4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

[LetsSolvIt]

I’m feeling pretty sorry for the state of Idaho, if this shabby and amateur defense is being formulated by one of the alleged best DP lawyers in the state.

If you’re from Idaho, please forgive me, but it certainly appears this way to me.

“Shabby” is me being polite. Here in NYC we might call it “schlocky.” That’s Yiddish for low quality junk.

JMO

And Idaho tax payers are paying for his defense including all the experts. All the time wasted with motions may seem good for BK but they are billable hours for prosecution and defense.

Idaho citizens are paying big bucks for this on both sides, plus the most egregious cost of losing four beautiful young people, leaving their families and friends victims, and traumatizing countless others. OMO.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

No worries. The Garanimal tags will ensure the clothes match.

But the matching pumpkin set is wrong season.
He’s going to need a summer-into-Labor Day look.

 

[katydid23]

I can't remember - is there any indication of previous violent behaviour?

There were reports that he bullied and antagonised some of his high school friends. Reportedly put them in headlocks, was aggressive and scared them. He began to channel that anger and physical energy into boxing which was a good idea, imo.

 

[Warwick7]

.

 

[katydid23]

If AT really thinks BK has ASD, why wouldn't she track down a doctor who will say so? Not an supposition that maybe he would have been diagnosed as such as a gradeschooler, but an actual adult diagnosis so she can go hard at labeling it a mitigating disorder?

Because she can't. Or she would.

She's walking a tightrope.

JMO

Yes, she's walking a tight rope because if she does agree to a new assessment, what will they find?

Could they decide he is Borderline? Or has some kind of a cluster that would not be a good thing for the jury to learn about?

 

[katydid23]

Just for clarity, it was Hippler's call not to have witness testimony at the MIL hearing. From memory he made an order in this regard and asked that the parties submit affidavits which would be more than adequate for the purposes of the hearing. AT had her witnesses available via zoom, in case the judge chose to allow them to testify for clarification purposes. Something like that was also in his prior order IIRC.

Right, but I think Hippler made the call because he asked if they had the evidence to present at this time. And AT did not say YES, she was vague and said ' we could call him and see' kind of thing.

And Hippler wasn't taking that bait.

So he said she could question Agent Ballance out of jury presence instead. He knows Sy didn't bring any evidence that the State had BK's TA reports. If he did have them, AT would have said so and brought him to the stand. But she didn't answer affirmatively. IMO

 

[katydid23]

I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis. There are, however, many disorders that require tests to rule out other causes. For example, poor academic performance might be due to the presence of a learning disorder. But problems with vision and/or hearing could cause poor academic performance too and must be ruled out. Poor academic performance could also be caused by the disorder of Intellectual Disability (formerly called Mental Retardation) While a standardized IQ test is used in the diagnosis of ID, it cannot be used for diagnosis by itself. Aspects of adaptive functioning must also be assessed, often through observation.

Per the CDC "Diagnosing autism spectrum disorder (ASD) can be difficult because there is no medical test, such as a blood test, to diagnose the disorder. Doctors look at the child's developmental history and behavior to make a diagnosis."

Screening for Autism Spectrum Disorder

Screening and diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.

www.cdc.gov

The DSM-5 criteria for autism spectrum disorder can be found here. (DSM-5-TR clarification to the diagnostic criteria included changing "manifested by the following” to “as manifested by all of the following.")

Autism diagnostic criteria: DSM-5 | Autism Speaks

Read the full text for the diagnostic criteria of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5).

www.autismspeaks.org

While a particular ASD evaluator might use a "screening test" and include mention of it in his/her report, the idea that BK should have been "tested" for autism as a child doesn't really make sense to me regardless of AT's motivation. In looking at the diagnostic criteria it's hard to imagine a test or even a series of tests given to a young child that could substitute for observation of his behavior in various situations.
MOO

I never said there weren't tests. I said diagnosing ASD, like most mental and/or developmental disorders, can't be done on the basis of a single definitive tests or a group of tests alone. And I said as the CDC does, an evaluation for ASD doesn't have to include any traditional tests. I still say those things. Even the blurb for a commercially available observational device (ADOS-2) provided by another poster cautions it should be part of a "comprehensive evaluation" and cannot be used alone to make a diagnosis.

OK, I guess it is confusing because it seemed like you were saying there were not tests:

'I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis.'

So reading that statement above made me think you are saying there were no tests that were available or reliable. IMO

Clinical psychologists, psychologists trained to work with people with mental illness, actually receive more training than psychiatrists do re: doing mental health diagnosis. Psychiatry these days is very focused on using drugs for treatment. In many cases when a treatment team approach, is used, the doctoral-level psychologist does the diagnosing while the psychiatrist does the prescribing.

