4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

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  • #561
I can't find this filing from the Prosecutors that says he HAS a diagnosis, though. I realize this article says there is such a thing, but I am unable to find it. I must be searching on the wrong words. I might have better luck on my computer.. Again, if anyone can point me to this, or any confirmation of an official diagnosis, please and thank you.
As a matter of fact, not only can I not locate this filing, but I fear it is originally an AI generated statement. We don't use AI here as MSM. But to show how it can get twisted I googled info on the filing.

This is where deception comes into play:

AI said: "In court filings related to the Idaho college murders case, prosecutors argued that defendant Bryan Kohberger was diagnosed with the least severe form of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) (level 1), which is characterized by "without accompanying intellectual or language impairment". This diagnosis, according to prosecutors, is a level 1 ASD diagnosis, the least severe form of the disorder."

This isn't even true. This was never said in the hearing the other day, nor any hearing.

And when I say deception I don't mean deception against our WS member posting this information, I mean deception as to AI generating it and then down the line it be used as proof.
 
  • #562
All of the discussion about "ASD" and BK, while interesting, really has no merit in the case, INMO. He is obviously capable of planning to commit a crime, as evidenced by his independent living skills. He doesn't live at home with Mama.

As for any merit a diagnosis makes during the penalty phase is also irrelevant to me, he is obviously cognizant of his behavior, and does not present as "incompetent" by any scale. INMO.

So, what is the point his defense is trying to make here?! Nothing. Just throwing out stuff randomly. Because they literally have nothing else.
I was just typing something very similar to post, so I will just reply here. I think this entire argument over whether BK is or is not autistic is probably ultimately not going to amount to a hill of beans, if the death penalty is still in play when this case goes to trial. By the time the jury hears all the evidence that will be presented, over 5 or 6 weeks likely, including the "inflammatory" photos of the brutal butchering of four innocent, sleeping and/or heavily intoxicated college students, in their own home, in the middle of the night, and all of the evidence the state will present that will point to only one person responsible, for the planning of, execution of, and attempted cover-up of, said brutal butchering, that person being BK, a college PhD student in criminology, I expect the jury will reach a verdict of guilty of 4 counts of murder in the first degree, in relatively short time, and I do not think "but my client is autistic", argued in the penalty phase by the defense, is going to make any juror less inclined to sentence him to death.

I believe the best chance BK has of living out his life in prison, if/when convicted, will be if Judge Hippler removes the death penalty from the case, which is what, I believe, the defense is hanging their weak hopes on. I do not believe that he will, but IF he does, I do not believe it will be due to any claim of autism of the defendant, but will be because of AT's Hail Mary about getting 68 terabytes of discovery that she claims that she hasn't always gotten in a timely fashion, and hasn't had time to read. JMO
 
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  • #563

Kohberger’s disorder has a “significant impact” on his life, according to a comprehensive neurological evaluation conducted by Rachel Orr, a New Hampshire-based neuropsychologist. Orr said that his tone and cadence are abnormal, his interactions lack fluidity, and “his language is often overinclusive, disorganized, highly repetitive, and oddly formal,” according to the filing.

The filing said that Kohberger exhibits “all the core diagnostic features” of autism, such as lifelong issues interacting with people. This includes a diminished ability to understand people’s reactions and difficulty identifying the emotional or mental state of others or how to respond appropriately.
This is dated March 4, 2025.

It doesn't matter what AT states, says or declares. Because Judge Hippler ON April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.
 
  • #564
This is dated March 4, 2025.

It doesn't matter what AT states, says or declares. Because Judge Hippler ON April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.
Thank you. It's not just me not being able to find it. That is what I remembered from the hearing, but thought I must have missed something.
 
  • #565
The State, in its responses, has only referenced the Defense's assertion that BK has been diagnosed with ASD, Level I.

The Defense has not yet provided the State (as emphasized by the judge's remark) with anything in writing, like from a doctor. Just AT's representation that it is so, and judging by the State's statements, it sounds like they have reason to question the veracity of the claims.

