4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

[BeginnerSleuther]

Interesting. This is not at all what I have experienced. Every person I have been involved with was evaluated with tests, not just observations.

It's not just tests vs observations. There are evaluations, which is how the majority of mental health conditions are made. Evaluations include scales and tests, but not neuropsych testing.

Each individual had to answer questions, perform tasks, interact, other diagnostic tests and were marked with numerical results on a scale that looked like this, where the center line was 0, and the numbers went up or down on each side |__________________|___________________|. Each test had a different numerical score that had different weights to the diagnosis. Everything was called an assessment, examination or test and they all are synonyms for each other. I would be interested to learn more on how a diagnosis can be made without such tests for someone who is in the high functioning side of Autism.

It sounds like what they received was neuropsychological testing, which is formalized testing that is pretty broad and looks for any number of conditions. An autism assessment is focused just on the symptoms and characteristics of autism, which are pretty standardized in the medical literature and in the DSM. Scales and psychometric tests can help in terms of specific symptomotology, but these are typically administered by the patient's provider during routine diagnostic visits and the results of these would be included in the regular medical record and visit notes. Neuropsychological testing is more formal and tests all domains to diagnoses a range of mental health and neurological conditions. While this report would also be scanned into the medical record, it's a standalone report completed by an independent practitioner (usually PhD level neuropsychologist) rather than the patient's own provider.

This information given also sounds like something out of a written diagnosis for various conditions that would facilitate an IEP in school, but the language is just a list of the buzzwords you need to get an IEP (Lesson learned for one of my children in elementary school and several others who needed help).

The hearing, if you have time to listen to it, did not disclose that was any kind of medical document or diagnosis and in fact said everything except that there WAS any confirmed diagnosis. If you had one, you would think you would bring up that there was a diagnosis and provide the paperwork. If defense has one, the judge and prosecution seem to know nothing about it.

I will never diagnose an individual I have never met. I will say that a diagnosis in some cases is, IMO, moot. Just my personal opinion based only on what has been reported in MSM.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am not sure everyone considers "evaluation" to be a synonym for "test." To me, saying X should be evaluated for Y is not the same thing as saying X should be tested for Y. Perhaps it means the same thing to you.

Regardless, I don't know what the defense has or doesn't have. Nor do I know what they are trying to to prove re: ASD. None of us really know. We may have opinions but opinions aren't facts.

My point in posting was not to make any claim about what the defense may or may not have. My point was, just as the CDC and @BeginnerSleuther have said, there is no "test for autism" regardless of what a company may call the assessment device it sells. But multiple posters keep saying BK should have been "tested for autism."
MOO

This exactly. A "test" isn't necessary and many people get the diagnosis without any tests whatsoever.

 

[Miss Poovy]

And the Defense could stipulate that, in the matter of Amazon, BK's searches and purchases were his alone, because ultimately no one (read: no juror) is going to believe they weren't BK's, and right on down the line. If BK's family has to be called to testify IMO, it'll only be because the Defense forced them to. Same way we see trials stretched beyond everyone's yawn with chain of custody testimony, every last hand, every swab, when by stipulation, much of that could be compressed.

The State has its case but IMO it's always the Defense who sets the pace/length of the trial. This judge wants both sides to work together, to find agreement.

Like we see with the mixture of DNA under MM nails. It has virtually no evidentiary value and there's really no good reason to waste the jury's time with it.

Chess moves.

What would AT rather? BK with a full gallery behind him, his family lined up like a Norman Rockwell painting, giving the appearance of their support and his innocence? Or them on the stand, testifying for the State that they searched for no knives, purchased no knives on the family Amazon account?

Weak argument anyway. BK may be better served by the optics (family support) and stipulate to evidence his family members would otherwise be called to give.

JMO

I agree. From past posts re BK stealing a phone & his Dad calling him on it, his Dad (and rest of family) may be basically honest folks. Hopefully, they won’t be put in the position of testifying.