I would agree it's possible for an evaluation to focus only on ASD. At issue would be the referral question. Usually there are troubling symptoms and the goal is to determine why and if they are part of a known disorder. In that case, the referral question is fairly broad and looks at many possibilities. If BK was evaluated as a child, IMO the evaluation was probably broad but none of us can know for sure. But it doesn't have to be done that way.
MOO

 

[crhedBngr]

Wow, thought this was interesting...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1910822785313837153

Watching it now.

Thanks for posting.

JMVHO.

 

[Warwick7]

Watching it now.

Thanks for posting.

JMVHO.

Not alot, but a few new tidbits that we didn't know before.

 

[NCWatcher]

OK, I guess it is confusing because it seemed like you were saying there were not tests:

'I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis.'

So reading that statement above made me think you are saying there were no tests that were available or reliable. IMO

Those quoted sections I wrote were in response to different posts. So I didn't repeat the same words or exactly the same points in each. I'm sorry if that was confusing.

I said there are no presence/absence tests for ASD that are reliable. That's true for other mental/developmental/personality disorders as well. That's not to say there aren't tests-- tests that measure some aspects of the disorder in question. But no test can be used by itself to assign an ASD diagnosis. So I wasn't sure why posts seemed to keep saying BK needed to be "tested for ASD."

I also said assigning a valid diagnosis of ASD does not require tests. Not requiring tests doesn't mean tests don't exist that measure some aspects of the disorder. But, as I said above, no test can be used by itself to assign an ASD diagnosis. And a diagnosis can be reached without a test.

I also said that for me, "test" and "evaluation" aren't synonyms. Apparently they are for some posters. However, the company blurb someone posted about an observational guide/device to assess one aspect of ASD cautioned that test should not be used alone, it should be used as a part of a complete evaluation. If the words are synonyms the company is saying that test should be used as part of a complete test. I'm not sure that makes sense. And I'm not sure that those selling tests consider the words to be synonyms.
MOO

 

[Swansee]

Amidst all the talk and filings about BK's various conditions, I'm surprised we never heard anything about Visual Snow. Not even mentioned once. I would have expected the defense to have listed it along with his fine motor skills impairment.

 

[Nila Aella]

As a matter of fact, not only can I not locate this filing, but I fear it is originally an AI generated statement. We don't use AI here as MSM. But to show how it can get twisted I googled info on the filing.

This is where deception comes into play:

AI said: "In court filings related to the Idaho college murders case, prosecutors argued that defendant Bryan Kohberger was diagnosed with the least severe form of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) (level 1), which is characterized by "without accompanying intellectual or language impairment". This diagnosis, according to prosecutors, is a level 1 ASD diagnosis, the least severe form of the disorder."

This isn't even true. This was never said in the hearing the other day, nor any hearing.

And when I say deception I don't mean deception against our WS member posting this information, I mean deception as to AI generating it and then down the line it be used as proof.

BBM

The diagnosis was in a court filing.
The evaluation was given to the State.
JMO

3/17/25

As outlined by Dr. Orr in exhibit D7-B, Mr. Kohberger has multiple diagnostic conditions, identified by qualified doctors

Herein, I will discuss the subset of three conditions (autism spectrum disorder, developmental coordination disorder, and obsessive-compulsive disorder)

Autism Spectrum Disorder, level 1, without accompanying intellectual or language impairment. a. Mr. Kohberger has a current diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder.
For Bryan specifically, there is objective evidence of disrupted brain structure in several nodes of the social network. As outlined in detail in Exhibit 3, volumetric analyses of magnetic resonance imaging data for Bryan’s brain reveal several brain areas to demonstrate volume within the lowest 10th percentile

• Defendants Response to States Motion in Limine RE Neuropsychological and Psychiatric

4/2/25 States Request for the Evaluation

• States First Supplemental Request for Discovery Disclosure

4/7/25 D7-B was handed over to the State

• Order Sealing Defendants Notice RE Defense Expert Disclosure - Exhbit D7-B
• Stipulated Motion to Seal Defendants Notice RE Defense Expert Disclosure - Exhbit D7-B

JMO

 

[katydid23]

P.S. I LOVE this judge. He seems really solid — fair and articulate. Seems to know his cases and listens very carefully.

I particularly love the way he jumps in, and interrupts the attorneys, mid-sentence if necessary, to hurry them to the point. He doesn't like word-salad' so he just cuts in and says 'do you have evidence of that?' He doesn't allow them to waste his time dancing around the issues.

I think the jury is going to love him.

 

[katydid23]

Amidst all the talk and filings about BK's various conditions, I'm surprised we never heard anything about Visual Snow. Not even mentioned once. I would have expected the defense to have listed it along with his fine motor skills impairment.