I have seen it before. In other cases, the Defense puffs up their expert and the State mows them down. They haven't evaluated the patient/defendant, they're drawing wide conclusions. Look at what AT is doing. She's taking a diagnosis of ASD Level I, which might not even be true, and all of a sudden she's talking about behaviors across the whole spectrum, by using words like "like". BK, because of his "significant deficits" he can't effectively participate in his own Defense. He was in a doctoral program, he got a 4.0 in his Master's program. He has no cognitive impairment. She's so far afield on this --

If she had a legitimate diagnosis, IMO the State would already have it in hand.

Something is fishy.

And I think it has everything to do with AT having to be cautious because the last thing she needs is a different diagnosis, one that is very, very bad for the Defense so she's on the balance beam, balancing an expert who was likely given a very limited scope and a whole lot of verbiage.

AT is trying hard to re-imagine BK at a Level III, without saying so. Stumbling, incapable, unintelligent. Which is crude way to characterize anyone.

And I take great offense to all of it. It borders over the edge of insulting, dehumanizing, and and as such is repugnant.

JMO
 
  • #566
The State, in its responses, has only referenced to the Defense's assertion that BK has been diagnosed with ASD, Level I.

The Defense has not yet provided the State (as emphasized by the judge's remark) with anything in writing, like from a doctor. Just AT's representation that it is so, and judging by the State's statements, it sounds like they have reason to question the veracity of the claims.


I have seen it before. In other cases, the Defense puffs up their expert and the State mows them down. They haven't evaluated the patient/defendant, they're drawing wide conclusions. Look at what AT is doing. She's taking a diagnosis of ASD Level I, which might not even be true, and all of a sudden she's talking about behaviors across the whole spectrum, by using words like "like". BK, because of his "significant deficits" he can't effectively participate in his own Defense. He was in a doctoral program, he got a 4.0 in his Master's program. He has no cognitive impairment. She's so far afield on this --

If she had a legitimate diagnosis, IMO the State would already have it in hand.

Something is fishy.

And I think it has everything to do with AT having to be cautious because the last thing she needs is a different diagnosis, one that is very, very bad for the Defense so she's on the balance beam, balancing an expert who was likely given a very limited scope and a whole lot of verbiage.

AT is trying hard to re-imagine BK at a Level III, without saying so. Stumbling, incapable, unintelligent. Which is crude way to characterize anyone.

And I take great offense to all of it. It borders over the edge of insulting, dehumanizing, and and as such is repugnant.

JMO
BBM
Bingo! BAM!
The State, in its responses, has only referenced to the Defense's assertion that BK has been diagnosed with ASD, Level I.

The Defense has not yet provided the State (as emphasized by the judge's remark) with anything in writing, like from a doctor. Just AT's representation that it is so, and judging by the State's statements, it sounds like they have reason to question the veracity of the claims.
 
  • #567
  • #568
This post isn’t about Insane at time of crime or Incompetent to stand trial. They are very different things and happen in very small minority/percentages of homicide cases going thru the U.S. judicial system/proceedings.
I think most members here
are aware when used in the context of homicide in the legal arena and understand the difference between the two. Links have been provided in previous thread posts that explains each and their differences in more detail.

Having said that, IMO most people whether they have legit/official diagnosis of ASD neurodivergence, developmental disorder, psychiatric/mental illness, personality disorder, any combination thereof, or have none of those diagnoses, KNOW that premeditated cold blooded murder/taking the life of another human being is wrong and against the law.

IMO there’s a population of individuals that regardless of knowing, simply do not care it’s wrong, illegal. They are selfish and irrational and violate others’ rights think they have a right to take another’s life. Everything is about them, their wants and needs, think they’re above the law and that rules and laws apply to everyone but themselves. The classification for these types of individuals in the DSM-V/DSM-V-TR (2022), is Anti-Social Personality Disorder aka psychopathy and sociopathy. These individuals need MH intervention and intensive long term treatment/therapy but they typically do not seek out treatment/therapy voluntarily.
So unfortunately many of these individuals are walking around undiagnosed, untreated, unmedicated (some try to self medicate with substances-alcohol, drugs) unless or until they enter the CJ system.

IMO not all individuals with ASPD commit the crime of murder, but I would say an ASPD individual with psychopathic traits is more apt/likely to commit murder than an ASPD individual with sociopathic traits.

Addressing ASPD specifically:
IMO ASPD individuals wreak havoc in families and the workplace, commit crimes of all types, some petty some more severe, are in and out through the proverbial revolving door in jails and prisons as they, especially ASPD psychopaths, are almost impossible to rehabilitate/don’t voluntarily seek nor comply with court ordered treatment and have high recidivism rate etc.

