4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

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  • #361
My belief is that he started early to try and overcome each and every one of the symptoms of his condition. He did a little project on hidden disabilities at community college. He learned to drive. He tried illicit coping mechanisms but then took the road of personal discipline (changing his exercise and eating habits thoroughly).

He became a night runner first (I believe that was in late high school/early college years - perhaps continued for quite some time, we don't know). He became a night driver. The thing that limits VSS sufferers from night driving the most is encountering other drivers, coming in the opposite direction (they are apparently very sensitive to light and have a hard time with bright lights at night). He practiced all this. His car records show he drove quite a bit.

I can easily theorize/speculate that in order to be so disciplined about overcoming his issues, he also had a very rigid mindset, perhaps equipped with specific goals. I'm guessing the roads around Moscow were pretty dark at night, and that he chose times when there was little traffic. It would be interesting to know where, aside from near 1122 King Road, he was driving at night. Maybe he went out driving almost every night.

To me, this crime speaks of longterm homicidal fantasy combined with some sort of acute stressors that triggered immediate action. JUST a theory.

All of this was speculation, so

IMO.

IOW, he was his own "hero" for overcoming adversity (and everyone around him should have recognized that, he felt). For whatever reason, he disliked and had a hard time with women. He knew and knows how to "schmooze" but doesn't sustain actual friendships, and aside from his family, apparently has no longterm intimate relationships. He is competitive and self-absorbed. I also believe he spent a lot of time online, which may well put several nails in his figurative coffin.

JMO.

I also completely agree with what you've written here. From what we've learned about BK thus far it's slightly heartbreaking that this is a young man who tried so hard to get a grip and self-manage and control all his set backs. And he did so to great effect.

I think the tragedy is for people like BK that their emotional lack or differences in life can result in profound isolation and this is a huge set back for any living being. If he, like Elliot Rodger, became completely self-focused, bitter, resentful and started having vengeance fantasies at the same time his 'real' life was becoming untenable and all that he had tried to change and work for wasn't paying off, I can see this would be the perfect storm.

Of course it's all unforgivable and he must be served justice. It's just sad to see how some people's lives turn out and one wonders at what point they could have been reached or helped.
 
  • #362
Yes, I understood what you meant. I was more thinking out loud that I don't think that defense will hold much water MOO. There have been so many posts speculating that it will be a defense (not your post, I know). I think it's a loser argument but that's jmo. On the phone, my first thought when the pca became public was that he needed the gps to guide him back from his way out-of-the-way route back to Pullman and indeed this may be the only reason he took it with him. But, that's speculation too, of course.

jmo

It's not a defense. That's the point that GWNN and myself are trying to make.

Has nothing to do with the defense, in my mind. It's simply part of the fact pattern of this case.

IMO.
 
  • #363
My 20 w/VSS worked very hard on improving his sleep hygiene. He goes to bed between 9 and 10 pm every night and falls asleep quickly, limits his screen time, eats healthy, etc. And that had little to no effect on his VSS severity.

Ah, that's too bad. I'm so sorry. It turns out VSS sufferers also have a higher rate of floaters (which is indeed an ocular disorder). I'm assuming no genetic history in your family (there seems to be no known cause of it, right now). The new research that show some serotonin and other brain imbalances will likely lead to new vectors of treatment. Only about half of sufferers report improvement via sleep hygiene. Researchers are stumped. So frustrating.

IMO.
 
  • #364
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  • #365
MOO there is no error in the DNA.

The defense is using the pretext there is to can opener the way the geneology was done open, hoping to find error in the process, such as investigators used a database that is not public domain at some point, and then demand the DNA, which is a valid match to BK be suppressed.

If jury doubts because the DNA was not able to be presented BK MOO would be getting off on a technicaliity.

The error rate that Leah Larkin generally talked about doesn't look to even apply here, but her smoke is indeed suffusing the information deprived gag order atmosphere.
I don't expect there to be an error in the DNA either. No matter how much Ms. Larkin suggests that there might be.
 