I doubt the defense wants to go down that rabbit hole. If they dare to bring that up, the State might have an opening to bring in some of his alleged posts about how VS made him feel, and it is not a pretty description at all.

 

[Warwick7]

BBM

The diagnosis was in a court filing.
The evaluation was given to the State.
JMO

3/17/25

As outlined by Dr. Orr in exhibit D7-B, Mr. Kohberger has multiple diagnostic conditions, identified by qualified doctors

Herein, I will discuss the subset of three conditions (autism spectrum disorder, developmental coordination disorder, and obsessive-compulsive disorder)

Autism Spectrum Disorder, level 1, without accompanying intellectual or language impairment. a. Mr. Kohberger has a current diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder.
For Bryan specifically, there is objective evidence of disrupted brain structure in several nodes of the social network. As outlined in detail in Exhibit 3, volumetric analyses of magnetic resonance imaging data for Bryan’s brain reveal several brain areas to demonstrate volume within the lowest 10th percentile

• Defendants Response to States Motion in Limine RE Neuropsychological and Psychiatric

4/2/25 States Request for the Evaluation

• States First Supplemental Request for Discovery Disclosure

4/7/25 D7-B was handed over to the State

• Order Sealing Defendants Notice RE Defense Expert Disclosure - Exhbit D7-B
• Stipulated Motion to Seal Defendants Notice RE Defense Expert Disclosure - Exhbit D7-B

JMO

This was handed to the Prosecution on 4-7-25....

Two days later is the hearing. AT is trying to convince Hippler of BK's disorder.

Hippler responds strongly:

April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.

If your links up above are from an expert, why didnt AT pull it out and use it? Why didnt she use it as evidence before the Judge?

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but...many of saw Hippler chastise AT because she had no evidence.

 

[mrjitty]

Back to AJ about 5:35:40, but first the judge has a few words:

Judge--"And I'm not upset, but I, just for Mr. Ray's information, because he wasn't here the first day I started this trial with you folks. I said I don't want theatrics, I don't want accusations that aren't supported with evidence, about supposed bad conduct of the parties. You're all professionals, I respect you all, and the accusations he made in there are very concerning. The kinds of accusations if true would get people disbarred. And so without any evidence, and apparently sidestepping the clear explanation, he makes those, and so that doesn't make me happy."

AJ--"And to address the court's concerns of what's been raised, I think the only issue out there--I have the two search warrants. The state asked for the AT&T TARs in our search warrants. The state wanted that information for Mr. Kohberger. We did not receive it. I did not receive those records from AT&T. I do not have them. Thank you, Your Honor."

Judge--"There's not been a showing that those records were available and I think it would be unfairly prejudicial to try to impeach the testimony of the agent that somehow he hid or didn't provide or didn't use records that he didn't have available to him. So absent some factual showing that he had them available, I'm not going to allow questions about that and I'm not going to allow testimony about that. Now, if you want to voir dire him before he testifies in front of the jury I'll allow that. And if you show a factual finding and a factual basis for it, I'll allow it, but you haven't. At this point."

AT--"I appreciate the opportunity to ask the question outside the presence of the jury. Thank you."

So the judge basically accuses Sy Ray of fabricating a conspiracy based on speculation. Respect. Did Peter Tragos fall on his sword? I remember Peter claimed a guy like Sy Ray would not simply make this up?

This is why I decided not to follow this case closely anymore. What AT is doing is all too typical these days.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

After watching the entire hearing through GHI (I just got finished), I have a couple of thoughts.

I have watched a number of murder trials / related hearings and very rarely have I seen the defendant emote much during exhibits or testimonies (excluding Alex Murdaugh, LOL). I always assumed their counsel had instructed them strongly on remaining stoic. How would BK’s “default” flat affect be any different?

I have watched several Phase 2 / sentencing hearings, when the defendant was still claiming innocence and not acting remorseful. How would BK’s “default” flat affect seem any different?

I really tried to only focus on BK during this hearing and IMO he seemed pretty normal — just a guy whose lawyer had told him not to react to anything. His chiseled facial structure and sunken eyes are because he is so thin not because he is allegedly on the spectrum. Autism also doesn’t give you a strong brow line. OMO.

That said . . . Once the last motion was being presented, to take the DP off the table completely because of his “disabilities,” I felt like he started moving his eyes around strangely, back and forth between counsel and the judge, also looking down and looking up. Was that my imagination? He also seemed more agitated — he moved in his seat some, moved his arms, touched his shirt collar, wrote a few notes. (Guess it’s human nature to react to your potential execution being discussed, or maybe after all those hours if he was taking meds he needed more?) At any rate, I would say he is capable of reacting. MOO.