 

[Megnut]

I just want to throw this in here before I forget.
Regarding BK not having fine motor movements.
I would think it requires fine motor movements to put heroin on a spoon, heat it up, use a syringe and needle to draw it up and especially to inject yourself with it. Especially when using drugs for any length of time and veins get harder to find.

BK's drug use

Jeremy Saba, a neighbor two houses from Kohberger’s childhood home, was part of that group and introduced Kohberger to heroin, Baylis, Casey and Thomas Arntz said. Saba and Kohberger can be seen together in a photo that Saba posted on Facebook in August 2016 — four months after Saba was arrested and charged with a DUI and misdemeanor possession of drug paraphernalia. He later pleaded guilty to both charges, according to Pennsylvania court records.


“I didn’t like him personally because he got my boy into heroin,” Baylis said by phone, mentioning his falling out with Kohberger for several years over his drug issues. “I think drugs goofed him pretty bad. He was having a time. He’d tell me, ‘I’m clean now, I’m totally clean now,’ and he’d have bleeding track marks” on his arms.

Oh, boy, if AT opens the door to BK's fine motor skills...

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think we may have a difference of what "test" means. I was not referring to medical tests at all. What QB2022 said is what I was referring to. They even call it ADOS-2 Testing. (See the word test?)

ADOS-2 Testing for Autism Diagnosis

The ADOS-2 test for autism is a series of behavior tests considered the "gold standard" by professionals dealing with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Learn more.

www.abacenters.com

That website calling it a "test" is inaccurate in the way you're (I think) meaning it. They're using it very casually because people understand "test" vs diagnostic instrument needed for evaluation.

Google the ADOS-2 and the first thing you'll see on Google AI is:

"The ADOS-2 (Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule, Second Edition) is a standardized, semi-structured assessment tool used by professionals to evaluate individuals for autism spectrum disorder (ASD), focusing on observing and coding behaviors related to social interaction, communication, and repetitive behaviors"

Here is a link to a more reputable article. You won't see the word "test" anywhere.

The Accuracy of the ADOS-2 in Identifying Autism among Adults with Complex Psychiatric Conditions - PMC

The Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule, Second Edition (ADOS-2), Module 4 is considered a “gold-standard” instrument for diagnosing autism spectrum disorder (ASD) in adults. Although the ADOS-2 shows good sensitivity and specificity in lab-based ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The ADOS-2 is a widely used, semi-structured assessment tool that allows systematic and standardized evaluation of the presence of ASD symptoms."

"To this end, the performance of diagnostic instruments like the ADOS-2"

"While insufficient on its own for a diagnosis, the ADOS-2 is considered the field’s “gold-standard” for collecting standardized and objective information about social communication skills, restricted interests, and repetitive behaviors."

Further, have you seen the ADOS-2? It's essentially assessing the very symptoms listed in the DSM. The reason for that is because it's part of an ASD evaluation, not some standalone test that we give to say someone is or isn't on the autism spectrum.

Some use the word "evaluation" which is a synonym for "test".

Not in medicine. I can evaluate someone's blood pressure, but I don't "test" anyone's blood pressure. I can test someone's blood sugar, but I don't evaluate their blood sugar (I evaluate their health, using their blood sugar as one consideration). An evaluation may include tests, but it doesn't have to. A test won't include an evaluation since the test is supposed to be an independent and objective reference point.

My experience was that the child was observed under specific circumstances and scored on their responses. Example: invited to sit at a table with an assortment of age appropriate toys. What do they do?

Well, that is definitely NOT universal testing for ASD and definitely not needed. It may be useful only in small children.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

Yes, and I noticed his chair was not lowered as low as it was in the previous hearing. It was still lower than the adjacent, smiling attorney, but not ridiculously so. IMO, the defense must be reading what we've been discussing.

As long as AT doesn't have him wear a sweater over that shirt! That Menendez brothers look is passe.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think this is where the problem for AT lies.

