. Something like that was also in his prior order IIRC.

Until they offer evidence why should Sy Ray testify. Just air time if there is no evidence.

 

[jepop]

Until they offer evidence why should Sy Ray testify. Just air time if there is no evidence.

Agree and that's the reasoning behind Hippler's order and also why he refused to have Sy Ray testify via zoom the other day, imo. Sy Ray's affidavit lacked the evidence required to support his accusations. Sy Ray did not address the 7 day retention period in his sworn affidavit. That's the defense's and Ray's problem. It's not the business of the court to waste more of its time of over Sy Ray's deficiencies. Jmo

 

[Sundog]

Exactly, it would take a severe diagnosis to get him a not guilty verdict, imo.

Here is a recent example of an autistic man, committing mass murder, and trying to use autism as a legal excuse. It didnt work:

Toronto Van Attacker Found Guilty in City’s Worst Mass Killing (Published 2021)

The defendant was convicted of murder and attempted murder for killing 10 people and injuring 16 when he mounted the curb of a busy sidewalk in a van in 2018.

www.nytimes.com

TORONTO — The man who used his rental van as a weapon on a busy Toronto sidewalk in 2018, killing 10 people and badly injuring 16 in the city’s worst mass killing, was found guilty of murder and attempted murder by an Ontario judge on Wednesday.

Rejecting the novel argument that his autism spectrum disorder rendered him not criminally responsible, Justice Anne Molloy of the Ontario Superior Court ruled that the defendant, Alek Minassian, understood clearly what he was doing, despite the conclusion of some experts that he was incapable of feeling empathy because of his neurodevelopmental disorder.

“This was the exercise of free will by a rational brain, capable of choosing between right and wrong,” said Justice Molloy, who throughout her verdict refused to identify the defendant by name, instead calling him “John Doe,” as she did not want indulge the fame he desired.

“It does not matter that he does not have remorse, nor empathize with the victims,” the judge said.

But Canada doesn't have the death penalty, so the stakes aren't as high in this case as they are for BK's defense team. AT has to be looking ahead to the penalty phase and it makes sense that she would want to introduce these mitigating circumstances even at the onset of the guilt phase of the trial, in order to begin to plant these seeds of mitigating factors in the minds of the jurors. Her ultimate goal might be to influence the penalty phase and try to avoid the death penalty. But why save the introduction of any mitigating factors until then, it makes sense for the defense team to introduce them early on.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Admittedly, I haven't kept up with every post in this thread or all the hearings, so I don't know what's been submitted or not. But what you're posting seems to be someone's interpretation of what they read in a medical chart.

Is there some reason to believe there isn't a medical record that has not been released to the public that may or may not include ASD evaluation? You don't need "testing" to make the diagnosis of ASD. You just need an evaluation with certain objective assessments. Testing becomes important if the diagnosis is ambiguous or includes a number of co-morbidities that need to be accounted for. Otherwise, an evaluation by an expert -- psychologist, psychiatrist, or behavioral neurologist -- is sufficient.

Interesting. This is not at all what I have experienced. Every person I have been involved with was evaluated with tests, not just observations. Each individual had to answer questions, perform tasks, interact, other diagnostic tests and were marked with numerical results on a scale that looked like this, where the center line was 0, and the numbers went up or down on each side |__________________|___________________|. Each test had a different numerical score that had different weights to the diagnosis. Everything was called an assessment, examination or test and they all are synonyms for each other. I would be interested to learn more on how a diagnosis can be made without such tests for someone who is in the high functioning side of Autism.

This information given also sounds like something out of a written diagnosis for various conditions that would facilitate an IEP in school, but the language is just a list of the buzzwords you need to get an IEP (Lesson learned for one of my children in elementary school and several others who needed help).

The hearing, if you have time to listen to it, did not disclose that was any kind of medical document or diagnosis and in fact said everything except that there WAS any confirmed diagnosis. If you had one, you would think you would bring up that there was a diagnosis and provide the paperwork. If defense has one, the judge and prosecution seem to know nothing about it.

 

[QB2022]

Autism is a clinical diagnosis in many cases. It doesn't always require formalized testing.

That isn't quite what I mean. To say someone has autism they need to meet the diagnostic criteria accross the triad of impairments. If he hasn't had a formal assessment for autism then they cant just say he has autism as fact.

 

[NCWatcher]

Interesting. This is not at all what I have experienced. Every person I have been involved with was evaluated with tests, not just observations. Each individual had to answer questions, perform tasks, interact, other diagnostic tests and were marked with numerical results on a scale that looked like this, where the center line was 0, and the numbers went up or down on each side |__________________|___________________|. Each test had a different numerical score that had different weights to the diagnosis. Everything was called an assessment, examination or test and they all are synonyms for each other. I would be interested to learn more on how a diagnosis can be made without such tests for someone who is in the high functioning side of Autism.

This information given also sounds like something out of a written diagnosis for various conditions that would facilitate an IEP in school, but the language is just a list of the buzzwords you need to get an IEP (Lesson learned for one of my children in elementary school and several others who needed help).