  • #366
I completely agree. No way was it planted. Logically, the ways his DNA could have gotten on the sheath is
1. IF he came in contact with the sheath sometime and somewhere before the murders (not during the murders as there are apparently no other samples of his DNA at the scene, so it likely wouldn't have happened at 1122 King Rd - it would have had to happen before he put on the gloves he must have worn to prevent other touch DNA in the house, IF he is guilty.)
2. OR, if he is innocent, the real murderer came in contact with BK at some point and unknowingly transferred BK's DNA to the sheath at some point or even unknowingly came into contact with BK's DNA on some object such as exercise equipment or a table or something and then handled the sheath unknowingly transferring BK's DNA to the sheath.
3. OR, the ONLY other possibility I can think of is a DNA lab mistake as described by Dr. Leah Larkin. So I really feel this line of inquiry needs to be explored. I don't want it to turn into a cause for appeal if he is tried and found guilty because appeals are expensive. I'd rather this entire question be explored now BEFORE trial to put it to rest once and for all.

Anyone have any other ideas of how his DNA got on the sheath outside of these ideas?

All JMO.
So number 2 happens randomly, and the DNA is sent to the lab for analysis and eventual identification.

And in the mean time, randomly, BK's name also comes up because of his white Elantra being registered at W University?

And coincidentally, he happens to be driving around alone all night, in the area of the crime scene and his car is picked up leaving the scene of the crime? And his phone is turned off at the crucial time?

Are we to believe that his DNA randomly ended up on that knife sheath underneath a murder victim, which would be a one in a trillion chance---but on top of that, there is other incriminating evidence as well? What are the odds of that?

Number 3 is not a real possibility. Those things are double and triple checked. JMO
 
  • #367
I don't expect there to be an error in the DNA either. No matter how much Ms. Larkin suggests that there might be.
Imagine being an expert to bring discredit on Ortham Labs. What a sell out.
 
  • #368
Imagine being an expert to bring discredit on Ortham Labs. What a sell out.
I know experts have their place, but I have a pretty jaundiced view of them in general. I swear, if someone broke a story that playing a banjo with your feet caused global warming, there is some "expert" on that very narrow topic available to be on the air in under 5 minutes. And, sadly, some people are willing to say anything if the check has enough zeros on it. MOOooo
 
  • #369
I know experts have their place, but I have a pretty jaundiced view of them in general. I swear, if someone broke a story that playing a banjo with your feet caused global warming, there is some "expert" on that very narrow topic available to be on the air in under 5 minutes. And, sadly, some people are willing to say anything if the check has enough zeros on it. MOOooo

Expert my butt! JMOO
 
  • #370
I also completely agree with what you've written here. From what we've learned about BK thus far it's slightly heartbreaking that this is a young man who tried so hard to get a grip and self-manage and control all his set backs. And he did so to great effect.

I think the tragedy is for people like BK that their emotional lack or differences in life can result in profound isolation and this is a huge set back for any living being. If he, like Elliot Rodger, became completely self-focused, bitter, resentful and started having vengeance fantasies at the same time his 'real' life was becoming untenable and all that he had tried to change and work for wasn't paying off, I can see this would be the perfect storm.

Of course it's all unforgivable and he must be served justice. It's just sad to see how some people's lives turn out and one wonders at what point they could have been reached or helped.
I'm not a psychologist/behavioralist/expert, nada.

Perfect storms like this are happening everyday all around the world. For most of us it's a good cry and too much ice cream. We know some self harm. Others may act out in violent ways. But a quadruple murder?

And many have it way worse than BK. He grew up in a middle class home, supported, access to school and services and health, he had it relatively good.

I'd imagine that you'd have to be a sociopath (is it a gradient?) to even be triggered to get to this point. The posts about VSS support that. He clearly says he has no feelings for anyone including his close family members.

I can't even look at a fly that's lost it's wing because it breaks my heart, have never lifted my hand to anyone my entire life, and most certainly have never described humans like BK did in those posts. And I've been down.