IMO ASPD individuals come from all walks of life, education level, and socioeconomic class and those that commit premeditated intentional murder of another human being(s) for whatever reason or no reason at all/just because i.e., to see what it feels like, or for whatever reason they perceive someone(s) has wronged them whether they have any connection to their victim(s) or not, feel totally justified in taking a life, convince themselves their victim(s) deserved to die/
their victim(s) made them do it-
if only you did or didn’t do ‘X’, I wouldn’t have had to kill you.
Suffice to say these individuals have zero insight, zero accountability for their heinous actions, victim blame and shame is common/the name of their game.

IMO premeditated cold blooded murderers such as in this case- ambushing and slaughtering 4 innocent college coeds in one fell swoop so to speak- even if the perp’s intent was to only kill one of the students, the fact he killed four shows the lengths of what he’s capable of when loses control-
kill anyone that gets in the way messes up my plans. Obviously an individual such as this is
antisocial but IMO these individuals capable of such atrocity, devastation/collateral damage to people and communities shouldn’t be categorized under ASPD as not only do they have the ASPD psychopathic traits in the DSM which frankly as if those aren’t bad enough, they are inhumane, have no true emotional feelings or ability to connect with others, emotionally connect/bond with others, lack a moral/ethical compass, are cold, calculated, cunning, diabolical and have absolutely no conscience whatsoever. And many get pleasure from having power and control over another person(s) life, inflict pain and cause suffering/death ergo add sadistic to the list.
In a nutshell, the worst of the worst disordered and extremely dangerous individuals in society.

This is why I think DSM medical experts and consultants should consider another revision to the manual and maybe add another classification under ASPD for these types of imo extreme/highly dangerous individuals and/or create new diagnosis altogether and classify separately. I realize it’s not as easy as it sounds and truly believe MH doctors providers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Neuropsychologists, MH professionals across the board have a very tough job are dedicated and do the best they can based on their education, training, knowledge, skills and tools at their disposal to help their patients, clients, society. I have the utmost respect for them and their chosen profession.

A big issue is that since most ASPD individuals do not voluntarily seek treatment, are usually court ordered/forced into treatment and can be so cunning, manipulative sometimes fool MH practitioners/providers/therapists. Some are intelligent/highly intelligent (IQ wise) and mask accordingly depending on any given situation they find themselves in or to whomever suits their needs to whatever end they deem benefits only themselves. So yes I do realize that MH providers have a very tough job examining, evaluating and identifying which of these people are capable of planning and committing cold blooded murder. I realize there are many factors involved, troubled backgrounds/childhoods, possible brain deficiencies/damage etc., and with many being so cunning, manipulative doubt that it’s possible at all to predict but maybe? in the future with potentially more advanced tools, testing, evaluation/assessment models,
will be easier to identify/help/treat? Maybe wishful thinking on my part but who knows.

At any rate, it’s my opinion that the perp in this case (BK imo), based on the methodical planning/premeditation and extreme violence perpetrated on the 4 innocent college student victims, and resulting collateral damage to the 2 surviving roommates, all the families, friends and the community, regardless of whether or not has been officially diagnosed with ASD, definitely has ASPD w/psychopathic traits undiagnosed (if ever officially diagnosed ASPD, it would be comorbid if he has official diagnoses for ASD, OCD) according to the current criteria in the DSM.
I’m afraid it goes way deeper though and which there is currently no official diagnoses or classification for in the DSM which the only way/word I can come up with to describe is Evil, sheer unadulterated Evil.

ETA- I expect if BK has an official diagnosis for ASD (which the state has apparently yet to see documented proof) it will be explained by the Judge to the Jurors that ASD and how it affects the defendant r/t how he might come across should not come into play/be considered by the Jury during the guilt phase of the trial. IMO ASD would only potentially come into play during the sentencing phase as possible mitigating factor against the DP which AT/team BK may or may not be successful arguing for.
ETA 2- DSM-V-TR link.


*All of the above is MOO based on years of following cases, researching and studying psychology and human behavior, conversations over the years with my Aunt who is a Psychologist (Retired now and still going strong at 92!), things I’ve read and learned from the many astute members/verified professionals here on WS.