The hearing, if you have time to listen to it, did not disclose that was any kind of medical document or diagnosis and in fact said everything except that there WAS any confirmed diagnosis. If you had one, you would think you would bring up that there was a diagnosis and provide the paperwork. If defense has one, the judge and prosecution seem to know nothing about it.

I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis. There are, however, many disorders that require tests to rule out other causes. For example, poor academic performance might be due to the presence of a learning disorder. But problems with vision and/or hearing could cause poor academic performance too and must be ruled out. Poor academic performance could also be caused by the disorder of Intellectual Disability (formerly called Mental Retardation) While a standardized IQ test is used in the diagnosis of ID, it cannot be used for diagnosis by itself. Aspects of adaptive functioning must also be assessed, often through observation.

Per the CDC "Diagnosing autism spectrum disorder (ASD) can be difficult because there is no medical test, such as a blood test, to diagnose the disorder. Doctors look at the child's developmental history and behavior to make a diagnosis."

Screening for Autism Spectrum Disorder

Screening and diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.

www.cdc.gov

The DSM-5 criteria for autism spectrum disorder can be found here. (DSM-5-TR clarification to the diagnostic criteria included changing "manifested by the following” to “as manifested by all of the following.")

Autism diagnostic criteria: DSM-5 | Autism Speaks

Read the full text for the diagnostic criteria of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5).

www.autismspeaks.org

While a particular ASD evaluator might use a "screening test" and include mention of it in his/her report, the idea that BK should have been "tested" for autism as a child doesn't really make sense to me regardless of AT's motivation. In looking at the diagnostic criteria it's hard to imagine a test or even a series of tests given to a young child that could substitute for observation of his behavior in various situations.
MOO

 

[QB2022]

I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis. There are, however, many disorders that require tests to rule out other causes. For example, poor academic performance might be due to the presence of a learning disorder. But problems with vision and/or hearing could cause poor academic performance too and must be ruled out. Poor academic performance could also be caused by the disorder of Intellectual Disability (formerly called Mental Retardation) While a standardized IQ test is used in the diagnosis of ID, it cannot be used for diagnosis by itself. Aspects of adaptive functioning must also be assessed, often through observation.

Per the CDC "Diagnosing autism spectrum disorder (ASD) can be difficult because there is no medical test, such as a blood test, to diagnose the disorder. Doctors look at the child's developmental history and behavior to make a diagnosis."

Screening for Autism Spectrum Disorder

Screening and diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.

www.cdc.gov

The DSM-5 criteria for autism spectrum disorder can be found here. (DSM-5-TR clarification to the diagnostic criteria included changing "manifested by the following” to “as manifested by all of the following.")

Autism diagnostic criteria: DSM-5 | Autism Speaks

Read the full text for the diagnostic criteria of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5).

www.autismspeaks.org

While a particular ASD evaluator might use a "screening test" and include mention of it in his/her report, the idea that BK should have been "tested" for autism as a child doesn't really make sense to me regardless of AT's motivation. In looking at the diagnostic criteria it's hard to imagine a test or even a series of tests given to a young child that could substitute for observation of his behavior in various situations.
MOO

The ADOS is a very standard test for autism. A Brief Overview of the ADOS-2: An Assessment for Autism Spectrum Disorder - Children's Resource Group - A Multi-Specialty Behavioral Health Practice yes, it is observation based but very standardised and specifically looking for certain things during standardised activities. Then each part is given a score and a score above a certain cut off indicates autism.

This is usually alongside other things, such as the ADI-R which is a standardized interview questionaire used to diagnose autism and distinguish it from other developmental disorders.

Both my children as part of their autism diagnoses had an ADOS, ADI-R and a more semi-formal speech and language assessment looking at their higher level language abilities accross a series of tests.

 

[NCWatcher]

The ADOS is a very standard test for autism. A Brief Overview of the ADOS-2: An Assessment for Autism Spectrum Disorder - Children's Resource Group - A Multi-Specialty Behavioral Health Practice yes, it is observation based but very standardised and specifically looking for certain things during standardised activities. Then each part is given a score and a score above a certain cut off indicates autism.

This is usually alongside other things, such as the ADI-R which is a standardized interview questionaire used to diagnose autism and distinguish it from other developmental disorders.

Both my children as part of their autism diagnoses had an ADOS, ADI-R and a more semi-formal speech and language assessment looking at their higher level language abilities accross a series of tests.

The ADOS can be used be used to guide observations And it can be useful to have a standard way of doing some observations. But I don't consider it a "test." Perhaps that's a matter of semantics. Certainly though, it's not THE test in the sense that it can't be used alone.

The link you provided states [italics added] "It is important to know that it [the ADOS] is just one source of information and is not on its own sufficient for making a diagnosis of ASD. The ADOS-2 should always be part of a comprehensive evaluation that considers a person’s developmental history, information provided by parents and other key informants, behavioral observations both during and outside of the ADOS-2 administration, and the judgement of experienced clinicians."
MOO

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think we may have a difference of what "test" means. I was not referring to medical tests at all. What QB2022 said is what I was referring to. They even call it ADOS-2 Testing. (See the word test?)