BK's behavior seems like it's extremely rare.

MOO
 
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  • #371
Just filed: Amended Notice of Hearing by the Defense. One item has been removed from the motions to be presented on 18th August. Motion to Dismiss is gone!


ETA: Actually, was filed on Aug 10th but believe has only just been listed. I've been checking Cases of Interest page pretty much daily and I just saw it for the first time now. I'm sure I looked at the COI page yesterday and was not there. Moo

ETA x2: I suppose this doesn't necessarily mean Motion to Dismiss has been abandoned. It may be a decision was made by D, or a suggestion by the Court, that Motion to Dismiss is better heard separately (on another occasion) to the D's motion to Stay Proceedings? May be that as the two motions contradict each other - D moves to stay proceedings at the same time it moves to dismiss the indictment - Court has said No can do? May also be that Motion to Dismiss needs to be heard by another (higher?) Court as by my reading at least it addresses a constitutional/legislative issue in the main - a general issue with law and ICRs? Not a lawyer etc so just guessing on possible reasons. Moo

ETA x3: Or Motion to Dismiss has been heard and dealt with already in non-publicised hearing and dismissed by Judge or handed over to higher Court? Moo
 
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  • #372
I don't expect there to be an error in the DNA either. No matter how much Ms. Larkin suggests that there might be.

Professional witness. Script committed to memory.

jmo
 
  • #373
  • #374
I don't expect there to be an error in the DNA either. No matter how much Ms. Larkin suggests that there might be.

They had wayyyy too much help from the state and FBI to make a serious error in something like DNA.

Although this defense team looks like they will stop at nothing to get evidence thrown out and their client punished in the least possible way, I still think this is going to be a relatively easy prosecution in a trial... with a guilty verdict. That is unless, he doesn't just plead guilty to spare his family the embarrassment
 
  • #375
I also completely agree with what you've written here. From what we've learned about BK thus far it's slightly heartbreaking that this is a young man who tried so hard to get a grip and self-manage and control all his set backs. And he did so to great effect.

I think the tragedy is for people like BK that their emotional lack or differences in life can result in profound isolation and this is a huge set back for any living being. If he, like Elliot Rodger, became completely self-focused, bitter, resentful and started having vengeance fantasies at the same time his 'real' life was becoming untenable and all that he had tried to change and work for wasn't paying off, I can see this would be the perfect storm.

Of course it's all unforgivable and he must be served justice. It's just sad to see how some people's lives turn out and one wonders at what point they could have been reached or helped.

Your last sentence is pretty much the entire reason that I am interested in crime.

In the case of Kohberger, we have TapATalk messages where he says he's seen a specialist. Apparently a neurologist (but he's experiencing acute anxiety and depression and does not receive meaningful treatment for that).

And then, apparently, he goes to "rehab." After the heroin stint. And someone in his family said something about an eating disorder as well. This is in MSM, but the sources are a bit garbled. He was certainly socially isolated, per nearly every article about him in which reporters talked to classmates or "unnamed" family members.

Whether or not persons with these neuropsychiatric symptoms are more likely to be criminals, they are certainly facing challenges that others do not face, and IME, this leads to many negative outcomes.

The resistance of some people to receiving care for psychiatric symptoms is enormous and must be countered by those of us who know that (as in this case) certain brain conditions are beyond the control of the individual, and the sufferers can truly benefit from benign psychiatric intervention. By benign, I mean approaches that are medical and can be modified to suit most sufferers. I can't imagine living in a world of derealization or depersonalization, with or without the physical symptom of visual snow. Those are two very painful symptoms. Mental pain is real.

Kohberger may have been taught and believed that "will power" alone can change negative mental states. I wish that were true, but it's not. This worked for Kohberger until he found himself in a new setting, and in a very challenging real world situation. I think he ran up against his absolute mental limits and went berserk. A person with this ideation and this degree of animosity toward other people.