Reading/hearing between the lines/words, it sounds like AT's own experts couldn't/didn't diagnose BK with ASD. In fact, one said it appeared BK was trying to distort/manipulate/exaggerate. The most AT could get was that maybe BK should have/could have/would have been diagnosed with ASD as a child, except he apparently wasn't. So she's relying on (paying for) an expert to diagnose young BK. Thereby dodging a current diagnosis which the State could challenge.

BBMFF

Well, if one did get a diagnosis in childhood, it wouldn't go away. ASD symptoms may improve with skill-learning, but the neurological condition wouldn't suddenly go away. If he gets a diagnosis at an adult, it also means he had it as a child as ASD doesn't just appear in adulthood.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Oh, boy, if AT opens the door to BK's fine motor skills...

Yes, and if so, the prosecution can counter in part with that adept selfie taken by their client IIUC shortly after the murders. The one where ear buds are worn, he is confidently or assuredly taking it before a mirror, with a ‘thumbs up’ depicted, and IMO he elicits a subtle smile or smirk. There might also have been a question as to which hand that image was taken with IIUC? A lot of dexterity shown by the suspect in that image IMO.

<modsnip>

 

[INfisherman]

As long as AT doesn't have him wear a sweater over that shirt! That Menendez brothers look is passe.

No worries. The Garanimal tags will ensure the clothes match.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I corrected my post… to focus on “behavioral appearance” which is why was trying to say. Sorry if caused offence.

No offense taken from you. That wasn't my meaning.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

100% this

She's either had him fully diagnosed across the board and it's come up with multiple other co-morbidities that work against her defence. Or she hasn't had him diagnosed at all.

It is entirely possible to be singularly assessed, late in life, for ASD alone. This would take into account childhood behaviour and reports of struggles or differences in childhood. So that does sound legit. However, that being the case then she would need to present the report. As we know not all high functioning ASD cases are the same traits, it is a spectrum indeed. I think if she presented a Psych evaluation report it would lay the grounds for Prosecution to demand a fully rounded evaluation taking into account every personality disorder too.

SBMFF

Personality disorders are not to be used in forensic evaluations. The DSM, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Psychological Association are very clear about this. If they are used, I'd argue that would be significant grounds for appeal.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Bryan Kohberger has autism. His attorneys say the diagnosis should remove death penalty

His attorneys argued that there is an “unconscionable risk” he’ll be executed because of a neurological disorder rather than culpability.

www.yahoo.com

Kohberger’s disorder has a “significant impact” on his life, according to a comprehensive neurological evaluation conducted by Rachel Orr, a New Hampshire-based neuropsychologist.

The filing said that Kohberger exhibits “all the core diagnostic features” of autism, such as lifelong issues interacting with people. This includes a diminished ability to understand people’s reactions and difficulty identifying the emotional or mental state of others or how to respond appropriately.

Regarding Kohberger, Taylor said he displays “extremely” rigid thinking, lingers on specific topics, processes information on a “piece-meal basis,” and struggles to plan ahead, which affects their attorney-client relationship and ability to prepare for trial.

He also “demonstrates little insight into his own behaviors and emotions,” she added.

“No matter how helpful Mr. Kohberger may wish to be, it is simply not possible for him to aid counsel in a way that someone without the deficits accompanying autism spectrum disorder would be able to,” Taylor wrote.

Kohberger’s speech is “awkward,” Taylor said. Orr said that his tone and cadence are abnormal, his interactions lack fluidity, and “his language is often overinclusive, disorganized, highly repetitive, and oddly formal,” according to the filing.

He’s easily distracted by sounds or activity, often needs questions repeated and uses abrupt matter-of-fact phrases that could be considered rude, the filings said. He also has exhibited compulsions around hand-washing and other cleaning behaviors since childhood.

“These symptoms of Mr. Kohberger’s autism spectrum disorder will alienate him from the jury and significantly hamper his ability to make a persuasive showing of innocence or of mitigation,” Taylor said.

Well, now we have the explanation.

IMO it's not a great justice system if a defendant can alter the outcome of their case by being more likeable or more eloquent or charming.