ADOS-2 Testing for Autism Diagnosis

The ADOS-2 test for autism is a series of behavior tests considered the "gold standard" by professionals dealing with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Learn more.

www.abacenters.com

Some use the word "evaluation" which is a synonym for "test". My experience was that the child was observed under specific circumstances and scored on their responses. Example: invited to sit at a table with an assortment of age appropriate toys. What do they do?

When they were checking my own son for asd, they gave him some cookies, then asked me to come into the room for a "break". My son immediately offered me one of his cookies. It was a test to see what he would do. (Not asd in his case, though his teachers were convinced he was).

Point being, if defense had a diagnosis, don't you think they be waving the paperwork around? Instead, they talk around it with buzzwords.

 

[NCWatcher]

I think we may have a difference of what "test" means. I was not referring to medical tests at all. What QB2022 said is what I was referring to. They even call it ADOS-2 Testing. (See the word test?)

ADOS-2 Testing for Autism Diagnosis

The ADOS-2 test for autism is a series of behavior tests considered the "gold standard" by professionals dealing with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Learn more.

www.abacenters.com

Some use the word "evaluation" which is a synonym for "test". My experience was that the child was observed under specific circumstances and scored on their responses. Example: invited to sit at a table with an assortment of age appropriate toys. What do they do?

When they were checking my own son for asd, they gave him some cookies, then asked me to come into the room for a "break". My son immediately offered me one of his cookies. It was a test to see what he would do. (Not asd in his case, though his teachers were convinced he was).

Point being, if defense had a diagnosis, don't you think they be waving the paperwork around? Instead, they talk around it with buzzwords.

I am not sure everyone considers "evaluation" to be a synonym for "test." To me, saying X should be evaluated for Y is not the same thing as saying X should be tested for Y. Perhaps it means the same thing to you.

Regardless, I don't know what the defense has or doesn't have. Nor do I know what they are trying to to prove re: ASD. None of us really know. We may have opinions but opinions aren't facts.

My point in posting was not to make any claim about what the defense may or may not have. My point was, just as the CDC and @BeginnerSleuther have said, there is no "test for autism" regardless of what a company may call the assessment device it sells. But multiple posters keep saying BK should have been "tested for autism."
MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If AT really thinks BK has ASD, why wouldn't she track down a doctor who will say so? Not an supposition that maybe he would have been diagnosed as such as a gradeschooler, but an actual adult diagnosis so she can go hard at labeling it a mitigating disorder?

Because she can't. Or she would.

She's walking a tightrope.

JMO

100% this

She's either had him fully diagnosed across the board and it's come up with multiple other co-morbidities that work against her defence. Or she hasn't had him diagnosed at all.

It is entirely possible to be singularly assessed, late in life, for ASD alone. This would take into account childhood behaviour and reports of struggles or differences in childhood. So that does sound legit. However, that being the case then she would need to present the report. As we know not all high functioning ASD cases are the same traits, it is a spectrum indeed. I think if she presented a Psych evaluation report it would lay the grounds for Prosecution to demand a fully rounded evaluation taking into account every personality disorder too.

For me, my ASD Level 1 affects me as a sensory and data processing difference - the hierarchy of how I process the world around me and incoming information is radically different than an average person. For this reason, I could never safely drive a car. If BK were similarly affected as me, he wouldn't be such a long time driver.

However, nobody would notice that I'm particularly 'odd' maybe just seem eccentric or unusual now and then and personally there's a lot of things I can't cope with that others wouldn't realise. I've never murdered anyone and never wanted to or even so much as thought about it. ASD does absolutely not mean lack of empathy. That's sociopathy / antisocial personality disorder / psychopathy. People with ASD usually feel things so deeply it affects their ability to function, causes distress, and maybe expressing that is different but it's most definitely there - hence why animals are often drawn to the vibrational gentle energy of those with ASD. Also most people I know of with ASD of any level are obsessed with things being truthful and couldn't lie if you paid them to.

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I am not sure everyone considers "evaluation" to be a synonym for "test." To me, saying X should be evaluated for Y is not the same thing as saying X should be tested for Y. Perhaps it means the same thing to you.

Regardless, I don't know what the defense has or doesn't have. Nor do I know what they are trying to to prove re: ASD. None of us really know. We may have opinions but opinions aren't facts.

My point in posting was not to make any claim about what the defense may or may not have. My point was, just as the CDC and @BeginnerSleuther have said, there is no "test for autism" regardless of what a company may call the assessment device it sells. But multiple posters keep saying BK should have been "tested for autism."
MOO

There are tests for autism conducted by Psychiatrists assisted by Psychologists with specialist training. It's a discrete tests and isn't covering other issues such as co-morbid personality disorders or PTSD or addiction etc.