Four young people dead because of one person's inability to cope. He knew he had homicidal ideation - I wonder who else might have known, if anyone. If he had a therapist (which I doubt) he would have been teleconferencing with that person (and then decided not to mention that situation to the Judge when asked). I keep feeling a bit of shock that someone whose expressed the ideas that BK did in the TapATalk messages would not have been under longterm neurological and psychiatric care, given that his diagnosis warranted exactly that.

IMO. I know that no one can make another person seek help and it's ultimately all on him. I'm just thinking about the various ways that some of us (teachers in particular) can be more aware and helpful in situations like this one.
I'm not a psychologist/behavioralist/expert, nada.

Perfect storms like this are happening everyday all around the world. For most of us it's a good cry and too much ice cream. We know some self harm. Others may act out in violent ways. But a quadruple murder?

And many have it way worse than BK. He grew up in a middle class home, supported, access to school and services and health, he had it relatively good.

I'd imagine that you'd have to be a sociopath (is it a gradient?) to even be triggered to get to this point. The posts about VSS support that. He clearly says he has no feelings for anyone including his close family members.

I can't even look at a fly that's lost it's wing because it breaks my heart, have never lifted my hand to anyone my entire life, and most certainly have never described humans like BK did in those posts. And I've been down.

BK's behavior seems like it's extremely rare.

MOO

It is the only case of its kind that I can think of, although clearly this case is up there with many other inexplicable cases. The OJ case was not inexplicable. BTK is pretty much...inexplicable. Ted Bundy is another one where people have had near identical upbringings and not become serial killers.

There's so much we don't know about killers. There's also the Happy Face Killer (Jesperson) for whom it was purely opportunity - he started with rape, rapidly proceeded to murder, and when no one suspected him and he worked out a way of being nearly un-catchable, he just kept doing it. I believe that Jesperson is likely one of those with issues in the moral/decision-making part of his brain.

With Kohberger, it's still a mystery. I have this "he imploded" theory based on what I know of his life history - it's a very thin theory.

Why do we not all "implode"? I mean, I have gotten mad enough to stomp around the house muttering. Most men have clenched their fists and at least thought about punching someone, once or twice (even if they have to reach through a TV screen).

But what makes someone murder four young people, strangers or near strangers?

Mass murders of strangers are exceedingly rare and usually ideologically motivated, according to the research done using the US mass murderer database. A few are sexually motivated (like Speck's murder of the nurses, but that was likely also ideological).

Mass murders are usually either family annihilation OR attached to some bizarre political ideology (the Vegas shootings, many others). Some of the mass murderers are young (school shooters, etc). These murders have something of the "school shooter" to them - but with a knife. That's the only set into which I can (kind of) push Kohberger. And he's not that young, although his mental age is likely younger than 28, due to few enduring adult relationships outside his family.

This is all my opinion and speculation. One thing we do know about those whose brains don't process ethics/morality very well is that they need hard limits. They need to be told what's wrong and, well, punished for it. They DO care about themselves and their own comfort, and sometimes, they care about their immediate families as well - even if they are willing to hurt them in a terrible fashion, as Kohberger has done. When I think about him standing silent, even though I understand the legal reasons, I can't imagine what it would be like to be his parent in that moment.

IMO.
 
  • #376
I know experts have their place, but I have a pretty jaundiced view of them in general. I swear, if someone broke a story that playing a banjo with your feet caused global warming, there is some "expert" on that very narrow topic available to be on the air in under 5 minutes. And, sadly, some people are willing to say anything if the check has enough zeros on it. MOOooo

I think the defense and prosecutors use of "experts" to tout their side of the case gives a warped view of experts.

I'd definitely want an expert designing the bridges I drive over, the planes I fly in, the lawyer to defend me, etc. and I don;t want the paper boy giving me financial advice.
 
  • #377
Experts. Playing Banjoes?
... experts... I have a pretty jaundiced view of them in general. I swear, if someone broke a story that playing a banjo with your feet caused global warming, there is some "expert" on that very narrow topic available to be on the air in under 5 minutes. And, sadly, some people are willing to say anything if the check has enough zeros on it. MOOooo
snipped for focus @maskedwoman
Then the next expert would argue that global warming is not caused by banjo playing w the FEET, but by playing only w the TOES.