**fun fact- my eldest went to elementary, Junior and Senior High School with Neuropsychologist Dr. Rachel Orr!
 
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  • #569
This is dated March 4, 2025.

It doesn't matter what AT states, says or declares. Because Judge Hippler ON April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.

The 28-page motion unsealed Tuesday, argues that sentencing Kohberger to death would violate his Eighth Amendment right to be free from excessive punishment because of his autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.

Global web icon
idaho.gov
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov › docs
[PDF]
 
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  • #570
Bryan Kohberger has autism. His attorneys say the diagnosis should remove death penalty

Global web icon
idaho.gov
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov › docs
[PDF]

moves this Court to strike the death penalty as a …


In Bryan Kohberger’s latest attempt to avoid the death penalty, his attorneys confirmed in a new court filing that the 30-year-old has autism — which they argued “exposes him to the unacceptable risk” that he’ll be wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to death.

In a 28-page motion unsealed late Tuesday, lead attorney Anne Taylor argued that sentencing Kohberger — charged with four counts of first-degree murder — to death if he is found guilty would violate his Eighth Amendment right to be free from excessive punishment because of his autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.
This the one I read. There is nothing about about a confirmation of an actual diagnosis of ASD that I can find. Does someone see something I am missing?
 
  • #571
Bryan Kohberger has autism. His attorneys say the diagnosis should remove death penalty

Global web icon
idaho.gov
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov › docs
[PDF]

moves this Court to strike the death penalty as a …


In Bryan Kohberger’s latest attempt to avoid the death penalty, his attorneys confirmed in a new court filing that the 30-year-old has autism — which they argued “exposes him to the unacceptable risk” that he’ll be wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to death.

In a 28-page motion unsealed late Tuesday, lead attorney Anne Taylor argued that sentencing Kohberger — charged with four counts of first-degree murder — to death if he is found guilty would violate his Eighth Amendment right to be free from excessive punishment because of his autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.
This is only AT stating this. 3-4-25

Hippler said she had no evidence to back it up. 4-9-25
 
  • #572
Has anyone posted this yet.
I'm off to work, so I haven't watched it yet.

 
  • #573
This the one I read. There is nothing about about a confirmation of an actual diagnosis of ASD that I can find. Does someone see something I am missing?
You aren't missing anything. 🙂
 
  • #574
I was just typing something very similar to post, so I will just reply here. I think this entire argument over whether BK is or is not autistic is probably ultimately not going to amount to a hill of beans, if the death penalty is still in play when this case goes to trial. By the time the jury hears all the evidence that will be presented, over 5 or 6 weeks likely, including the "inflammatory" photos of the brutal butchering of four innocent, sleeping and/or heavily intoxicated college students, in their own home, in the middle of the night, and all of the evidence the state will present that will point to only one person responsible, for the planning of, execution of, and attempted cover-up of, said brutal butchering, that person being BK, a college PhD student in criminology, I expect the jury will reach a verdict of guilty of 4 counts of murder in the first degree, in relatively short time, and I do not think "but my client is autistic", argued in the penalty phase by the defense, is going to make any juror less inclined to sentence him to death.

I believe the best chance BK has of living out his life in prison, if/when convicted, will be if Judge Hippler removes the death penalty from the case, which is what, I believe, the defense is hanging their weak hopes on. I do not believe that he will, but IF he does, I do not believe it will be due to any claim of autism of the defendant, but will be because of AT's Hail Mary about getting 68 terabytes of discovery that she claims that she hasn't always gotten in a timely fashion, and hasn't had time to read. JMO
I don't think he cares about the DP and wants a trial for its competitive aspects. And to see the crime photos.
 
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  • #575

What the new filing says about Kohberger:

It’s unclear if – or when – Kohberger was previously diagnosed with ASD, but the new filing cites an evaluation by a neuropsychologist, who found Kohberger “continues to exhibit all the core diagnostic features of ASD currently, with significant impact on his daily life.”

The neuropsychologist, hired by his defense, wrote in her evaluation of Kohberger that he displayed deficits in social-emotional reciprocity and “impulsive tendencies,” including “compulsions around hand-washing and other cleaning behaviors,” the filing says.