I haven't seen the coverage of his case and him seeming agitated (or not) etc but certainly it could be for any person when their possible execution is being discussed, they begin to show an emotional reaction either conscious / unconscious or displacement activity. Also there's issues such as spontaneous loss of bladder or bowel or gasping for air or vomiting even as a bodily reaction they'd have no little to know control over.

We have seen video footage of BK interacting and conversing in difficult conversations and how he handled that - with the traffic stop at the driving violation pull over. He seemed to be dogged and over-long in his questions and labouring his points certainly could be in line with ASD but not unusually over-reactive or under-reactive. Remarkable only as knowing he'd (allegedly) perpetrated this crime and it was only a matter of time before being apprehended.

 

[Sachi]

The State has adopted the Defense's language, presumably accepting the diagnosis of ASD, Level I, but not without seeking the data that backs this up.

We know how this works. AT found an expert who she hired TO pair BK with ASD, and it appears that this was achieved primarily by re-evaluating young BK by whatever means available.

BK is never going to be spared the DP for cognitive impairment which is why IMO AT is grouping all individuals with ASD, at all levels across the spectrum and pairing BK, who was likely not assessed for any other mental illness or personality defect/disorder (by design -- because that opens her up to a diagnosis of ASPD and the like, which has no exclusionary clause vis a vis the DP), with all of them, as if he has ASD Levels I, II, and III.

If her experts are admitted, I predict we'll learn that they met BK once, if that, or twice, if that, and one of them, on that day of trial. That she wasn't provided all of BK's records or asked to evaluate his mental and medical history, assess him globally or even render a diagnosis. AT is walking a very fine line.

If I hold up a chart and ask a person to show me how the dots connect (in support of a pattern I'm looking for), they will do that. I don't ask them if the dots could be connected in another way, if the data supports a different outcome, a better fitting diagnosis but a worse look for my client.

The State can and will, if need be and time and Court allow it, present a rebuttal witness to show how those same traits (the ones that apparently didn't result in an ASD diagnosis as a youngster) match other disorders better.

A mini trial over ASD vs ASPD, but I'm not seeing why the judge would allow it. They'd no legal basis (precedent) for either case to preclude the DP. It hasn't even been established that BK, as an adult, is Level 1, but he's assuredly not Level 3, with cognitive impairment, and/or with an IQ anywhere near the 70 threshold, which AT's language seems to slide him.

If BK functioned at that level, AT might have had feet stand on.

Here, she doesn't.

JMO

Hanging on to the idea of you hosting a Trial podcast

“If I hold up a chart and ask a person to show me how the dots connect (in support of a pattern I'm looking for), they will do that. I don't ask them if the dots could be connected in another way, if the data supports a different outcome, a better fitting diagnosis but a worse look for my client.”

 

[Sachi]

This is dated March 4, 2025.

It doesn't matter what AT states, says or declares. Because Judge Hippler ON April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.

These fact based comments from the judge at the hearing are very important to interject. It mitigates confusion about what has really happened vs what someone is thinking and the tangle of opinions . Moo

 

[Nila Aella]

This was handed to the Prosecution on 4-7-25....

Two days later is the hearing. AT is trying to convince Hippler of BK's disorder.

Hippler responds strongly:

April 9th 2025 stated:

Judge said: You've provided no expert to say he can't do this crime. All you've shown is a historical issue of not being able to tie his shoes.

Defense said: BK can't look remorseful through no fault of his own.

Judge said: Juries are instructed to rule only on evidence, not the defendant’s courtroom demeanor. It's not relevant. It's not evidence.

Defense said: media says he's evil, he's an incel.... dark eyes.

Judge said: but that's not autism.

If your links up above are from an expert, why didnt AT pull it out and use it? Why didnt she use it as evidence before the Judge?

The links come directly from the Case documents.

State of Idaho v. Bryan C. Kohberger

JMO

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but...many of saw Hippler chastise AT because she had no evidence.

Hearing

JHipp
expressed as it relates to me uh I didn't understand the reference to speed
at which the crime occurred well there's the the state there's a disclosure by
the state of one of their um detectives i understand the detectives statements and and you have in the report a reference that he has a historic uh fine motor uh skill uh issue um and you have no expert testimony that he would have been incapable of doing this

EM
well I don't I don't know that we would seek to offer an opinion that took it that far into the jury province about no capability to do this

but in terms of his his fine motor dexterity issues is a historic issue with some
fine motor dis uh uh disabilities like not being great at tying his shoes well

I disagree that that's all that the expert said the expert um indicates he has problems with dyspraxia and went into great detail about the issues that what she saw with fine motor dexterity as it presents to this day he did absolutely have those issues as a child and there are still things that are are present in in him

JMO