If someone needs to be cross examined in front of the jury and they have communication setbacks, then that should be made clear and guidance offered, maybe they will need some disability adaptations, extra time, etc, but they must still answer to the court surely?

JMO MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Clinical psychologists, psychologists trained to work with people with mental illness, actually receive more training than psychiatrists do re: doing mental health diagnosis. Psychiatry these days is very focused on using drugs for treatment. In many cases when a treatment team approach, is used, the doctoral-level psychologist does the diagnosing while the psychiatrist does the prescribing.

SBMFF

While I agree with your overall point, this part is a bit inaccurate. Psychiatrists actually get more training on mental health diagnosis. Psychologists who do psychometric testing get more training on specific tests for various disorders, like the MMPI. But psychiatrists are required to know the mental health diagnoses and the nuances between them as well as the link to other medical diagnoses like the back of their hand so that they can prescribe medications appropriately. They are a lot more skills in diagnoses than average psychologists and the reason is that psychologists training is focused on THERAPY or psychometric testing. They're not doing a lot of therapy with patients with SMI, whereas psychiatrists are treating those patients on a daily basis.

The only time a psychiatrist would turn to a psychologist for diagnosis is when the patient is very complex requiring extensive neuropsychological testing. In those cases, a psychiatrist would refer to a neuropsychologist, not a regular psychologist.

 

[Miss Poovy]

SBMFF

While I agree with your overall point, this part is a bit inaccurate. Psychiatrists actually get more training on mental health diagnosis. Psychologists who do psychometric testing get more training on specific tests for various disorders, like the MMPI. But psychiatrists are required to know the mental health diagnoses and the nuances between them as well as the link to other medical diagnoses like the back of their hand so that they can prescribe medications appropriately. They are a lot more skills in diagnoses than average psychologists and the reason is that psychologists training is focused on THERAPY or psychometric testing. They're not doing a lot of therapy with patients with SMI, whereas psychiatrists are treating those patients on a daily basis.

The only time a psychiatrist would turn to a psychologist for diagnosis is when the patient is very complex requiring extensive neuropsychological testing. In those cases, a psychiatrist would refer to a neuropsychologist, not a regular psychologist.

Also, psychology is a fairly broad field as far as practicing - clinical, school, sports, developmental, etc. There’s also various levels of academic degrees, while a psychiatrist must be a medical doctor. Of course, psychiatry has specialist fields.

 

[Megnut]

Bryan Kohberger has autism. His attorneys say the diagnosis should remove death penalty

His attorneys argued that there is an “unconscionable risk” he’ll be executed because of a neurological disorder rather than culpability.

www.yahoo.com

Kohberger’s disorder has a “significant impact” on his life, according to a comprehensive neurological evaluation conducted by Rachel Orr, a New Hampshire-based neuropsychologist.

The filing said that Kohberger exhibits “all the core diagnostic features” of autism, such as lifelong issues interacting with people. This includes a diminished ability to understand people’s reactions and difficulty identifying the emotional or mental state of others or how to respond appropriately.

Regarding Kohberger, Taylor said he displays “extremely” rigid thinking, lingers on specific topics, processes information on a “piece-meal basis,” and struggles to plan ahead, which affects their attorney-client relationship and ability to prepare for trial.

He also “demonstrates little insight into his own behaviors and emotions,” she added.

“No matter how helpful Mr. Kohberger may wish to be, it is simply not possible for him to aid counsel in a way that someone without the deficits accompanying autism spectrum disorder would be able to,” Taylor wrote.

Kohberger’s speech is “awkward,” Taylor said. Orr said that his tone and cadence are abnormal, his interactions lack fluidity, and “his language is often overinclusive, disorganized, highly repetitive, and oddly formal,” according to the filing.

He’s easily distracted by sounds or activity, often needs questions repeated and uses abrupt matter-of-fact phrases that could be considered rude, the filings said. He also has exhibited compulsions around hand-washing and other cleaning behaviors since childhood.