Not picking on experts in all fields but reading the book below, 35 + yrs ago, was thought provoking. And lots of laughs.
_______________________________________
From an Amazon review: "
"... a couple of thousand other examples of expert misunderstanding, miscalculation, egregious prognostication, boo-boos, and just plain lies.
The experts have been wrong about everything... time, space, the sexes, the races, the environment, economics, politics, crime, education, the media, history, and science."
"The Experts Speak : The Definitive Compendium of Authoritative Misinformation" by Christopher Cerf.

https://www.amazon.com/Experts-Speak-Definitive-Authoritative-Misinformation/dp/0679778063 1998 ed.
 
  • #378
I'm not a psychologist/behavioralist/expert, nada.

Perfect storms like this are happening everyday all around the world. For most of us it's a good cry and too much ice cream. We know some self harm. Others may act out in violent ways. But a quadruple murder?

And many have it way worse than BK. He grew up in a middle class home, supported, access to school and services and health, he had it relatively good.

I'd imagine that you'd have to be a sociopath (is it a gradient?) to even be triggered to get to this point. The posts about VSS support that. He clearly says he has no feelings for anyone including his close family members.

I can't even look at a fly that's lost it's wing because it breaks my heart, have never lifted my hand to anyone my entire life, and most certainly have never described humans like BK did in those posts. And I've been down.

BK's behavior seems like it's extremely rare.

MOO

We can't pretend to know what's going on in someone's head like BK. He may not even understand. I empathize with him because he seems to have tried to help himself to no avail. It is difficult to hold on to that empathy long-term when examining his (alleged) actions.

I read this early on to maybe try to understand the world from the view of someone who is off in this way.

 
  • #379
At most points in time, the "experts" know more than the populace.

I'm not speaking about paid legal experts, but people who work among their peers and espouse methods known to the expert community. Like neurosurgery - I wouldn't go to a non-expert neurosurgeon and I'm sure that the neurosurgeons of the 1950's would look like hacks compared to the best of them working today. Of course, people *do* sometimes go to non-expert brain surgeons (look up trepanation - still practiced, even in the US, sometimes.)

Take the fact that long ago, it was established (by an expert) that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe, but instead, revolves around the Sun. Copernicus was at the time the only person who knew this or taught it. It took quite some time before even the university-educated got the idea. Knowledge is a series of revolutions and most of us are behind the curve and do not know as much as we could.

So Copernicus thought the "known universe" was just our solar system (he theorized there could be more - but he KNEW we revolve around the Sun). He's an expert that is later proved wrong. The entire Solar System is also moving, etc.

That's how science and expertise work. They are imperfect, but way better than the alternative.

IMO.
 
  • #380
At most points in time, the "experts" know more than the populace.

I'm not speaking about paid legal experts, but people who work among their peers and espouse methods known to the expert community. Like neurosurgery - I wouldn't go to a non-expert neurosurgeon and I'm sure that the neurosurgeons of the 1950's would look like hacks compared to the best of them working today. Of course, people *do* sometimes go to non-expert brain surgeons (look up trepanation - still practiced, even in the US, sometimes.)

Take the fact that long ago, it was established (by an expert) that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe, but instead, revolves around the Sun. Copernicus was at the time the only person who knew this or taught it. It took quite some time before even the university-educated got the idea. Knowledge is a series of revolutions and most of us are behind the curve and do not know as much as we could.

So Copernicus thought the "known universe" was just our solar system (he theorized there could be more - but he KNEW we revolve around the Sun). He's an expert that is later proved wrong. The entire Solar System is also moving, etc.

That's how science and expertise work. They are imperfect, but way better than the alternative.

IMO.

I am married to an expert. No disrespect to experts. But if you have a degree in plant botany I don't understand how that makes you a genetic genealogist. So not an expert, no? JMOO

Leah Larkin

Her language is biologist turned genealogist.
 
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