In the filing, attorneys for Kohberger describe him as a “highly distractable” man with an “intense gaze” who “demonstrates little insight into his own behaviors and emotions,” citing the medical evaluation performed by Dr. Rachel Orr.
 
  • #576

What the new filing says about Kohberger:

It’s unclear if – or when – Kohberger was previously diagnosed with ASD, but the new filing cites an evaluation by a neuropsychologist, who found Kohberger “continues to exhibit all the core diagnostic features of ASD currently, with significant impact on his daily life.”

The neuropsychologist, hired by his defense, wrote in her evaluation of Kohberger that he displayed deficits in social-emotional reciprocity and “impulsive tendencies,” including “compulsions around hand-washing and other cleaning behaviors,” the filing says.

In the filing, attorneys for Kohberger describe him as a “highly distractable” man with an “intense gaze” who “demonstrates little insight into his own behaviors and emotions,” citing the medical evaluation performed by Dr. Rachel Orr.
And this excuses murdering 4 defenseless people. All criminals lack insight. Its literally defining.
 
  • #577

What the new filing says about Kohberger:

It’s unclear if – or when – Kohberger was previously diagnosed with ASD, but the new filing cites an evaluation by a neuropsychologist, who found Kohberger “continues to exhibit all the core diagnostic features of ASD currently, with significant impact on his daily life.”

The neuropsychologist, hired by his defense, wrote in her evaluation of Kohberger that he displayed deficits in social-emotional reciprocity and “impulsive tendencies,” including “compulsions around hand-washing and other cleaning behaviors,” the filing says.

In the filing, attorneys for Kohberger describe him as a “highly distractable” man with an “intense gaze” who “demonstrates little insight into his own behaviors and emotions,” citing the medical evaluation performed by Dr. Rachel Orr.
This is an article posted on 3-6-25.

On 4-9-25 Hippler told thee defense AT she had no evidence.
 
  • #578
After watching the entire hearing through GHI (I just got finished), I have a couple of thoughts.

I have watched a number of murder trials / related hearings and very rarely have I seen the defendant emote much during exhibits or testimonies (excluding Alex Murdaugh, LOL). I always assumed their counsel had instructed them strongly on remaining stoic. How would BK’s “default” flat affect be any different?

I have watched several Phase 2 / sentencing hearings, when the defendant was still claiming innocence and not acting remorseful. How would BK’s “default” flat affect seem any different?

I really tried to only focus on BK during this hearing and IMO he seemed pretty normal — just a guy whose lawyer had told him not to react to anything. His chiseled facial structure and sunken eyes are because he is so thin not because he is allegedly on the spectrum. Autism also doesn’t give you a strong brow line. OMO.

That said . . . Once the last motion was being presented, to take the DP off the table completely because of his “disabilities,” I felt like he started moving his eyes around strangely, back and forth between counsel and the judge, also looking down and looking up. Was that my imagination? He also seemed more agitated — he moved in his seat some, moved his arms, touched his shirt collar, wrote a few notes. (Guess it’s human nature to react to your potential execution being discussed, or maybe after all those hours if he was taking meds he needed more?) At any rate, I would say he is capable of reacting. MOO.
 
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  • #579
P.S. I LOVE this judge. He seems really solid — fair and articulate. Seems to know his cases and listens very carefully.
 
  • #580
I can't either. I have avoided this trial like the plague, until yesterday. Yesterday, I tried to watch the defense team belaboring all their motions to suppress evidence, and please excuse him because suddenly he is autistic, poor baby. I finally turned the channel, because the urge to grab my television and stomp it to tiny bits was just too strong. God bless the judge and the prosecutors, I couldn't deal with this defense team. After the Judge tells them no, they still go on and on and on and on... Milking the taxpayers for bags of money.
Obviously, BK is the mastermind here, and they are his starstruck minions. :P The whole pointless dog and pony show enrages me. One irrational motion after another is abuse of the legal system, and it's running rampant. There should be a limit to how much time wasting and ridiculous muck that defense teams can throw at the court. It's despicable. Makes me glad I did not choose law as a career :/
The number and topics of defense motions made me angry, too, but probably better to err on this side so if convicted BK doesn’t have grounds for appeal based on inadequate representation. I agree with several others — the defense style and misrepresentations were infuriating. A lot of stuff they said made me want to throw my iPad across the room!
 
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