“These symptoms of Mr. Kohberger’s autism spectrum disorder will alienate him from the jury and significantly hamper his ability to make a persuasive showing of innocence or of mitigation,” Taylor said.

He was pretty organized in purchasing a knife and a sharpener too. Forward thinking. Purchased a gift card to bury his purchase. Purchased coveralls, brought a balaclava. Forward thinking. Turned off his phone. Forward thinking.

All of the traits AT highlights aren't exclusive to ASD --

AT says he was "misdiagnosed" when he was young, which I take to mean he had a different diagnosis she disputes or she thinks he should have been diagnosed with ASD and wasn't, but either way, it indicates he was not diagnosed with ASD when he was young. AT is end-running this. Saying he should have been diagnosed with ASD as a child and still has traits and behaviors although IMO she falls short of providing any expert proof of such.

That's where the problem lies. Or one of the problems anyway. She's got a raft of them.

And no paddle.

JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

SBMFF

While I agree with your overall point, this part is a bit inaccurate. Psychiatrists actually get more training on mental health diagnosis. Psychologists who do psychometric testing get more training on specific tests for various disorders, like the MMPI. But psychiatrists are required to know the mental health diagnoses and the nuances between them as well as the link to other medical diagnoses like the back of their hand so that they can prescribe medications appropriately. They are a lot more skills in diagnoses than average psychologists and the reason is that psychologists training is focused on THERAPY or psychometric testing. They're not doing a lot of therapy with patients with SMI, whereas psychiatrists are treating those patients on a daily basis.

The only time a psychiatrist would turn to a psychologist for diagnosis is when the patient is very complex requiring extensive neuropsychological testing. In those cases, a psychiatrist would refer to a neuropsychologist, not a regular psychologist.

That's not been my experience in the field of clinical psychology, especially at inpatient facilities that employ doctoral level psychologists and a team approach (with the team containing psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and psychiatric nurses.)

While the field of clinical psyc did have a strong focus on psychometrics & the military after WWII, an additional focus on diagnosis and treatment has been pronounced in the latter half of the 20th century and the start of the 21st century. (I'm not talking about in the area of neuropsychology-- a lot of diagnostic work doesn't benefit from a neuropsyc focus, at least not with our current level of understanding) but rather generally in clinical psychology. Licensure laws also emphasize competence in diagnosis.

MOO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Well, now we have the explanation.

IMO it's not a great justice system if a defendant can alter the outcome of their case by being more likeable or more eloquent or charming.

If someone needs to be cross examined in front of the jury and they have communication setbacks, then that should be made clear and guidance offered, maybe they will need some disability adaptations, extra time, etc, but they must still answer to the court surely?

JMO MOO

What’s the felony burglary charge? Am I forgetting something?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

That's not been my experience in the field of clinical psychology, especially at inpatient facilities that employ doctoral level psychologists and a team approach (with the team containing psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and psychiatric nurses.)

While the field of clinical psyc did have a strong focus on psychometrics & the military after WWII, an additional focus on diagnosis and treatment has been pronounced in the latter half of the 20th century and the start of the 21st century. (I'm not talking about in the area of neuropsychology-- a lot of diagnostic work doesn't benefit from a neuropsyc focus, at least not with our current level of understanding) but rather generally in clinical psychology. Licensure laws also emphasize competence in diagnosis.

MOO

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Psychiatrists cannot become board-certified without an 8-hour exam on diagnosis of mental health disorders, this in addition to their licensing exams. They can't treat with medication if they don't know the diagnosis, so being intimately familiar with diagnosis is crucial.

 

[iamshadow21]

What’s the felony burglary charge? Am I forgetting something?

He entered the home, without permission, with intent to commit a felony.

MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Psychiatrists cannot become board-certified without an 8-hour exam on diagnosis of mental health disorders, this in addition to their licensing exams. They can't treat with medication if they don't know the diagnosis, so being intimately familiar with diagnosis is crucial.

Yes, an accurate diagnosis is needed before prescribing meds (or doing many kinds of "talk therapies.)
MOO